What does the CMR number on Samsung TVs mean? And how to find out real panel refresh rate? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 40 Old 10-31-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Do you know exactly how the LED Motion Plus feature works on sets like the Samsung UNxxEH6000/6030/6050/6070? I read the FAQ section of your website and was wondering where the Samsung EH 6 series stands in terms of it's LED Motion Plus feature.
Not yet. I plan to purchase an inexpensive 1000fps camera, such as the Casio EX-FC200S which supports a 480fps and 1000fps mode for only $400. It is very low resolution at 480fps at 240x160, but this is high resolution enough to discern a scan pattern (many scanning backlights in displays are only a few rows of LED's).

On that camera, at 480fps, I'll be able to capture 8 frames for a single 1/60sec frame, allowing me to determine individual scanning backlight illumination sequences. The 1000fps mode is only partial frame (approx 240x64), but if held vertically (portrait) to capture top edge to bottom edge of screen, I should get millisecond-accurate images of a scanning backlight.

By the end of the year, I hope to have a few YouTube's of scanning backlights in operation.

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www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #32 of 40 Old 11-01-2012, 04:09 AM
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but you mean Samsung would resort to some sort of techno double talk?
They probably need more that just the "LED TV" scam to sell TV's. rolleyes.gif

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post #33 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 02:49 AM
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Hi,
This thread seems very interesting tome as i have had major issues with blurring while gaming with the newer 3dtv's, had around 15 3dtv's in the last 3 years wink.gif

On my 120hz pj as soon as my framerate drops below 120fps i start to see the ghosting/blur/trailing, at a solid 120fps from my pc it looks very clear, panning shots have the same amount of detail as still shots.
I've only been on the 120hz bandwagon for a month so i'm finding the info behind ghosting ect very interesting.

.
I can see that some people in here are very clued up and have some very very good info, i'd be greatfull if abit could be shared with me and let me know if what's quoted sounds like the truth as there are dark forces at work?
Thankyou.
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Hi,

I've been bugged out for awhile with pixel response times, but i found that was'nt what was bugging me a few weeks ago but i just had an idea then, seems my idea was sort of corect in why there is so much blur/ghosting on 60hz/60fps content with 3dtv's.

Tome a es8000 has loads of blur/ghosting/trialing at 60hz in 2d and so does a dt50, both sets sort there lifes out when interpolation is active but this adds too much inpt lag to games.

It would seem that panel refresh rates over 60hz have issues playing back 60fps content or any content that does'nt use frame interpolation to make the source the same framerate/hz as the panel.

So the higher the panels refresh rate the higher blurring/ghosting/trialing will be if frame interpolation is'nt active.

This is why i have had so many issues lately, i could'nt believe a es8000 and dt50 looked so bad in 2d with massive amounts of blur/ghosting/trailing, and as i did'nt know what was happening i blamed it on Pixel response times.


Anyway, hope you have a good read as it does explain the reasons why games are looking worse and worse with more blur than ever.


Imagine a 60hz/60fps on a 1000hz panel, that leaves 940 frames blank, this creates massive amounts of blur/ghosting/trailing, obviously the 1000hz is fake, it may only have a 200hz panel ect but either way 60hz does'nt fit into 100/200hz ect without frame interpolation.

Looks like what would be best is a 60hz passive 3dtv panel for 2d/3d gaming or a true 120hz projector or monitor ?

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post #34 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 08:54 AM
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Imagine a 60hz/60fps on a 1000hz panel, that leaves 940 frames duplicated, this creates massive amounts of blur/ghosting/trailing, obviously the 1000hz is fake, it may only have a 200hz panel ect but either way 60hz does'nt fit into 100/200hz ect without frame interpolation.
Fixed it for you. You said motion interpolation would be turned off.

Black frames do not create blurring. If it did, then CRT would be a blurry soup.

For benchmarking motion blur, try a Blu-Ray motion resolution test pattern, or try computer software (PixPerAn motion test program), with the scanning backlight turned on and off ("Impulse" mode is a good setting for the Sony, but it flickers too much for many people), and there's less motion blur with the scanning backlight turned on. Sadly, it's not a big reduction on many current HDTV's. Also see Science & References. It's the sample-and-hold effect that leads to motion blur.

Less than half of scanning backlights have more than 50% motion blur reduction, so you have to use a motion test pattern to really measure it, as subjective motion tests on many of them is hard. (It's not currently a "wow" effect of 90% motion blur elimination) But there is no scientific limitation on how much a scanning or strobed backlight can reduce motion blur -- except factors such as backlight diffusion, pixel persistence, etc. -- and those are scientifically solvable factors. (Backlight diffusion is not a factor for full panel strobe, but causes the disadvantage of flicker, which can then be solved again by PC-based 120Hz) (Pixel persistence is no longer a barrier to motion blur elimination in current 3D 120Hz panels that must clear the previous frame's persistence before the end of the refresh; it's now all in strobe timings; keep the panel dark when pixel persistence is occuring, and then do the strobe when the panel's finished refreshed. On some panels, more than 99% of pixel persistence is gone by the end of the same refresh). A strobe targetted at motion blur elimination, must occur only one per spatial display point per refresh, and as short as possible. Doesn't matter if it's entire panel or part of panel at a time, as long as one strobe per spatial display point per refresh. Pixel at a time, scanline at a time, segment at a time, or full panel. The biggest technological barrier today, the real biggie is the wattage needed for ultrashort strobes (150 watts per square foot, expensive amount of LED), which is why manufacturers have not done high-performance scanning backlights with 90%+ (or more) motion blur reduction. Due to the insane wattage needed for ultrashort strobes, it may cost $800 for a LCD gaming 24" monitor that has less motion blur than CRT, but it's scientifically possible. The first manufacturer to finally figure this out -- and sell at a sellable price -- gets a holy grail of a gaming LCD.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #35 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 11:15 AM
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Thanks Mark for your reply.

Do you think its the " duplicated " frames that i'm seeing as a double trailing image instead of a low pixel response time.
There's allways a second image following the first, some sets i've had have been very good and have had only a tiny distance between the 2 images, some sets though especially the high range ones have had the second image too far apart, looks awfull it does

Am i correct in saying that a 60hz panel with a 60fps source would have less blur than a 200hz panel running 60fps without interpolation on if the 2 panels was exactly the same apart from refresh rate?

That's how it looks to my eyes but i have no clue behind the tech that cuases the issue, so it's just what my eyes see and maybe notice wink.gif.


As interpolation sorts out the trailing image it means to me possibly that i may not be going back to a lcd 3dtv for gaming.

I could but then i'd have to buy the same 3dtv for a 3rd time which was a lg 47ld950 / 920.

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post #36 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 06:04 PM
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Aha, generic questions about double frame effect; which I'm very familiar with.
The answer to your question is different depending on whether the display is sample-and-hold (most LCD's) versus impulse-driven (CRT, and most plasma's).
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Thanks Mark for your reply.
Do you think its the " duplicated " frames that i'm seeing as a double trailing image instead of a low pixel response time.
Double trailing images is caused by the frame being repeated two times, which can occur with any of the following:

(1) (common...) Running at half the framerate (e.g. 30fps at 60Hz) on an impulse driven display (CRT, plasma, or scanning backlight) -- the most common cause.
(3) (common...) Running 60fps on certain scanning backlights that does two impulses per refresh (e.g. less aggressive scanning backlight modes that reduce flicker in exchange for less motion blur elimination)
(2) (rare............) Running 60fps on an LCD display that has a backlight flickering at 120Hz PWM dimming (pulse-width-modulation technique of dimming a backlight) -- normally this should be a higher frequency;
(4) (sometimes) Running 60fps on certain plasma displays that does two bona-fide impulses per refresh (e.g. clusters of plasma subfield refreshes tightly time-coupled with each other. Ideally, it should be all clustered into only one cluster of subfield refreshes with lots of black time in between refresh). Most modern plasmas either just spread the subfield refreshes throughout the entire refresh; while better plasmas try to cluster the subfield refreshes more tightly over a tinier time period (for better motion resolution).

This applies to other multiples, like a frame being repeated three timesOn an old Samsung 226BW with a CCFL backlight with a 180Hz PWM dimming, especially at half brightness setting, I can see triple trailing images at 60Hz refresh (The math is 180/60 = 3) This is seen in situations such as moving a smooth-fluidity gaming mouse on a black background, while tracking eyes on the fast moving mouse pointer.
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There's allways a second image following the first, some sets i've had have been very good and have had only a tiny distance between the 2 images, some sets though especially the high range ones have had the second image too far apart, looks awfull it does
For motion running at the same speed, this can be caused by impulses being further apart, versus closer together. Most commonly, frame repeats are spread evenly. For example, 30fps at 60Hz, the trailing image is 1/30th of a second behind. The double image is very far apart in this case.

In other cases, where the double image is close together, can be caused by:
(1) Certain plasma displays that tries to cluster subfield refreshes relatively close together, sometimes the clustering of subfield refreshes causes the brightness peaks two times very closely-spaced together. This essentially leads to what looks like a repeated frame that is extremely, extremely close together.
(2) Scanning backlights. It can also happen with scanning backlights that strobe a backlight segment two times in quick succession (But not quick enough to be undetectable).
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Am i correct in saying that a 60hz panel with a 60fps source would have less blur than a 200hz panel running 60fps without interpolation on if the 2 panels was exactly the same apart from refresh rate?
Only if it's an impulse driven display, and the impulse time is the same. CRT at 60fps@60Hz is smoother looking than 60fps@120Hz, for example (this is because 60fps@120Hz leads to a repeated frame; adding to the motion blur effect).

For LCD displays that have continuous backlights, and with motion interpolation disabled (and backlight is non-PWM, non-scanning), 60fps@60Hz looks the same as 60fps@120Hz. Because the display is continuously shining, there is no difference between a repeated frame or keeping displaying the same refresh. Assuming the response time is the same. There can be other effects, such as differences in pixel response speed (for 60Hz versus 120Hz) and differences in input lag, but if all other variables are the same, there's no difference.

For LCD displays that have non-continuous backlights and with motion interpolation disabled (PWM dimming, or scanning backlights), the answer gets more complex - if the PWM frequency stays the same (e.g. PWM stays at 240Hz, for example, even if 60Hz or 120Hz refresh), then there's no difference, either. For scanning backlights, it depends on how the scanning backlight operates (single strobe or multiple strobes per spatial display point per refresh). The sequential scanning backlights that emulate the CRT the most (one strobe per spatial display point per refresh) will behave the same as CRT -- 60fps@60Hz will look better than 60fps@120Hz(signal refresh, not backlight refresh or interpolated rate), for example, in terms of motion fluidity. In reality, scanning-backlight displays that are able to accept and display a 120Hz native input refresh (for 2D PC signal), are rare -- at the moment.
Quote:
As interpolation sorts out the trailing image it means to me possibly that i may not be going back to a lcd 3dtv for gaming.
I could but then i'd have to buy the same 3dtv for a 3rd time which was a lg 47ld950 / 920.
Interpolation will solve the trailing image problem by a large part, but at the cost of major input lag. This is okay if you're not an online gamer or competitive, but caveat emptor about the input lag if you use motion interpolation with computers and games -- many people find the latency annoying. However, it *does* make motion look much better in fluidity.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #37 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 06:54 PM
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Thanks for your time and words Mark.
I get the jist of it now.

My old 47ld950 must of had some good things at work for plain old 60hz, i see there are vairying factors, that tv had some of the good ones.


It's such a shame that these high spec tv's such as samsung lcd es8000 and panasonic dt50 lcd look brilliant in 2d or 3d with interoplation on but has massive trialing images at 60hz/60fps with gaming with no interpolation, i never use it for my games anyways but it shows how the image should really look and has looked on tv's i've had before.

I use a benq w710 3dvision pj after being bitten by these new tv's, 120hz with 120fps does look better than anything i've ever seen and drove me to look for questions, thanks again Mark for your good info.

We measured with our eyes the difference between the awsome lg 47ld950 and a lg lm760t.
For the lm760t to match the ld950 on a gaming panning shot at 60fps the lm760t needed interpolation on max to bring the after image down while the ld950 had very little ghosting without interpolation, the lm760t was classed as 800mhz and the ld950 200mhz.
The after image on the lm760t at 60hz with no interpolation was around 3x slower than the ld950.

Lol, i've had
Samsung 40c750 active
Lg 47ld950 passive ( best )
Lg 50" 3d plasma active
Lg 42 450u passive
Toshiba 42 and 47 passive
phillips 32pfl7606t passive
Lg 47ld920 passive ( best )
Lg 55lm760t passive
Samsung 46es8000 active
Samsung 55es8000 active
Panasonic 47dt50 active
Panasonic 47et5 passive
Cheap Benq w710st 120hz pj acive ( beats everything for zero to minimal ghosting ) Least input lag of them all.

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post #38 of 40 Old 11-02-2012, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Butmuncher View Post

samsung lcd es8000 and panasonic dt50 lcd look brilliant in 2d or 3d with interoplation on but has massive trialing images at 60hz/60fps with gaming with no interpolation, i never use it for my games anyways but it shows how the image should really look and has looked on tv's i've had before.
If you use some kind of scanning backlight, try its most flickery setting (e.g. "Impulse" setting on Sony XBR950 as an example). That setting usually has no double-image effect, from what I hear. Many people don't like the flicker, so they never use that setting. Lag is still bad, though.
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Cheap Benq w710st 120hz pj acive ( beats everything for zero to minimal ghosting ) Least input lag of them all.
DLP has no pixel-persistence-related ghosting trail effects; everything that blurs with DLP in video games (games that don't add GPU blur effects) is all virtually 100% eye-tracking-based motion blur. I usually use the term "ghosting" to define after-effects such as phosphor decay (CRT) or pixel persistence (LCD) -- DLP has no such attribute. Other artifacts you are probably familiar with are rainbow artifacts (if it's single chip) and DLP pixel noise (in muddy colors) -- that's the PWM modulation at the pixel level (plasmas have a roughly similar effect), which may show up as a slight muddy or noisy trail behind a moving object in certain cases, if you walk right up to the screen. It can be hard to see - it is much less so, on very good DLP chips.

Thanks,
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BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

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post #39 of 40 Old 11-03-2012, 12:11 PM
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Sadly there was no scanning backlight option on those tv's, just options for frame interpolation.

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post #40 of 40 Old 01-28-2014, 09:47 AM
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This thread should be a sticky! Excellent information.

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