I don't understand this. PCMAG is claiming that the Panasonic ET5 (IPS pane TC-L42ET5) is terrible past 45° (???) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 10-14-2012, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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This is the first I've ever heard anyone say that about this IPS panel. Bad off angle viewing??? Anyone have any ideas?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407517,00.asp

One of the things that IPS is known for is the wide angle, and the Pana IPS's always seemed to do well there according to personal reviews AFAICT.

What's going on? Anyone else concur with this guy?

EDIT 16-Oct-12: I post later in this thread that I actually saw a Pana in a store and the reviewer was right. Even though an IPS panel, the angles are absolutely horrendous.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #2 of 26 Old 10-14-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

One of the things that IPS is known for is the wide angle, and the Pana IPS's always seemed to do well there according to personal reviews AFAICT.

Not comments on off-angle viewing, but for this particular series (ET5) Panasonic uses LG IPS panels.
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post #3 of 26 Old 10-14-2012, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by barber76 View Post

Not comments on off-angle viewing, but for this particular series (ET5) Panasonic uses LG IPS panels.

Ok, thanks for that. Interesting. But isn't that odd for an IPS to be *that* bad? And I've never seen anyone bash the ET5 for angles. Has anyone else? Or did I stumble upon a bad reviewer?

There are two things that concern me about this and other Pana IPS panels:
  1. The lack of conversation about it/them in avsforum
  2. This particular review

Otherwise, I was very interested in it and am now getting nervous.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #4 of 26 Old 10-14-2012, 06:26 PM
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I've spent good half-an-hour at Sears today, looking at 55ET5, Sony 55EX645 (or was it 640?) and Sharp 52LE640U side-by-side. Maybe it was poor settings on the Panny (I tried Vivid & Standard modes). Maybe I just don't understand what good picture is, and oversaturated ones look good to me. But Panasonic looked dull and washed-out comparing to Sony, and to a lesser extent to Sharp. Especially, on contrast scenes, blacks on Sony looked much blacker vs Panny.
And earlier I had similar impression watching ET5 next to some LG
It's a pity, because money-wise 55ET5 could be a great choice to me. Passive 3d, decent size, etc. Specs are fine. I just don't like what I see in store.
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post #5 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by barber76 View Post

I've spent good half-an-hour at Sears today, looking at 55ET5, Sony 55EX645 (or was it 640?) and Sharp 52LE640U side-by-side. Maybe it was poor settings on the Panny (I tried Vivid & Standard modes). Maybe I just don't understand what good picture is, and oversaturated ones look good to me. But Panasonic looked dull and washed-out comparing to Sony, and to a lesser extent to Sharp. Especially, on contrast scenes, blacks on Sony looked much blacker vs Panny.
And earlier I had similar impression watching ET5 next to some LG
It's a pity, because money-wise 55ET5 could be a great choice to me. Passive 3d, decent size, etc. Specs are fine. I just don't like what I see in store.

I have to say I spent a little bit of time wandering around the local greatunwashedtuberculosisvilleCostco, and the Pana they had there (IPS) had HORRIBLE side angle viewing in both color fade and *especially* luminescence at 45°. In fact, it was far worse than the bottom of the line Visio and LG's I saw!!!!! I checked it against my neighbor's old 42" Bravia LCD(fluorescent) and the Bravia was *great* with only slight color loss at 25° or so, and no luminescent issues at all until way down to something like 10°.

This makes no sense whatsoever from what I've read. Especially since LG is the IPS supplier for many of the Pana brands.

My confusion has deepened (and I'm off the deep end LOL) and have decided I absolutely hate everything I see. :-/ Back to square one. I'll likely stick with my 32" CRT Sanyo for another 10 years.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #6 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 12:33 PM
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I would take viewing any tv in store with a grain of salt. You just have no idea what's been done to the set to demo it or who has played with whatever controls are left enabled for the public. FWIW, I have a 2010 LG with and S-IPS panel and the colors are fantastic with excellent off-axis viewing. The pictures does wash out a bit at an extreme angle but it's at an angle that we would never be sitting at.
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post #7 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

This is the first I've ever heard anyone say that about this IPS panel. Bad off angle viewing??? Anyone have any ideas?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407517,00.asp
One of the things that IPS is known for is the wide angle, and the Pana IPS's always seemed to do well there according to personal reviews AFAICT.
What's going on? Anyone else concur with this guy?

"Performance
We test HDTVs with DisplayMate test patterns, a Konica-Minolta CS-200 ChromaMeter, and Spectracal's CalMAN software. After setting the color temperature to Warm and performing a basic brightness and contrast calibration, the L42ET5 reached a peak brightness of 292.50 cd/m2 and a peak black level of 0.03 cd/m2, for an effective contrast ratio of 9,750:1."

Yeah right, an IPS panel with a CR of nearly 10,000:1! eek.gif

A dynamic backlight feature must have been active during the black measurement. A native CR of 10,000:1 is (2012) Panasonic Plasma territory. Also, my Samsung S-PVA panel UN46EH6000 only does 2,700:1.
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post #8 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I would take viewing any tv in store with a grain of salt. You just have no idea what's been done to the set to demo it or who has played with whatever controls are left enabled for the public.

Oh I agree with the color and gamma settings, etc., but I don't agree with you regarding off axis viewing in stores. The nature of having the LCD elements orient in parallel to the screen is not something that can be mucked with in settings. In that case specifically, I'll trust what I see in stores *way* over what any reviewer or customer has to say.

Quote:
FWIW, I have a 2010 LG with and S-IPS panel and the colors are fantastic with excellent off-axis viewing. The pictures does wash out a bit at an extreme angle but it's at an angle that we would never be sitting at.
Thanks for that info. To be clear, my test was important: I was looking precisely at the angles that might happen if the side couch were filled with people. It was unacceptable.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #9 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

"Performance
We test HDTVs with DisplayMate test patterns, a Konica-Minolta CS-200 ChromaMeter, and Spectracal's CalMAN software. After setting the color temperature to Warm and performing a basic brightness and contrast calibration, the L42ET5 reached a peak brightness of 292.50 cd/m2 and a peak black level of 0.03 cd/m2, for an effective contrast ratio of 9,750:1."
Yeah right, an IPS panel with a CR of nearly 10,000:1! eek.gif
A dynamic backlight feature must have been active during the black measurement. A native CR of 10,000:1 is (2012) Panasonic Plasma territory. Also, my Samsung S-PVA panel UN46EH6000 only does 2,700:1.

I have read so many caveats regarding contrast ratio that I honestly don't know WHAT to believe.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #10 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barber76 View Post

I've spent good half-an-hour at Sears today, looking at 55ET5, Sony 55EX645 (or was it 640?) and Sharp 52LE640U side-by-side. Maybe it was poor settings on the Panny (I tried Vivid & Standard modes). Maybe I just don't understand what good picture is, and oversaturated ones look good to me. But Panasonic looked dull and washed-out comparing to Sony, and to a lesser extent to Sharp. Especially, on contrast scenes, blacks on Sony looked much blacker vs Panny.
And earlier I had similar impression watching ET5 next to some LG
It's a pity, because money-wise 55ET5 could be a great choice to me. Passive 3d, decent size, etc. Specs are fine. I just don't like what I see in store.

Sony uses S-PVA panels, which are way better for contrast ratio/blacks than IPS panels of any kind. IPS panels have wide H viewing angles but poor V viewing angles (at least 2011-2012 models do). They can have solid color, but this year's Panasonic LED-LCDs don't and if one is to believe the general consensus of reviewers, these sets are a huge disappointment. LG's 2012 models might be better, but still not up to par with earlier models.
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post #11 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I have read so many caveats regarding contrast ratio that I honestly don't know WHAT to believe.

If I were you, I'd compare the sets you are considering in-store after taking the sets out of store mode and buy from a local retailer that has a solid return policy that's at least 30 days. You may have to use the set in your own home for a couple of weeks before you can honestly know whether it's right for you or not. Reviews and forums will only get you so far and sometimes many reviews are misleading or questionable and can lead to more confusion instead of helping. Just be aware of panel lotteries if the sets you looking at participate in the panel lottery.
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post #12 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I would take viewing any tv in store with a grain of salt. You just have no idea what's been done to the set to demo it or who has played with whatever controls are left enabled for the public. FWIW, I have a 2010 LG with and S-IPS panel and the colors are fantastic with excellent off-axis viewing. The pictures does wash out a bit at an extreme angle but it's at an angle that we would never be sitting at.

I don't think the current IPS panel Panasonics or LGs are nearly that good and even my 2011 S-IPS LK450 has poor vertical viewing angles, something you have stated your does not have. So, your set might be a lot better than current IPS panel LGs/Panasonics. Something to keep in mind.
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post #13 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Oh I agree with the color and gamma settings, etc., but I don't agree with you regarding off axis viewing in stores. The nature of having the LCD elements orient in parallel to the screen is not something that can be mucked with in settings. In that case specifically, I'll trust what I see in stores *way* over what any reviewer or customer has to say.
Thanks for that info. To be clear, my test was important: I was looking precisely at the angles that might happen if the side couch were filled with people. It was unacceptable.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was speaking more to pq than off-axis viewing. Yes, you can certainly determine off-axis viewing even with not-so-good pq. And yes, professional reviewers are definitely a place to start but nothing compares to actual viewing of the tv for certain requirements in person.
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post #14 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don't the current IPS panel Panasonics or LGs are nearly that good and even my 2011 S-IPS LK450 has poor vertical viewing angles, something you have stated your does not have. So, your set might be a lot better than current IPS panel LGs/Panasonics. Something to keep in mind.

I just wanted to make the point that not all S-IPS panels are bad. There are some who bought 2011 LGs and have been very happy with S-IPS panel performance and "look". But yes, you are correct in that the quality of S-IPS panels seems to have dropped somewhat since 2010 so that it is no longer a given that an S-IPS panel with have great color characteristics (even if the blacks aren't what we'd like) and off-axis viewing.
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post #15 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I have read so many caveats regarding contrast ratio that I honestly don't know WHAT to believe.

Yeah, I've read that contrast ratios can be very misleading to the point of almost being meaningless because of the non-standardized way that they can be determined.
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post #16 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was speaking more to pq than off-axis viewing. Yes, you can certainly determine off-axis viewing even with not-so-good pq. And yes, professional reviewers are definitely a place to start but nothing compares to actual viewing of the tv for certain requirements in person.

Yeah. I'm just alarmed that the propagandized information, the reviews, and the real thing are so images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYJ8tlN-8lvYSmHVOLqAHS3MRyHoiIH57nlTb5PfMrUnpU5vmzVery Freaking Far Off ®.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #17 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 02:46 PM
 
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Welcome to the world of uncertainties. tongue.gif

Stated specifics regarding picture quality, viewing angles, contrast ratio, etc are far from being cast in stone with many TV brands. One reason you can not even believe reviews, stated performance by the herds of TV gurus, and even current owners is many TV brands change or use different LCD panels during a model year. So no matter what anyone tells you or you read in a review from review websites and magazines, the TV you see and buy in a store may have different picture characteristics some of which may be detrimental. In other words. . . Your Mileage May Vary.

So you can possibly get some general impressions form websites, gurus, and even some AVS owner/members of a particular TV, but you need to see a TV in a store display, get the remote and tone down the settings, and judge for yourself. Note: There are even those who will tell you checking a TV out in a store is next to worthless. Believe your eyes in the store, get the TV home and road test it with proper Media Assisted Settings using a Calibration disc like AVS HD709 (Free here on AVS), and see how it performs. Always buy a new TV, not open box, and make sure the retailer has a good return policy.

My educated experience and 2 cents. smile.gif
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post #18 of 26 Old 10-16-2012, 04:13 PM
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Seeing a TV in store is worth it (assuming the panel version/type on display is the same as on the one you actually get AND you can adjust the picture settings out of the dynamic/vivid mode) and evaluating the TV at home is by far the best option. Everything else may or may not help, as others have mentioned and I myself have found out personally when shopping for my Samsung LED-LCD. Buying a TV is simply not that easy nowadays, especially if you are picky and want the maximum return from your investment. Reviews (official or not) and forum advice can be both helpful and counterproductive at the same time since one source may say one thing and another may say the very opposite. In the end, you have to decide which TV is best for you and any advice you get must be taken with a grain of salt for various reasons, including but not limited to panel version/type, firmware, and build date.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I have read so many caveats regarding contrast ratio that I honestly don't know WHAT to believe.

Yes, contrast ratio numbers are no more reliable than they were a few years back when the claimed numbers were getting so high it was insane. Too many variables and the many review websites and gurus did not help.

There seems to be a never ending glut of redundant statements made regarding what has already been stated regarding your frustrations. Others also have experienced the erroneous claims, "facts", and opinions of some individuals and reviewers, and TV makers themselves using ever changing hardware, firmware and other aspects don't help the case.

Here's just a basic primer of what TV buyers must face these days:

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/gallery/things_to_know_when_shopping_for_a_tv/
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-17-2012, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by barber76 View Post

I've spent good half-an-hour at Sears today, looking at 55ET5, Sony 55EX645 (or was it 640?) and Sharp 52LE640U side-by-side. Maybe it was poor settings on the Panny (I tried Vivid & Standard modes). Maybe I just don't understand what good picture is, and oversaturated ones look good to me. But Panasonic looked dull and washed-out comparing to Sony, and to a lesser extent to Sharp. Especially, on contrast scenes, blacks on Sony looked much blacker vs Panny.
And earlier I had similar impression watching ET5 next to some LG
It's a pity, because money-wise 55ET5 could be a great choice to me. Passive 3d, decent size, etc. Specs are fine. I just don't like what I see in store.

I've had the 55ET5 for 2 weeks now and this is my exact same observation. My old Sony KDL-52Z5100 looks so much better to my eye. I have tried to adjust every setting and even used the Disney WOW and could never get a picture I like. I've made up my mind to return the ET5. It's too bad cause the price was right, but if I have to look at an inadequate picture, then it's not worth it. I'm going to give the ST50 plasma a try and if that doesn't work out, I'm going back to Sony.
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post #21 of 26 Old 10-17-2012, 01:23 PM
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I have the ET5-55 and think the picture looks great and off angle looks good to me. Though I have had issues with this tv. My first one had a strange dark blob looking thing on the bottom left that made whites look kind of purple. Returned that and the second one was great until I noticed a dead pixel in the middle of the screen. I exchanged that and now my third one will be coming in tomorrow. If this one isn't good then I think I will go with the GT50-60 plasma.
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post #22 of 26 Old 10-17-2012, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vrsixer View Post

I've had the 55ET5 for 2 weeks now and this is my exact same observation. My old Sony KDL-52Z5100 looks so much better to my eye. I have tried to adjust every setting and even used the Disney WOW and could never get a picture I like. I've made up my mind to return the ET5. It's too bad cause the price was right, but if I have to look at an inadequate picture, then it's not worth it. I'm going to give the ST50 plasma a try and if that doesn't work out, I'm going back to Sony.

Goes without saying that OLED and Sony's Crystal LED can't lower in price soon enough.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #23 of 26 Old 10-17-2012, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrsixer View Post

I've had the 55ET5 for 2 weeks now and this is my exact same observation. My old Sony KDL-52Z5100 looks so much better to my eye. I have tried to adjust every setting and even used the Disney WOW and could never get a picture I like. I've made up my mind to return the ET5. It's too bad cause the price was right, but if I have to look at an inadequate picture, then it's not worth it. I'm going to give the ST50 plasma a try and if that doesn't work out, I'm going back to Sony.

if the weak blacks/contrast ratio of the ET5 bothered you, the ST50 should really impress you (it has the best blacks/contrast ratio of any flat-panel in that price range and obviously no viewing angle issues being a plasma)
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post #24 of 26 Old 10-18-2012, 04:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by scupking View Post

I have the ET5-55 and think the picture looks great and off angle looks good to me. Though I have had issues with this tv. My first one had a strange dark blob looking thing on the bottom left that made whites look kind of purple. Returned that and the second one was great until I noticed a dead pixel in the middle of the screen. I exchanged that and now my third one will be coming in tomorrow. If this one isn't good then I think I will go with the GT50-60 plasma.


Each TV tech seems to have it's issues. Including plasma. Speaking of "blobs", for instance, there were owners of some Panasonic plasma TVs that had "blobby" uniformity issues if you read some earlier thread posts for those TVs. An LCD TV with an S-PVA panel offers best black levels and also , depending on brand, good off angle viewing.

That said, the ET55 is a pricey set to not expect better performance.
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post #25 of 26 Old 10-18-2012, 06:46 AM
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I was on the lcd vs plasma post and got an infraction for stating that TV reviewer's are paid to say what they say.
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post #26 of 26 Old 10-18-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I was on the lcd vs plasma post and got an infraction for stating that TV reviewer's are paid to say what they say.

That aside, and to be clear, whether or not you were correct that's not the position I'm taking with this at all. I'm dismayed at it, but I can't quite raise that to accusation level yet.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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