Super disappointed with my Samsung UN65ES8000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 09-13-2012, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I received my UN65ES8000 yesterday. I tried various different picture settings found both in this thread and elsewhere on the web. The vertical banding issues are driving me nuts. I only really see it on light scenes and during motion. I first noticed it watching an episode of Top gear where Jeremy was driving a Ferrari in the snow. From that point on, my eye is drawn to it any time there is fast motion on a light background. I'm seeing it on the Chicago vs. Green Bay game tonight as well. It's slight, very faint, but it's there.

Overall the picture quality on this set is amazing, but this is going to drive me nuts and I can't live with it. I called the store I bought it from and they're offering a replacement, but from what I've read it sounds like this is just par for the course with Samsung these days. I looked at the Panasonic VT50 in the store, but to be honest I found the picture quality on that set to be terrible. I've never really liked plasmas to be honest. I have really finicky eyes and even at proper viewing distances I feel like plasmas always have a look like someone put screendoor mesh over them.

This Samsung I bought to replace my 2003 65" Mitusbishi CRT rear projection set. I *loved* that TV, but the Red CRT cannon died and it was time to let it go.

This set has an August 2012 build date on it in case anyone is interested.

If I were to get a different model, what should I be looking at that compares with the PQ on this set? I'm really let down by this, as I bought this after looking at the 55" version in the store and decided that screen looked better than any other in there. For $3500 I can't live with this though.
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post #2 of 17 Old 09-13-2012, 07:30 PM
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The plasma Samsungs exceed the lcd Samsungs IMHO, why I have a Samsung plasma (PN59D8000). I just don't like the lcd look much, and throw in some flashlighting and clouding issues and they're no longer in consideration at all. Also, judging pq in a store is a mistake (unless you're in control, were you in control of lighting, source and did you change the settings from demo modes at all?)

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post #3 of 17 Old 09-13-2012, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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It was in a big screen store, and he had the place pretty dimmed down. I messed with the PQ to my hearts content.

Now that I think about it, a buddy of mine just bought a Samsung Plasma, and while I didn't get a chance to play with it much, I really did dig the PQ on it. I'll have to give those a look. I'm really bummed, other than the banding, this set is awesome, but I've read that the banding is due to the edge lighting on these displays, is that accurate or just more internet lore? If it's truly a QC issue, I have very low faith that a replacement of this set will be any different.
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post #4 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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They're replacing the TV, delivering it tomorrow (on a Saturday no less, great service). I hope it's better, but I have very low confidence that it will be based on the stuff I'm reading with this latest batch.
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post #5 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 12:36 PM
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Moondoggy did you try adjusting any of the settings? What pic mode did you have tv on? Returning the set after one day is a little extreme IMHO . Good luck with the new set but just a word of advice, spend a week or so with the new set, try some of the settings that are posted or get it calibrated and I think you'll find a set you can live with. Oh and take this forum with a grain of salt some of these fine folks are a little OCD with their TV watching.biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 01:00 PM
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vertical banding is common on Samsung TVs that have the S-PVA panel (which I believe yours does); however, on a good sample of your set it should not be noticeable with regular program material like movies and TV shows... please be aware an exchange may result in a set that is similar or even worse in terms of banding and other screen uniformity issues you might not even have right now

banding has nothing to do with edge-lit LED backlighting (it is rather a panel issue), but stuff like flashlighting and clouding is more common/severe on such sets... one of the reasons I believe the EH series Samsung LEDs are better than the ES series


you can check what panel type you have by looking at the white sticker on the box with the barcode... near the barcode it should read version and then show four characters (two letters followed by two numbers)

Txxx means a Samsung S-PVA panel (examples: TS01 and TH02)
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post #7 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollTide2011 View Post

Moondoggy did you try adjusting any of the settings? What pic mode did you have tv on? Returning the set after one day is a little extreme IMHO . Good luck with the new set but just a word of advice, spend a week or so with the new set, try some of the settings that are posted or get it calibrated and I think you'll find a set you can live with. Oh and take this forum with a grain of salt some of these fine folks are a little OCD with their TV watching.biggrin.gif


I tried every mode and custom settings found on the web and this forum. I didn't go out of my way to find this either, it jumps out at me during motion scenes with light backgrounds and is really bad on football games. It's slight, I'll admit, but it is a problem.

It doesn't have any flashlighting or clouding that I can see. Other than the banding, the screen is remarkable and crisp.

They're bringing a new TV tomorrow, and I will make sure that one isn't worse before they take the old one, but honestly if it's the same or I notice differences, I'm going to just get a different brand. My Sony XBR2 doesn't show any of what I'm seeing with the same source material. I know it's a different screen and stuff, but at the end of the day I'm paying a lot of money for a screen and I won't accept something that drives me nuts when I'm watching it; I disagree with the "extreme" comment for that reason.

I really wish my Mitsu didn't break.
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post #8 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 03:41 PM
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Did you consider getting a Mits 72" DLP unit?
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post #9 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I never cared for the DLP's. I like the picture on the CRT RP units, but not the DLP. They look washed out to me.
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post #10 of 17 Old 09-14-2012, 09:55 PM
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its a samsung, what did you expect
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post #11 of 17 Old 09-15-2012, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Second unit was worse than the first. I'm going to give a VT50 another chance. This sucks.
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-13-2012, 10:44 AM
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LOL, and people tripped on me when I gave SHAP 70" 847 a chance. Best TV I've ever owned and I also have a 51" SAMSUNG Plasma. All I had to do with my SHARP was calibrate it and it was set! I could care less about it being a "SMART TV" although it is also, because if you skype, facebook, tweet on a TV you're weird. The only apps that matter are the video viewing ones.
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post #13 of 17 Old 12-13-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ondoggy View Post

I'm paying a lot of money for a screen and I won't accept something that drives me nuts when I'm watching it; I disagree with the "extreme" comment for that reason.

You shouldn't accept less. Please don't be distracted by anyone who might think you're being OCD or extremely anal about it.. It's $3500 for eff's sake!! It's ENTIRELY upto the TV manufacturer to ensure the product is top notch at this price. You can get a 65" LED 3D TV for $2000. The reason you're spending the $1500 extra is to have absolutely no PQ issues to deal with.

Insert pithy comment here
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post #14 of 17 Old 12-13-2012, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RiverSide View Post

You shouldn't accept less. Please don't be distracted by anyone who might think you're being OCD or extremely anal about it.. It's $3500 for eff's sake!! It's ENTIRELY upto the TV manufacturer to ensure the product is top notch at this price. You can get a 65" LED 3D TV for $2000. The reason you're spending the $1500 extra is to have absolutely no PQ issues to deal with.

Thanks. FWIW I ended up having the store replace it with a Panasonic VT50, sorry for never reporting back. I paid a little bit of a price difference, but I'm really happy with the TV. I don't think the picture is quite as crisp, but it's a damn fine TV and I expect it to last me a long time.
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post #15 of 17 Old 12-13-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

vertical banding is common on Samsung TVs that have the S-PVA panel (which I believe yours does); however, on a good sample of your set it should not be noticeable with regular program material like movies and TV shows... please be aware an exchange may result in a set that is similar or even worse in terms of banding and other screen uniformity issues you might not even have right now
banding has nothing to do with edge-lit LED backlighting (it is rather a panel issue), but stuff like flashlighting and clouding is more common/severe on such sets... one of the reasons I believe the EH series Samsung LEDs are better than the ES series
you can check what panel type you have by looking at the white sticker on the box with the barcode... near the barcode it should read version and then show four characters (two letters followed by two numbers)
Txxx means a Samsung S-PVA panel (examples: TS01 and TH02)

Do you know what the USxx panels are?

Also what do you make of (from another thread):
I was wondering what everyone sees if they use Menu->Support->Self Diagnosis->Picture Test?

If you look at the orange soccer ball at the bottom right and then blue bucket to the left of that do you notice that every other 'scanline' going across the soccer ball is brighter orange than the one above and below it and that for the bucket it is every other line is a brighter shade of blue? If you don't notice that from normal distance, what about if you go close to the screen? Trying to figure out the odd vs even scanlines putting out somewhat different shades even when all are fed the same color issue that some sets have. Thanks.

Yes/No:
TV size:
Panel Type (SQ01,HS01,US02, etc.):

My results:
Yes, pretty clearly so. The object seem to have horizontal stripes running across them, every other scanline is clearly a brighter shade.
55" (ES7100)
US02

Someone else's so far:
No, not at all.
60" (ES8000)
HS01 (Sharp panel that appears to be used in all 60" sets)
and
No.
55"
TS01

(one issue that first appeared in LCD sets starting with Samsung SQ C-series panels (I'm not 100% sure but I don't sets that used the AU panels had it), became even more prevalent in D series and still remains, to a lesser degree on average, with the ES series. It also shows up in recent SONYs and some others, because they also use a lot of Samsung and some of the same other panels, I believe.

HORIZONTAL ODD/EVEN SCANLINE STRIPING:

(this sounds almost like it might be related to the vertical banding on green channel for LCD projectors issue that you listed, only in that case they seemed to have put down 1" wide columns of greens which might not have been well calibrated to each other and here it is odd vs even rows, every other horizontal line across the screen)

If you feed a solid block of color to a set since it is the same color, obviously all scanlines should show the same color. However, starting with the new panel type they came out with for some C-series sets there seems to be a major manufacturing problem they are having with them. They appear to lay down the even and the odd scanlines separately or something like that during the manufacturing process and appear to have a hard time calibrating them together since the even and odd scanlines tend to not respond the same way to the same signal, at least for certain green signals.

It seems to affect one of the green sub-pixels. On problem sets you can notice that if you look in an area of solid color every other scanline will have one of the green subpixels lit more brightly so you get a sort of dithering of sorts, but it is not in any sort of cross or offset pattern it is straight across with odd scanlines differing from even.

The difference between odd and even scanlines may not be uniform across the screen. It might be more apparent on the top half than the bottom half or top right than lower left. This I believe pretty much proves it is not done on purpose. On my ES7100 if I drag a solid box of orange around the screen it looks like a nice solid smooth color as it should on the lower left but it has horizontal strips going across it if I drag it to the top right where it looks like it was painted with every other scanline having used a different shade of orange. Elsewhere on the screen it is intermediate, still showing up but a bit less once you start getting closer to the lower left quadrant.

On C and D series it tended to show up most of all in various yellow and oranges and yellow tans but would also show in certain blue-greens etc. It was quite severe on some sets, even many or most D sets, It lent a sort of rougher or grainier or more pattered look to things. Nice smooth images would appear as if the signal was highly dithered in a very poor way (dithered scanline by scanline which really jumps out at the eye compared to checkboard pattern). Ironically, if you sent it an image that was not a solid block of color but striped with odd and even lines not quite the same color you make it appear closer to as if a solid block of color was being displayed! With the C series it seemed to be super rare on 800 or 8000 level sets and more common on 600 and 6000 series (almost like they were picking the less defective panels for the top models???). Even something like a traditional Windows folder icon, sort of a touch yellow tan, would not look smooth but would have very fine horizontal stripes running across it. The stripes would look thinner than a scanline.

If you took a macro photo of a screen showing a solid block of orange yellow you could very clearly see that every other scanline had one of the green sub-pixels putting out a different level of green!

At least from what I saw at my local Best Buy the D series suffered even worse from this and instead of maybe 40% of sets it seemed like 80% had it. With the ES series it looks like maybe 20% have it badly and another 20% have it to a lesser degree. Hard to say for sure based on so few samples. It appears to be noticeable on fewer different shades of colors with the ES series, for the most part.

The ES series mostly seem to have it to a less jarringly visible degree, although I did see one 8000 set that had it in spades and it looked so much less smooth than the ES set next to it that was all but free of it.

On the set's built-in test image under Support->Self Diagnosis-Test Picture it actually shows up very easily. Look at the blue bucket and orange ball on the bottom right. They have lots of perfectly horizontal stripes cutting across them. I would bet on a monitor without any striping issues there would not be such a look at all. There is a SMALL chance the actual image they use has those stripes across those objects but that would be a weird image, even so, that, at least, gives a good idea of what the effect looks like.

It doesn't matter what source or mode are used.


It seems they dumped out tons of defective panels during their D series release, quite a few with their C series release (I don't think any of the AU or non-Samsung panel C series sets had it only some of the ones with the samsung SQ panels, many of those had it but I also saw ones free of it too, the SQ had deeper blacks on the one plus side), and perhaps smaller numbers with their ES series release (and it doesn't tend to stand out quite as much when sets do it have, other than the one ES8000 I saw in one store that it had it in absolute spades). It seems many people are so used to crappy signals they have all just figured it is in the signal or maybe they just wrote it off as CRT-like visible scanlines or something even though it is nothing to do with that at all, of course, and not defective panels. I also have seen it on a lot on say Sony 850 TVs which I'm almost positive use Samsung Panels. Quite a few C and tons of D series sets that just looked plain out nasty with this issue. Sadly most people just thought it was the signal and not the set doing it so it only received scattered attention on the net (same thing on a monitor would've had howls of protest everywhere) otherwise it may have begun and ended with the C series SQ panels. Scanning through stores the ES look better with only a very few looking 100% out and out nasty, but I still see what seems like at least 30%-50% have it to a less objectionable but still slightly annoying degree to one level or another.


On a set that has it badly you have to sit so far back that your eyes can no longer come close to seeing a full 1920x1080 amount of detail for it to begin to blend away and average out into appearing smooth. On a set that has it to a milder degree it will mostly avg out and not be much noticeable on many shades but will still be faintly seen on some at a distance where you can just make out full 1920x1080 detail and show up more readily if you sit just a hair closer even. In on local BB they have an ES set with virtually none of it and one with tons of it side by side and that really makes it apparent, the one leaves everything natural and smooth and the other looks grainier and harsher and all stripey on solid blocks of many colors.

This does not affect the 60" sets since they appear to all use totally different panes, I believe Sharp makes all 60" panels.

I've never seen any computer monitor with this issue ever. And never saw any HDTV of any type ever have it until the arrival of the C series and the new panel type from Samsung. It seemed to peak in prevalence with the D series. It seems to occur less often with the ES than with the D series and less severely, for the most part, when it does occur than with the C or D series. And it not just a Samsung set thing either since once Sony/etc. started getting the newer type panels from Samsung their sets started showing it too now. I've seen way to few samples to really say but it seems like it might be more common on the current Sony line than the current Samsung ES line with the Sony 850 and such seeming more like the D Samsungs perhaps. But it's hard to base things off of sample sizes less than a handful.

I did notice that a C-series block diagram said they split the input image into even and odd 'scanlines' so they could parallel process things and get stuff done twice as fast, maybe when they put them back together they are not calibrating the D to A stage between even and odd scanlines well? But why do they seem to have no problem getting red and blue adjusted perfectly and only just certain signal levels of green?


It just seems to me the most basic of things that if you send something a block of a solid color that 'scanlines' adjacent should produce the same shade and not every other line a brighter shade of it! Until 2010 I never saw a single full 8bit per color screen of any type, brand, price ever, monitor or TV, do anything less no matter how cheap.


OK, then what about this test:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1172272

Look at the nice sunset photo, turn your browser into a small window and center the photo so you can move the sunset sky part around the screen. Looking up close, torture test why not 2'-'3 away just ot be sure you are not missing what I am talking about, does the sky ever get super-fine single pixel high stripes of slightly different shades or pinks/oranges going across it? Does it have a totally smooth feeling or sort of a gritty look?

On my ES7100 if I move that to the bottom left quadrant the sky looks smooth as sky, if I move it to upper right quadrant I see fine horizontal lines running across the sky, every other scanline shows a slightly brighter shade of the scanline above or below it. mad.gif Upper left and lower right quadrants on the display it's intermediate, definitely there but fainter. On my PC monitor it looks smooth anywhere on screen.)
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post #16 of 17 Old 12-31-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ondoggy View Post

I received my UN65ES8000 yesterday. I tried various different picture settings found both in this thread and elsewhere on the web. The vertical banding issues are driving me nuts. I only really see it on light scenes and during motion. I first noticed it watching an episode of Top gear where Jeremy was driving a Ferrari in the snow. From that point on, my eye is drawn to it any time there is fast motion on a light background. I'm seeing it on the Chicago vs. Green Bay game tonight as well. It's slight, very faint, but it's there.
Overall the picture quality on this set is amazing, but this is going to drive me nuts and I can't live with it. I called the store I bought it from and they're offering a replacement, but from what I've read it sounds like this is just par for the course with Samsung these days. I looked at the Panasonic VT50 in the store, but to be honest I found the picture quality on that set to be terrible. I've never really liked plasmas to be honest. I have really finicky eyes and even at proper viewing distances I feel like plasmas always have a look like someone put screendoor mesh over them.
This Samsung I bought to replace my 2003 65" Mitusbishi CRT rear projection set. I *loved* that TV, but the Red CRT cannon died and it was time to let it go.
This set has an August 2012 build date on it in case anyone is interested.
If I were to get a different model, what should I be looking at that compares with the PQ on this set? I'm really let down by this, as I bought this after looking at the 55" version in the store and decided that screen looked better than any other in there. For $3500 I can't live with this though.


I have the same TV as well, but have had no problem in tems of picture viewing. Actually, I had a Plasma before, and it looks way better than it. However, the sound quality I would say is very WEAK compared to the Plasma. My old Sony Plasma had amazing sound quality.

I have been trying to figure out soundbar options. for my Samsung and the Samsung Blu Ray player. All I need is something where I can control the volume and TV with my Cable TV remote and has decent HDMI connections. I basically don't want to buy something where I have to use multiple remotes because that is moronic.
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post #17 of 17 Old 01-12-2013, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

vertical banding is common on Samsung TVs that have the S-PVA panel (which I believe yours does); however, on a good sample of your set it should not be noticeable with regular program material like movies and TV shows... please be aware an exchange may result in a set that is similar or even worse in terms of banding and other screen uniformity issues you might not even have right now

banding has nothing to do with edge-lit LED backlighting (it is rather a panel issue), but stuff like flashlighting and clouding is more common/severe on such sets... one of the reasons I believe the EH series Samsung LEDs are better than the ES series


you can check what panel type you have by looking at the white sticker on the box with the barcode... near the barcode it should read version and then show four characters (two letters followed by two numbers)

Txxx means a Samsung S-PVA panel (examples: TS01 and TH02)

What is the alternative(s) to the S-PVA panel and what is the panel designator for that type and other types? What are the chances that the new screens that come out this year will not have these issues? When do the new models come out?

hp
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