Don't all LED's TV's have IPS Panels??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 12-13-2012, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Wondering which of the latest gen LED tv's feature IPS panels?
I know I saw Panasonic touting IPS panels..

Do the Samsung ES series LED's feature IPS panels?
Was going with Samsung ES 6500 55", however, I remember when buying my computer monitor last year, what a BIG deal, as far as picture quality and viewing angles, having IPS panel tech was...
If, in fact these Samsungs ES's are using 'inferior' cheap ass non IPS panels, how come the general consensus seems to be that they are the best for the price point?


Which are the best of the bunch? [Looking for 55" UNDER $1500 -AMAZON deal prices, NOT Best Buy Prices!!!]
A) With or without IPS panels-

B) With IPS Panels (please comment on why or why not IPS is a make or break)

Thanks....
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post #2 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 07:50 AM
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There are more panel types than just IPS and TN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD
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post #3 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 08:07 AM
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Interesting read -- any idea if Sharp is using more than one type these days -- presumably the MVA?...
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post #4 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

There are more panel types than just IPS and TN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

Informative article, thanks for posting it Luke M.
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post #5 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

There are more panel types than just IPS and TN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

yes, I'm aware of different panel types (interesting link nonetheless, I don't know all that)

what i'm asking is what panel types are in the samsung led's and other top led's???/
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post #6 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 10:08 PM
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No, many LCD LED-lit sets (or CCFL-lit sets) don't use IPS. Most use some sort of SVPA or MVA.

IPS does have much better viewing angles but they also have noticeably worse black levels and lower contrast ratios so they make not look as good for movie room/dark room type viewing and dark scenes look kinda washed out. I prefer SPVA/MVA type screens for an HDTV myself.

Samsung doesn't use IPS at all nor Sony nor Sharp. LG seems to use a lot of IPS though. Not sure about Panasonic, if they are bragging about it, then maybe they do. I'm not convinced IPS is something to brag about for an HDTV though where deep blacks and high-contrast are often a foremost consideration. Unless you like to view your TV from odd angles all the time or watch with big crowds of friends sitting all spread across in one row with some out on the edges.
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post #7 of 15 Old 12-15-2012, 11:08 PM
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IPS panels may be good for monitor use, photo editing, etc. but I find they make some of the worst panel types for LCD TVs. Poor contrast and poor black level performance being the main culprits -- traits that don't lend themselves well to lots of mixed-contrast movies and TV shows. Look at a reputable review site like Cnet, and you'll see that the worst-reviewed large LCD TVs this year are from Panasonic and LG -- the two manufacturers that use IPS panels.
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post #8 of 15 Old 12-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

No, many LCD LED-lit sets (or CCFL-lit sets) don't use IPS. Most use some sort of SVPA or MVA.
IPS does have much better viewing angles but they also have noticeably worse black levels and lower contrast ratios so they make not look as good for movie room/dark room type viewing and dark scenes look kinda washed out. I prefer SPVA/MVA type screens for an HDTV myself.
Samsung doesn't use IPS at all nor Sony nor Sharp. LG seems to use a lot of IPS though. Not sure about Panasonic, if they are bragging about it, then maybe they do. I'm not convinced IPS is something to brag about for an HDTV though where deep blacks and high-contrast are often a foremost consideration. Unless you like to view your TV from odd angles all the time or watch with big crowds of friends sitting all spread across in one row with some out on the edges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

IPS panels may be good for monitor use, photo editing, etc. but I find they make some of the worst panel types for LCD TVs. Poor contrast and poor black level performance being the main culprits -- traits that don't lend themselves well to lots of mixed-contrast movies and TV shows. Look at a reputable review site like Cnet, and you'll see that the worst-reviewed large LCD TVs this year are from Panasonic and LG -- the two manufacturers that use IPS panels.

I agree completely with these two posts. Having switched from an LG 42LK450 CCFL-LCD with an LG S-IPS panel to a Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD with a Samsung S-PVA panel, I honestly say the difference in black levels/contrast ratios/vertical viewing angles is remarkable (the LG has a post-cal native CR of just under 1,000:1 (950:1 or so) and the Samsung is just over 3,000:1 (3,100:1 or so).
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post #9 of 15 Old 12-16-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I agree completely with these two posts. Having switched from an LG 42LK450 CCFL-LCD with an LG S-IPS panel to a Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD with a Samsung S-PVA panel, I honestly say the difference in black levels/contrast ratios/vertical viewing angles is remarkable (the LG has a post-cal native CR of just under 1,000:1 (950:1 or so) and the Samsung is just over 3,000:1 (3,100:1 or so).

Yeah, these days the best of the best of the best contrast ratio for IPS is probably around 1200:1 and many are 800:1 while a run of the mill SPVA/MVA is 1800:1 and the best are a nearing 3000:1 or so.
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post #10 of 15 Old 12-18-2012, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Good stuff!
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post #11 of 15 Old 12-19-2012, 03:06 PM
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Good Stuff? I disagree - for some (better) IPS panels at least.

Vertical viewing angles are not usually near as important as -horizontal- ones (which IPS panels usually excel at - the LG 55LM7600 my Son in Law has tested *very well* on that - in person and reviews (far better than many other LCD panels) - check out the comments on HV angle for even top of the line Samsung ES models).

Also about the comment on IPS panels not having over 1K:1 contrast - true in the past and some still dont but the LG LM7600 tested far better than 1K:1 (the LM6700 was appx 1K IIRC) - in fact televisioninfo.com's test of the 7600 showed over 3500:1 contrast ratio and better than their comparison tests w/Samsung ES7100 - with darker black to boot. (Some reviews of LG 7600 have been bad (esp on uniformity/flashlighting) and some were with much earlier firmware. Some early reviews would make me avoid even considering it - but then my SIL also tried 3 'top rated' (by Cnet, others) TVs and returned all for problems (PQ/banding/buzzing/defective panels, bad pixels, dithering, etc) - no TV is perfect but edge lits I think are even more of a roll of the dice as far as screen uniformity and flashlighting - as you can clearly see from reading the threads here.) I hope you read more than this thread before making any decision.

About (LG 7600 IPS panel) Viewing angle and Contrast
http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/LG-47LM7600-Cinema-3D-Smart-LED-LCD-HDTV/Screen-Performance.htm

"The LM7600 tested with a rather wide angle of viewing. For LCD TVs, we consider a total angle over 45° to be very good, and the LM7600’s total viewing angle of 113° is an outstanding result. In short, this means ample contrast performance, off-center, for a healthily-sized group of people."

Check out the (H) viewing angle of the samsung ES7100 - ( 21 Degrees per their review of it )
http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/Samsung-UN46ES7100-3D-LED-HDTV-Review/Screen-Performance.htm


[Like most reviews I've seen they did not test vertical viewing angle - although with the 55LM7600 I've seen (TV on stand with it centered at appx eye level when seated) - standing up made no difference in color/contrast, etc when watching that I recall.]

Contrast tests:
http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/LG-47LM7600-Cinema-3D-Smart-LED-LCD-HDTV/Picture-Quality.htm

LG 47LM7600 - 3525:1 (0.05 - 176.27)
Samsung 46ES7100 - 2860:1 (0.10 - 286.02)

"The LG 47LM7600 tested with an excellent contrast ratio of over 3500:1. That’s roughly 3.5 times the “average” level, which promises ample dark-light differentiation for all kinds of contrast. Out of the three other LCDs we compared it to, the LM7600 scored with the largest maximum contrast ratio. It’s not super bright, but is plenty dark, and is still bright enough to compete with a well-lit room. This is a great result."


granted I'll never figure out why they show cal's at 100 backlight but to say no IPS panel has over 1K:1 contast is wrong. (and never have I ever seen anyone pick vertical viewing angle over horizonal - horizonal is by far the more important one in most users homes.)

Sure the LG has it's flaws (not the most accurate color esp. out of the box, motion rez worse than most unless Dejudder enabled (which can mean SOE), like most edge-lits can have bad flightlighting, etc - a crapshoot it seems) but then read some of the other brand LCD threads here (including some higher end/more expensive edge-lits)

After using WoW for settings, honestly for as low as $1100 for the 55in (Microcenter, Frys sales at times) I think you could do a lot worse. Tack sharp sample he has, better than avg IPS black levels (room has no lighting except for 13W F lamp as bias light behind TV - blacklight is set very low), viewing distance appx 7.5ft (not the '10-18ft' recc at LG site). Zero banding, no noticeable flashlighting or clouding (on that one, YMMV) and I'm still surprised at the black level (considering it's IPS). but I would not buy any TV (esp edge lit) except from a dealer with a good return policy...
(BTW - I saw a 60ES8000 samsung at a local dealer - it looked very good to my eyes, not quite as good a H Viewing angle as the LG7600, but good enough for me. Maybe it had a different mfr panel in that sample. I liked its active 3D... but SIL has kids so passive was better for them. But if I could afford it, I'd like to have that 60ES8000 they had on display)

I don't want to get into a back and forth post battle here and I'm sure you can find some reviews that trash the 7600 (not hard to find) but man some of the claims made are so far off base it's hard to tolerate without saying something. The Signal to Noise ratio here in general has really gone in the toilet...

To anyone reading this - make your own decision based on -your- own tests and preferences, not some forum post that many times is either no longer true or never was. (Or at least read as many -other- reviews as possible including owner comments in threads here and elsewhere - don't take all claims made here as gospel.)
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post #12 of 15 Old 12-19-2012, 08:29 PM
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Televisioninfo is an absolute joke. Please don't use them as a reputable source...their reviews are consistently contrary to just about every other major TV review site, and their methodology is puzzling and downright strange. Turning backlights all the way UP and turning local dimming off as policy mean that their results don't reflect real-world results.

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post #13 of 15 Old 12-19-2012, 09:17 PM
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I mentioned that (odd use of max BL cal) - but at least it's better than the zero proof/tests shown in previous comments here.
(just universal comments about low contrast of IPS, IPS no good for TVs, VERTICAL viewing angle, as if that was more important than horiz.)
I expected no less than dissing any review that didn't match the comments made. I wish cnet's reviews had 1/2 as much detail and data.

I guess their test data of the LG LM6700 (appx 1K contrast) is bogus too - as well as their plasma TV tests.
Their highest rated TVs are plasmas - Samsung E8000 rated a 10, 65VT50 a 9.6.
(Their highest rating given to an LED/LCD to date is an 8.4 - the LG 7600.)

At least their test method used was the same when comparing a "better contrast" samsung panel.
- and even Cnet (big plasma fans I'd say) doesn't seem to have posted Contrast results in their 7600 review that I can find.
(Personally, I never thought much of Cnet reviews of anything really, never have.)
I've seen a properly setup 7600, excellent. (maybe a better than avg sample, who knows. Clearly LG didn't cherry pick the one they sent Cnet lol.)

I'm would not be surprised if local dimming was off for pure contrast tests of the panel. Just as "dynamic contrast" should be off too imo. BTW - I didn't find where they said local dimming was off. (or if it was set to low/med/high.) Maybe I missed it but even did a search/find on the 'how we test' page http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/How-We-Test.htm
I did see the comments on max blacklight used for black levels, which again surprised me with a BL at 100/max.
(both that a 'calibrated' setting would be with BL at max and how that IPS panel rated that well for black w/BL at max)
The only mention I found of "local dimming" on the how we test page is bolded below.
Quote:
"Black Level
We measure the black level at several times during the testing of the display, then we report on any variance we see with these multiple measurements and we discuss any dynamic backlight or local dimming that the display uses that affect the black level. However, the main figure that we quote is for the black level at our calibrated settings, with the backlight on maximum for LCDs. Our score is based on how dark the black is: the lower the luminance, the higher the score."

Contrast Ratio
To calculate the contrast that the screen can achieve, we divide the peak white luminance by the deepest black luminance they can produce when showing normal video and not in a standby mode. So, if a display has a deepest black of 0.4 cd/m2, and a peak white of 400 cd/m2, the contrast ratio is 1000:1. Our score here is based on how high the ratio is; the higher the better. Note that our tests differ from the approach that manufacturers use to determine the contrast ratio; they test the peak white with the backlight on full, then the deepest black with it on the lowest attainable setting (often called a dynamic contrast ratio). Our test determines the true contrast ratio with the backlight on full during the test (often called the static full field contrast ratio).

For direct view LCD and Plasma displays the ANSI checkerboard contrast ratio is generally within a few percent of the full field contrast ratio above. Reviewers that find a significant discrepancy between the two are in instead measuring the veiling glare light contamination of their measuring instrument instead of the HDTV. See below. (Tunnel Contrast section)
Didn't see any notes on Local Dimming (off, low, med or high) on the calibration page of the review either. (tired so maybe I missed it in a comment on another page or intro) Maybe since a LD setting (low/med/high) wasn't mentioned, that means it was off. And ditto for any other dynamic settings/options which most pros turn off for cals IIRC.

And since you mentioned Cnet as a reputable review site and how LG LCDs got bad reviews with "Poor contrast and poor black level performance".
Well here's their LG LM7600 review (I won't repeat the entire review here - but at least will include a link and some clips)
For the 7600, I didn't see any comment about poor contrast and they had postive comments on its black levels
Quote:
Cnet Review of LG LM7600 (including some of the negatives)
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-47lm7600/4505-6482_7-35117974.html

"The LG LM7600 series has very good overall picture quality, with deep black levels for an LED TV."

- "Improved picture quality vaults the LM7600 into the small club of highly recommendable LED TVs this year."

"It's not every day that we encounter a television that has better picture quality than the more expensive version, but the LM7600 produced better image quality than the flagship LM9600 we reviewed earlier this year...."
(Never saw a 9600 (full array) but I think they may have had a suspect 9600 or just early firmware issues)

"This TV's relatively deep black levels are its main strength (twice as dark as the LM9600's). Its main weakness is imperfect screen uniformity, including some of the most noticeable hot spots I can remember seeing. I was also hampered by imperfect picture controls, so color accuracy suffered. Overall the LM7600 is not quite the match of the Vizio M550KD or especially the Sony HX850, but it keeps up with the Sharp LC-LE640U and outperforms most of the other LED TVs we've tested this year, earning 7 out of 10 in this category."

"The LG outperformed the black levels of the Samsung UNES8000 in most scenes (Tree of Life), but occasionally (the nebula at 21:04) the ES8000 looked a bit darker. "

And I would never choose a vizio over the 7600 LG.... no matter what they said. I'd take the es8000 though.
(clearly my SIL got a better one than they tested from the comments they made.)
from the comments on hot spots, etc I would have returned a set like that.

I still can't find Cnet's contrast ratio test results but maybe you can...
( didn't see it in the cal/settings page either but maybe I missed it somewhere)

Personally I find the TVinfo review far more detailed and complete than Cnet or any other I could find on this TV.
But as I said earlier, I don't agree on the cal at max backlight.

some other reviews of the 7600

Sound and Vision Mag (tests/cal page)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-lg-55lm7600-3d-lcd-hdtv?page=0,2
Quote:
With the backlight set at 100, maximum light output was an impressive 118.4 ftL. Black level at that setting was 0.029, for a contrast ratio of 4,083:1. With the backlight set at 0, the numbers were 5.483 ftL and 0.0012, for a contrast ratio of 4569:1. I found a backlight setting of 40-60 to be optimal for my darkened room testing. At a setting of 50, the LG produced 62.39 and 0.015 ftL for a contrast ratio of 4159:1. The LED Plus “local” dimming didn’t meaningfully change these numbers, and as it generally made the center of the image noticeably brighter than the edges, I left this feature off during the majority of my testing.

Here's an early review (April) of the LG 55in LM7600 / LM760T (euro) -
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1333359799
Contrast ratio listed as 1800:1 (default/oob) and 1413:1 (after cal)

The same site's Samsung E8000 Plasma tests had 1020:1 (oob) and 1680:1 (after cal)
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1342685085
(I know, low max brightness is a factor with that plasma, and why some LCDs get higher ratios,
including Samsung LCDs - they don't get as dark, but they get very bright which helps with the contrast ratio calc.)
many samsung LCDs can get much brighter than the LG 7600.

Another 55in LM7600 review
http://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lg-lcd-tv/lg-55lm7600.html
"Side Angle, Off center Viewing Quality is very good compared to previous models."
"Deep Black Bars top and bottom on 16:9 content"
"Black levels were good but not the best we have seen"
Picture Quality: 9/10
Overall Rating: 8.5/10
(Didn't see a contrast ratio test/result there)

Again as I mentioned, uniformity (and flashlighting) are the most frequent complaints - I wasn't totally one-sided like some here. what really is a joke is the kind of universal, general 'truths' spewed around here by so many that have never even tested the things they put down. (But I'm sure replies will be full of more "oh yes, I have tested that, saw it at so and so, tested dozens with calman, clearly it was inferior, "....)

Think what you want... I'm too tired to argue. Some IPS TVs have great PQ, decent black levels, and their wide viewing angle (horizonal) is a big plus with a family or if you often have friends over. I think for the money the LG 55LM7600 I've seen (one with good uniformity as I said earlier) was a good buy at a sale price ($1100 at couple times (frys, microcenter), MSRP is way out of line). With a good source (even OTA HDTV), the PQ was excellent on the one i've seen (many times, many hours watching and tweaking it at his house). And I saw the 3 previous TVs, (including some cnet rated very highly) before he took them back over dithering, buzzing, pixel/panel defects - bad luck I guess.

And read the _owner_ threads here on any TV - plasmas included - and you'll see there are clearly variations in everything. sometimes extreme. There's pros and cons for every type. If comments here in TV threads were all I used for buying decisions, I'd not buy anything (since many posts are on problems, complaints, defects, etc - those happy with theirs are less likely to post as often) I'd hate to recommend any TV to anyone else after what I've seen with the SIL trying 4 sets (2 plasmas, one high end sony and finally the LG. It has better than avg uniformity I think. 4th time the charm I guess.) As I said earlier, if I could afford it, I'd like that Sammy 60ES8000 at a local dealer (no banding, good PQ, nice 3D... and yes, I've seen the ES8000 thread here.)

To the OP - good luck with whatever you get. Now sorry (again) that I bothered to stir the pot on this but maybe something here was useful.
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post #14 of 15 Old 12-20-2012, 09:07 AM
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Interesting.

My year-old 65LW6500 has an IPS panel, and it does considerably better than 1000:1, or even 1200:1.

Out-of-the-box vs calibrated:

Black level 0.15 cd/m2 0.08 cd/m2
Brightness 242 cd/m2 120 cd/m2
Contrast ratio 1600:1 1500:1
Contrast ratio +/- 100

Not as good as the latest LGs, but acceptable to me. I would never say the blacks and contrast compare to my plasma, but they're okay. Depends on how much that matters to you, obviously. There are other advantages already mentioned, like horizontal viewing angle, especially for 3D.

The LM7600 looks to be quite good if the numbers are right.
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post #15 of 15 Old 12-21-2012, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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No bother at all! Honestly perfect. Could not have ever dug up so much insight on my own!!!
Just wish my room wasn't so bright, would go with plasma to avoid all these lcd/led issues!
But,again, sure they are not without concessions either; though likely fewer AND cheaper!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlr8yourMac View Post

I mentioned that (odd use of max BL cal) - but at least it's better than the zero proof/tests shown in previous comments here.
(just universal comments about low contrast of IPS, IPS no good for TVs, VERTICAL viewing angle, as if that was more important than horiz.)
I expected no less than dissing any review that didn't match the comments made. I wish cnet's reviews had 1/2 as much detail and data.
I guess their test data of the LG LM6700 (appx 1K contrast) is bogus too - as well as their plasma TV tests.
Their highest rated TVs are plasmas - Samsung E8000 rated a 10, 65VT50 a 9.6.
(Their highest rating given to an LED/LCD to date is an 8.4 - the LG 7600.)
At least their test method used was the same when comparing a "better contrast" samsung panel.
- and even Cnet (big plasma fans I'd say) doesn't seem to have posted Contrast results in their 7600 review that I can find.
(Personally, I never thought much of Cnet reviews of anything really, never have.)
I've seen a properly setup 7600, excellent. (maybe a better than avg sample, who knows. Clearly LG didn't cherry pick the one they sent Cnet lol.)

I'm would not be surprised if local dimming was off for pure contrast tests of the panel. Just as "dynamic contrast" should be off too imo. BTW - I didn't find where they said local dimming was off. (or if it was set to low/med/high.) Maybe I missed it but even did a search/find on the 'how we test' page http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/How-We-Test.htm
I did see the comments on max blacklight used for black levels, which again surprised me with a BL at 100/max.
(both that a 'calibrated' setting would be with BL at max and how that IPS panel rated that well for black w/BL at max)
The only mention I found of "local dimming" on the how we test page is bolded below.
Didn't see any notes on Local Dimming (off, low, med or high) on the calibration page of the review either. (tired so maybe I missed it in a comment on another page or intro) Maybe since a LD setting (low/med/high) wasn't mentioned, that means it was off. And ditto for any other dynamic settings/options which most pros turn off for cals IIRC.
And since you mentioned Cnet as a reputable review site and how LG LCDs got bad reviews with "Poor contrast and poor black level performance".
Well here's their LG LM7600 review (I won't repeat the entire review here - but at least will include a link and some clips)
For the 7600, I didn't see any comment about poor contrast and they had postive comments on its black levels

And I would never choose a vizio over the 7600 LG.... no matter what they said. I'd take the es8000 though.
(clearly my SIL got a better one than they tested from the comments they made.)
from the comments on hot spots, etc I would have returned a set like that.
I still can't find Cnet's contrast ratio test results but maybe you can...
( didn't see it in the cal/settings page either but maybe I missed it somewhere)
Personally I find the TVinfo review far more detailed and complete than Cnet or any other I could find on this TV.
But as I said earlier, I don't agree on the cal at max backlight.
some other reviews of the 7600
Sound and Vision Mag (tests/cal page)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-lg-55lm7600-3d-lcd-hdtv?page=0,2
Here's an early review (April) of the LG 55in LM7600 / LM760T (euro) -
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1333359799
Contrast ratio listed as 1800:1 (default/oob) and 1413:1 (after cal)
The same site's Samsung E8000 Plasma tests had 1020:1 (oob) and 1680:1 (after cal)
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1342685085
(I know, low max brightness is a factor with that plasma, and why some LCDs get higher ratios,
including Samsung LCDs - they don't get as dark, but they get very bright which helps with the contrast ratio calc.)
many samsung LCDs can get much brighter than the LG 7600.
Another 55in LM7600 review
http://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lg-lcd-tv/lg-55lm7600.html
"Side Angle, Off center Viewing Quality is very good compared to previous models."
"Deep Black Bars top and bottom on 16:9 content"
"Black levels were good but not the best we have seen"
Picture Quality: 9/10
Overall Rating: 8.5/10
(Didn't see a contrast ratio test/result there)
Again as I mentioned, uniformity (and flashlighting) are the most frequent complaints - I wasn't totally one-sided like some here. what really is a joke is the kind of universal, general 'truths' spewed around here by so many that have never even tested the things they put down. (But I'm sure replies will be full of more "oh yes, I have tested that, saw it at so and so, tested dozens with calman, clearly it was inferior, "....)
Think what you want... I'm too tired to argue. Some IPS TVs have great PQ, decent black levels, and their wide viewing angle (horizonal) is a big plus with a family or if you often have friends over. I think for the money the LG 55LM7600 I've seen (one with good uniformity as I said earlier) was a good buy at a sale price ($1100 at couple times (frys, microcenter), MSRP is way out of line). With a good source (even OTA HDTV), the PQ was excellent on the one i've seen (many times, many hours watching and tweaking it at his house). And I saw the 3 previous TVs, (including some cnet rated very highly) before he took them back over dithering, buzzing, pixel/panel defects - bad luck I guess.
And read the _owner_ threads here on any TV - plasmas included - and you'll see there are clearly variations in everything. sometimes extreme. There's pros and cons for every type. If comments here in TV threads were all I used for buying decisions, I'd not buy anything (since many posts are on problems, complaints, defects, etc - those happy with theirs are less likely to post as often) I'd hate to recommend any TV to anyone else after what I've seen with the SIL trying 4 sets (2 plasmas, one high end sony and finally the LG. It has better than avg uniformity I think. 4th time the charm I guess.) As I said earlier, if I could afford it, I'd like that Sammy 60ES8000 at a local dealer (no banding, good PQ, nice 3D... and yes, I've seen the ES8000 thread here.)
To the OP - good luck with whatever you get. Now sorry (again) that I bothered to stir the pot on this but maybe something here was useful.
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