Sony XBR-HX950 Owners' Thread (XBR-55HX9​50 and XBR-65HX95​0) - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by IMRIZZO View Post

The only reviews I give credit to are those done by Home Theater magazine and CNET they are usually the only true in-depth and complete reviews that are truly unbiased.

I find CNET bias towards Panasonic. I thought the write up on the VT50 was factually incorrect - - the 3D picture was horrific. Flat out unacceptable compared to LED/LCD.

If you have the VT50 and are happy - - than that's great. I'm not here to bash any set over the other - - a lot of this is personal preference and go see the TV's in person that your are considering before you purchase.

But I can say this - - as to Plasma technology - - consumers have voted - - and it's evident by Panasonic's pulling out of Plasma TV production. http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/sales-waning-panasonic-stop-making-lcd-tvs

Lastly - - all the professional calibrators in the world do not take the place of my viewing experience and preferences (as should yours)

I could care less how "accurate" a TV is - - I want the best picture possible and while that is subjective, to say the least, it is the primary buying factor for 99% of consumers.

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post #902 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 10:29 AM
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Anyone know the contrast ratio,refresh rate/hertz,Brightness nits and response time for the 65incher?
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post #903 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

* no burn-in
* no image retention

I have to disagree with this...I own the VT30 and after hearing from some VT50 owners it looks like it applies to the VT50 as well...image retention is definitely an issue on all Panasonic plasmas (probably all plasmas in general)...you must not watch a lot of programming with static logos (such as ESPN) or are very careful to not watch them for too long...I have a very faint ESPN logo retained on the bottom right of my VT30 (only noticable against an all white background)...I don't like having to baby my TV and have to worry about watching my favorite stations for too long...in that respect LCD is the clear winner...overall I do prefer plasma though but the very best full array local dimming sets such as the Elite and the HX950 are ones I am keeping my eye on
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post #904 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I have a VT50. I have:
* no flickering
* no fan noise
* no burn-in
* no image retention
I will tell you there is dithering (it's a plasma), but that it's not visible from any normal viewing location. I'd also add that there is obviously ABL limitation, which is very apparent on some TV commercials. It's pretty much never apparent on actual content, including outdoor sports, which look fantastic.
I'm not in any way suggesting the HX950 is a bad choice, but since I often watch my VT50 from a side couch and lose 0% of the contrast, I'm pretty glad I had a plasma to choose from. I also can't speak to what the absolute best price is on the 65" HX950, but I paid $2000 less for my 65" VT50 than what I see is the price for the 65" HX950. I figure that $2000 will pay for pretty much my entire next TV in 5 years (including some interest). If anyone objectively did a side-by-side comparison of properly setup TVs without any brand names or without knowing which set is which technology but knew what they cost, I'd be absolutely shocked if anybody picked the HX950 over the VT50. Of course, some folks are price indifferent or have a specific reason to prefer the LCD. And for them, I'm quite sure the Sony is a reasonable choice.
Enjoy your VT50 and the money you saved. Different people have different sensitivities and can notice different things. I must be extra sensitive to fan noises and similar sounds. When one of the traditional hard drives in my HTPC is spinning, I can hear it, and it is a slow green 5400rpm drive; therefore I setup Windows to spin them down after just 4 minutes of inactivity. The 60Hz buzz of the fluorescent light bulbs in the kitchen bugs me even when I'm in the living room. I think I'm extra sensitive to flicker, too. Even on my old XBR8, I could notice the flicker when playing BDs at 24p. The HX950 is a nice improvement over XBR8 in completely eliminating flicker to my eye, but the VT50 flicker drove me batty even when doing 4*24=96Hz for BD playback.
And if you use your TV with a HTPC like I do, you can't help but notice plasma dithering, ABL, and burn-in. Spend a little time on some websites, then move the window around, and you can still see a faint image of where the window was, etc.
The price premium of the 65" over the 55" is a little crazy. That's why I bought the 55" and sit a little closer.

Bazinga!

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post #905 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:08 PM
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What is the use of the full pixel setting, apart from showing the original size of the picture? Does it provide a better PQ than with the normal setting? I'm asking these questions because, as shown in my previous posts, the full pixel setting is giving me problems.

Edit: problem solved by changing cable box.
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post #906 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:13 PM
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"I find CNET bias towards Panasonic. I thought the write up on the VT50 was factually incorrect - - the 3D picture was horrific. Flat out unacceptable compared to LED/LCD."

You said the write up was factually incorrect but then you don't back it up with any examples. If I recall correctly cnet.com did state that 3D performance was a weak point of the VT50. Samsung's top Plasmas models on the other hand are very good with 3P performance so the VT50's sub par performance with 3D isn't because of the panel technology.

True enough, consumers have voted for LED panels but it's also true that most audiophiles and professional reviewers still favor Plasmas. Hence, you're going think other publications are bias in addition to cnet.com. And I don't know if Panasonic is no longer going to make Plasmas, it's been reported that they're going concentrate on outsourcing smaller LCD screens and the rest is babbling speculation. I do know this, Panasonic made a large investment in revamping their 2012 plasma line up. But it does make sense they'll eventually abandoned their plasmas in favor of OLED panels.

I must be one of the 1% who wants to watch a movie the way the director intended it to be seen.
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post #907 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike50 View Post


What is the use of the full pixel setting, apart from showing the original size of the picture? Does it provide a better PQ than with the normal setting? I'm asking these questions because, as shown in my previous posts, the full pixel setting is giving me problems.

Full pixel gives you 1:1 pixel mapping, you want this for a hd games console or blu ray player, normal uses overscan, probably better for cable sources ifyou are seeing artifacts at the edge of the Source caused by the broadcast.

Aaron
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post #908 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

I must be one of the 1% who wants to watch a movie the way the director intended it to be seen.

I often see this line of reasoning. I can agree on that with movies like 300, or O Brother Where Art Though for example. There is a special post production process added to the film to give it a certain look. But most of the time the director is not adding any of these effects. The image we see on the big screen is more a result of the limitations of the technology instead of any intentional effect the director is trying to convey. From what I've read, the new Hobbit movies by Peter Jackson will be filmed in such a way that it will add what many calla Soap Opera Effect. That doesn't mean other directors would not want that effect in their movie for artistic reasons. It probably just means they don't have the budget to do it. So in many cases, what you see with some of these motion enhancements are what the director would like for you to see but can't because of lack of funding.
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post #909 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:31 PM
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I also want to see some black level measurements...what was mll on the HX929?
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post #910 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

"I find CNET bias towards Panasonic. I thought the write up on the VT50 was factually incorrect - - the 3D picture was horrific. Flat out unacceptable compared to LED/LCD."
You said the write up was factually incorrect but then you don't back it up with any examples. If I recall correctly cnet.com did state that 3D performance was a weak point of the VT50. Samsung's top Plasmas models on the other hand are very good with 3P performance so the VT50 sub par performance with 3D isn't because of the panel technology.
True enough, consumers have voted for LED panels but it's also true that most audiophiles and professional reviewers still favor Plasmas. Hence, you're going think a lot of other publications are bias in addition to cnet.com. And I don't know if Panasonic is no longer going to make Plasmas, it's been reported that they're going concentrate on outsourcing smaller LCD screens and the rest is babbling speculation. I do know this, Panasonic made a large investment in revamping their 2012 plasma line up. But it does make sense they'll eventually abandoned their plasmas in favor of OLED panels.
I must be one of the 1% who wants to watch a movie the way the director intended it to be seen.

Back it Up - direct from CNET write up:

3D: Updated June 5, 2012: When I first tested the VT50's 3D picture quality I called out its mediocre showing in what I consider the most important performance characteristic for an active 3D TV: reduction of crosstalk. But after the review was published I was alerted by readers that changing the TV's 24p setting (under the Advanced Picture submenu) from the THX 3D Cinema default of 60Hz to 48Hz would help. I got the chance to test that change today and can confirm that, yes, it works, turning the VT50 into a very good 3D performer.

Sorry - for my eyes the 3D performance on the Panny VT50 is abysmal. "Very good 3D performer?" You've got to be kidding me. But again, it's in the eye of the beholder so the consumer/purchaser needs to compare and make the judgment for themselves.

Regarding that most audiophiles & professional reviewers still favor Plasmas - - that's their preference. But the public/consumer is going overwhelmingly with LED/LCD.

Personally - - I do not want a TV that has to be calibrated by a "professional." Isn't that what technology is for? To make it easier for the consumer to get great performance, great picture and at a great price?

I remember having a conversation with a high end Audio/Video store ("Listen Up") and asking the salesman the difference between a Sharp & Samsung TV carried at Best Buy or available through Amazon. He said they were junk compared to what they were selling. Ridiculous - - they have different model numbers for different stores like Costco or Best Buy - - but the guts are the same.

And lastly - - I could care less about watching a movie the way the director intended it to be seen. I'm more interested in having a picture that suits my taste. The movie will be judged on its own merits - as always.

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post #911 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mike50 View Post


What is the use of the full pixel setting, apart from showing the original size of the picture? Does it provide a better PQ than with the normal setting? I'm asking these questions because, as shown in my previous posts, the full pixel setting is giving me problems.

It's your source. Simply, don't use Full Pixel Mapping with that source. The white dashs along the top are from embedded data such as sub-titling and are not intended to be viewed.

If you have other sources that do not do this, them definitely use FPM so that you can view the entire image.
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post #912 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

I also want to see some black level measurements...what was mll on the HX929?

I believe it not measurable with local dimming active.
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post #913 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

I have to disagree with this...I own the VT30 and after hearing from some VT50 owners it looks like it applies to the VT50 as well...image retention is definitely an issue on all Panasonic plasmas (probably all plasmas in general)...you must not watch a lot of programming with static logos (such as ESPN) or are very careful to not watch them for too long...I have a very faint ESPN logo retained on the bottom right of my VT30 (only noticable against an all white background)...I don't like having to baby my TV and have to worry about watching my favorite stations for too long...in that respect LCD is the clear winner...overall I do prefer plasma though but the very best full array local dimming sets such as the Elite and the HX950 are ones I am keeping my eye on

5 years running on my Pioneer plasma and not a bit of IR and watch tons of sports on ESPN, black bar movies etc.with never babying or breaking the TV in. . Guess I just got lucky. smile.gif
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post #914 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

5 years running on my Pioneer plasma and not a bit of IR and watch tons of sports on ESPN, black bar movies etc.with never babying or breaking the TV in. . Guess I just got lucky. smile.gif

maybe another one of the Kuro's special sauce features that could not be duplicated by others?...long live the Kuro!
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post #915 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:34 PM
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So wait a minute, I FINALLY count the 128 zones on the 65", spending a good amount of time on it last night, and now NO ONE CARES?! You guys were snapping at the bit for the zone count, and now no one cares. Amazing.

Can anyone at least tell me how many zones the 60" and 70" Elite have when counted?!
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post #916 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jmjunker View Post

I believe it not measurable with local dimming active.

It is not. Depending on the image, one section of the screen could be pure black, and the other section blinding white! Now if you were to measure the halo against the white, you might not get a very good mll at all.

The good thing is that I tend to only see the halo against very white tiny objects.
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post #917 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:43 PM
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I believe it not measurable with local dimming active.

how did they measure it on the Elite then?
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post #918 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post

Back it Up - direct from CNET write up:
3D: Updated June 5, 2012: When I first tested the VT50's 3D picture quality I called out its mediocre showing in what I consider the most important performance characteristic for an active 3D TV: reduction of crosstalk. But after the review was published I was alerted by readers that changing the TV's 24p setting (under the Advanced Picture submenu) from the THX 3D Cinema default of 60Hz to 48Hz would help. I got the chance to test that change today and can confirm that, yes, it works, turning the VT50 into a very good 3D performer.
Sorry - for my eyes the 3D performance on the Panny VT50 is abysmal. "Very good 3D performer?" You've got to be kidding me. But again, it's in the eye of the beholder so the consumer/purchaser needs to compare and make the judgment for themselves.
Regarding that most audiophiles & professional reviewers still favor Plasmas - - that's their preference. But the public/consumer is going overwhelmingly with LED/LCD.
Personally - - I do not want a TV that has to be calibrated by a "professional." Isn't that what technology is for? To make it easier for the consumer to get great performance, great picture and at a great price?
I remember having a conversation with a high end Audio/Video store ("Listen Up") and asking the salesman the difference between a Sharp & Samsung TV carried at Best Buy or available through Amazon. He said they were junk compared to what they were selling. Ridiculous - - they have different model numbers for different stores like Costco or Best Buy - - but the guts are the same.
And lastly - - I could care less about watching a movie the way the director intended it to be seen. I'm more interested in having a picture that suits my taste. The movie will be judged on its own merits - as always.

Sorry, I didn't catch the part that was "factually" incorrect about the cnet review or any update to it.

The point about audiophiles and professional reviewers with their preferences is it's based upon having much more knowledge about televisions than the typical consumer.

ALL TVs need to calibrated to get optimum performance but some TVs have picture modes that are very good out of the box. It would be exceedingly expensive to do it at the factory not to mention the TV wouldn't exactly be new as they would need to be broken in before calibration. Not a need for most TV viewers but I doubt they wouldn't be happier if it was calibrated, just not worth the trouble for most.

My local Best Buy didn't have any Panasonic plasmas higher than the ST50 or any of the top Samsung plasma models. But they did have some of the higher end LED models from Samsung. Costco just had a couple of the higher end Samsung LED models. Amazon has pretty much all the top models from all the major manufacturers. But yes, most TVs at a retail store are mostly lower end models including Sony. I know what you mean about the model numbers, I guess it's so they can claim to have the cheapest price for this model.

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post #919 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:54 PM
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Thanks Flavius, but I was aware of the pixel count it was the same as the 65" 929. But I was courteously awaiting for someone without an agenda to post it.
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post #920 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Sorry, I didn't catch the part that was "factually" incorrect about the cnet review or any update to it.
The point about audiophiles and professional reviewers with their preferences is it's based upon having much more knowledge about televisions than the typical consumer.
ALL TVs need to calibrated to get optimum performance but some TVs have picture modes that are very good out of the box. It would be exceedingly expensive to do it at the factory not to mention the TV wouldn't exactly be new as they would need to be broken in before calibration. Not a need for most TV viewers but I doubt they wouldn't be happier if it was calibrated, just not worth the trouble for most.
My local Best Buy they didn't have any Panasonic plasmas higher than the ST50 or any of the top Samsung plasma models. But they did have some of the higher end LED models from Samsung. Costco just had a couple of the higher end Samsung LED models. Amazon has pretty much all the top models from all the major manufacturers. But yes, most TVs at a retail store are mostly lower end models including Sony. I know what you mean about the model numbers, I guess it's so they can claim to have the cheapest price for this model.

Thanks. Much appreciated. It's not that I'm against any particular TV set, technology or even high paid calibrators and experts. smile.gif

You're right about most consumers not knowing that much about TV technology. For those who do want to get the most out of their TV sets - - thank god there are forums like this one. I would have never known to reset my "Sammy" set after a firmware upgrade unless a forum member had suggested it. And - - it did the trick.

I would have loved to see the Sony set when I was buying but it wasn't available. I know it costs a lot more, but there are a lot of positive comments from buyers and in the end - - that's what counts. Does it work for you?

I just get peeved when I see a review, any review from a so called expert on any product and my experience is the total opposite. It's like a wine review where someone sings the praises about a particular vintage and you end up spending the money and it tastes like vinegar. That drives me crazy.

So I've learned to read as much as I can - - learn from others but always trust my instincts and viewing experiences when I buy anything. I know it's subjective. It's also like a movie that has been "panned" by the critics but you end up watching it and it's thoroughly entertaining. You never know unless you view it through your own eyes.

Best - Rico

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post #921 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 02:17 PM
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So wait a minute, I FINALLY count the 128 zones on the 65", spending a good amount of time on it last night, and now NO ONE CARES?! You guys were snapping at the bit for the zone count, and now no one cares. Amazing.
Can anyone at least tell me how many zones the 60" and 70" Elite have when counted?!

"Sharp hasn’t released and won’t confirm the number of dimming zones they’re using, but sources have told us it’s 240 zones in our 60-inch model and 336 zones in the 70-inch"

According to the article on this link:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sharp-elite-pro-60x5fd-3d-led-lcd-hdtv

I've also read somewhere else that it was over 200 for the 60 inch but I am unable to re-locate the article.

Also, thanks again for all of your experimenting. I think you converted a lot of people over from the Samsungs...

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post #922 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by IMRIZZO View Post

Thanks Flavius, but I was aware of the pixel count it was the same as the 65" 929. But I was courteously awaiting for someone without an agenda to post it.
This is a great set, is it not ?

Yes it is. But pixel count? You mean ZONE count?
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post #923 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 02:47 PM
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"Sharp hasn’t released and won’t confirm the number of dimming zones they’re using, but sources have told us it’s 240 zones in our 60-inch model and 336 zones in the 70-inch"
According to the article on this link:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/sharp-elite-pro-60x5fd-3d-led-lcd-hdtv
I've also read somewhere else that it was over 200 for the 60 inch but I am unable to re-locate the article.
Also, thanks again for all of your experimenting. I think you converted a lot of people over from the Samsungs...

Oh man, seriously? 128 zones vs over 300 zones? And I could have had the Elite for only $1K more from Cleveland Plasma. Hmmmphh.. Oh well I'd probably end up with one of the Elite defects like pulsing, or bad cyan, or weird lines through the set.

Next stop for me after this Sony is going to be a NEW TECHNOLOGY.... OLED, CrystalLED, maybe combined with 4K.
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post #924 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 02:47 PM
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According to this link the 70 inch elite has 299 zones...One thing is certain, if these numbers are correct, the 950 is pretty low in the zone department.

http://www.**************.com/archive/index.php/t-11306.html?s=da4a5902bc98c655a113eceb8395fd29

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post #925 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Oh man, seriously? 128 zones vs over 300 zones? And I could have had the Elite for only $1K more from Cleveland Plasma. Hmmmphh.. Oh well I'd probably end up with one of the Elite defects like pulsing, or bad cyan, or weird lines through the set.
Next stop for me after this Sony is going to be a NEW TECHNOLOGY.... OLED, CrystalLED, maybe combined with 4K.

It's appealing, but is Sharp going to be around to support it by fixing some of the lingering issues and providing replacment parts if needed?

More here

Consider the source, but a BB rep told me that the 70" was showing discontinued as of 9/30/12 in their system and they didn't have anything new in the pipeline. Maybe Spring will bring a better option.
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Sharp expects to lose about $1.2 billion in revenue during this current business year. It also needs to find ways to get about 200 billion yen this coming September to pay a maturing convertible bond, and a further 360 billion yen to refinance a short-term commercial paper.

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post #926 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 03:12 PM
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Yes it is. But pixel count? You mean ZONE count?

I stand corrected, sometimes my brain don't keep up with my fingers, sorry.

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post #927 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Oh man, seriously? 128 zones vs over 300 zones? And I could have had the Elite for only $1K more from Cleveland Plasma. Hmmmphh.. Oh well I'd probably end up with one of the Elite defects like pulsing, or bad cyan, or weird lines through the set.
Next stop for me after this Sony is going to be a NEW TECHNOLOGY.... OLED, CrystalLED, maybe combined with 4K.

OLED is delayed until later in '13. Only a few will ship this year. IMO the whole OLED thing is just hype. Could/probably will have some of the same issues that put plasma in a bad light, mainly IR. I will be getting the HX950 55" later this year but I was a little anxious to see the OLEDs in person before I bought.
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OLED is delayed until later in '13. Only a few will ship this year. IMO the whole OLED thing is just hype. Could/probably will have some of the same issues that put plasma in a bad light, mainly IR. I will be getting the HX950 55" later this year but I was a little anxious to see the OLEDs in person before I bought.

After this Sony, means at least 3 or 4 years from now when these techs have been reviewed, tested, refined, and cost reduced. biggrin.gif
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post #929 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 03:54 PM
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Yes it is. But pixel count? You mean ZONE count?
And if you don't come up with a 1920x1080 pixel count, I demand a recount! tongue.gif

But seriously, thanks for the info on the 65" zone count. I was expecting it to be a little bit more than the 55" zone count, but the exact zone count helps for comparisons to the HX929. So has anybody figured out what is different between the 950 and 929 other than the stand?

Bazinga!

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post #930 of 4592 Old 10-20-2012, 04:01 PM
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And if you don't come up with a 1920x1080 pixel count, I demand a recount! tongue.gif
But seriously, thanks for the info on the 65" zone count. I was expecting it to be a little bit more than the 55" zone count, but the exact zone count helps for comparisons to the HX929. So has anybody figured out what is different between the 950 and 929 other than the stand?

in addition 1920x1080 pixels multiply by 3 colors
when TV shows 127,127,127 or 255,255,255 count every color to make sure 1920x1080 Reds and 1920x1080 Greens and 1920x1080 Blues
Thanks god it isn't AMOLED to count Blues biggrin.gif
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