Do any TVs these days allow for 1:1 pixel mapping in HDMI and PC-input? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 11-29-2012, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if any 1080 LCD TVs in the 37-40" range allow for 1:1 pixel mapping? This is especially important with PC-input modes.

Which ones allow for HDMI content to be viewed unscaled? So for example a could a 720P native Xbox 360 game be displayed at 1:1 with a border?

If some of TVs brands do which ones do, and which brands don't usually allow that?

I may be wrong but I heard Westinghouse TVs do allow for 1:1 but I can't verify.

Thanks
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post #2 of 14 Old 12-02-2012, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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No one? Nothing?

Does this mean there is no such thing or that no one wants to answer?
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post #3 of 14 Old 12-02-2012, 12:53 PM
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Sharps have a 'Dot for Dot' setting.
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post #4 of 14 Old 12-02-2012, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Sharps have a 'Dot for Dot' setting.

Ok thanks. Do all Sharps in the 40" range have this mode? And to confirm, if I display a 720P image on a Sharp 1080P TV with "dot for dot" mode they won't be scaled at all but will just have a black border, right?
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post #5 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 01:25 AM
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Depending on what comes out of the source -- set your DVD/BluRay/Cable/Satellite/etc to display natively rather than stretch or fill.
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post #6 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 01:40 AM
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I have two LGs that can do it as well in hdmi. Use "just scan" for 1:1 pixel mapping.
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post #7 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Depending on what comes out of the source -- set your DVD/BluRay/Cable/Satellite/etc to display natively rather than stretch or fill.

The thing is not every source lets you do that. The Xbox 360 for example does not. It just allows 720P which is native and 1080 which is scaled since no 360 games run at 1080P. I need a TV that will just display the image without raping it with all kinds of scalers and filters. If it depends on the source then the TV doesn't really allow 1:1 for everything (obviously anything at native res or less would be possible).

I know it may seem weird but when I sit close while gaming stretched to fit images look AWFUL in games. It gives a smeary, ringy, fuzzy, pixellated look to edges that I hate. My current old 720P 32" set looks amazing when using my 360 through the VGA cable at 1:1, while the PS3 looks terrible through HDMI on the same set. The reason is that the TV (Sony Bravia) insists on scaling the HDMI image and doesn't allow 1:1 while PC-input does. The TV uses a weird 768P panel instead of true 720P so all HDMI 720P images get scaled.

Now I want a 40" TV that does 1080P for movies and future games that use 1080P resolutions. Since the TV is bigger if I do 1:1 with 720P content the size will be about the same as my old set even with the border.

Do any Sony 40" LCDs allow 1:1 for VGA and/or HDMI modes? I am looking for the best PQ I can get in this size TV that has VGA input (rules out all Sammy sets as the got cheap with their inputs) . Cost is not a big issue for a set this small.
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post #8 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4221 View Post

I have two LGs that can do it as well in hdmi. Use "just scan" for 1:1 pixel mapping.

Which ones? How about this one: LG 42LM6200 42-Inch?
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post #9 of 14 Old 12-03-2012, 11:38 PM
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I had assumed they pretty much all did for at least a couple years now, but im no expert.
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post #10 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 01:49 AM
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Sharp has 'Dot for Dot' rendition capability.
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post #11 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

I had assumed they pretty much all did for at least a couple years now, but im no expert.

+1

it's usually a function named differently from brands like...'just scan' or 'full pixel'
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post #12 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you recommend any good quality Sharp sets at 40" that have this dod for dot plus VGA input? I would like 120 Hz or better, plus good blacks and relatively low input lag for games. 3D would be a plus.
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post #13 of 14 Old 12-04-2012, 09:52 PM
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I think there a few things that need clearing up here:

1 There are indeed native 1080p 360 games, this list is pretty old so there are probably more now: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241

2 Your current issue isn't a problem with need for pixel mapping but rather the scaling to a significantly different resolution and the fact that the 360 actually supports 1366x768 over vga while the PS3 does not. This does not mean it's pixel mapped (so far as I know pixel mapping is relegated to the dgiital world and VGA is analog) just that the 360 is not relying on the crappy TV scaler to convert a very awkward resolution change.

Basically the hideous conversion you see giong from your PS3 on your current display is not likely to occur on either console on a 1080p set even without worrying about pixel mapping largely because the scaling is going t oe done o nthe source (which is usually going to do a much better job than the display scaler) and 720p is actually goes into 1080p 1.5x which is a reasonable thing to scale vs trying to scale 1366 to 1280 which doesn't have a very clean divoisor.

This is all not even accounting for the fact that many games don't run natively at either 720p or 1080p on either console (often they run at weird resolutions to meet framerate goals or memory limits).

Basically wha tI am saying is don't worry:

Both consoles will look very good over HDMI regardless on a 1080p set in the vast majority of situations.

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post #14 of 14 Old 12-05-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devedander View Post

I think there a few things that need clearing up here:
1 There are indeed native 1080p 360 games, this list is pretty old so there are probably more now: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241
2 Your current issue isn't a problem with need for pixel mapping but rather the scaling to a significantly different resolution and the fact that the 360 actually supports 1366x768 over vga while the PS3 does not. This does not mean it's pixel mapped (so far as I know pixel mapping is relegated to the dgiital world and VGA is analog) just that the 360 is not relying on the crappy TV scaler to convert a very awkward resolution change.
Basically the hideous conversion you see giong from your PS3 on your current display is not likely to occur on either console on a 1080p set even without worrying about pixel mapping largely because the scaling is going t oe done o nthe source (which is usually going to do a much better job than the display scaler) and 720p is actually goes into 1080p 1.5x which is a reasonable thing to scale vs trying to scale 1366 to 1280 which doesn't have a very clean divoisor.
This is all not even accounting for the fact that many games don't run natively at either 720p or 1080p on either console (often they run at weird resolutions to meet framerate goals or memory limits).
Basically wha tI am saying is don't worry:
Both consoles will look very good over HDMI regardless on a 1080p set in the vast majority of situations.

I briefly looked through that list and only picked out a couple of 1080 games. I suppose there technically are a few, the amount is very negligable.

The 360 is set to 1280 x 720 (720P) and when viewed in PC mode at 1:1 on the TV there is a small border for those extra pixels of the 1366 x 768 difference. I have tried to use other modes that fill the screen but that slight difference of 720P vs 768P immediatly makes the image look fuzzy. So it stays on 1:1 pixel mapping at 720 and looks best. Yes many 360/PS3 games "cheat" by lowering the resolution, and i can spot those in seconds. I don't even need to look them up I can pick out the true 720 games vs the ones that aren't. The ones that aren't 720P look "soft".

As far as 1:1 pixel mapping only for digital that is false. "1:1 pixel mapping" just means for every 1 pixel output it is mapped to 1 display pixel. 1280 x 720 pixels output maps to 1280 x 720 displayed, no fractions. Take any computer that uses VGA output and set the graphics card to output to something smaller than the LCD computer monitor's native res. You will see it immediately get blurry. It only looks sharp when the resolutions match. If you use any paint program and place a pixel or one pixel width line on the screen you can see it right away. It has been that way since fixed pixel displays have been connected to computers.

I do worry because consoles do look fuzzy and pixellated at non native resolutions, I have seen it. 1.5x scaling is no more reasonable than 1.25x, 1.125x etc as it is all fractional scaling and you have only whole pixels, there are no 1/2 pixels. To do this it has to do the one pixel correctly then blend/average the next ones next to it to APPROXIMATE the .5 pixel. This blending/filtering gives edges a blurred out fuzzy effect. The only thing that is an even divisor is if you do an even 2:1, 3:1 etc. People get used to that and don't care which is fine, but I notice it and I don't like the scaling and the artifacts from it in games. Video and movies don't look as bad from scaled up images for some reason though.
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