Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models - Page 55 - AVS Forum
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post #1621 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post


There were plenty of complaints about this last year and the year before, but Samsung just keeps ignoring us all.

They appear to be selling plenty of sets, so they must be doing something right. wink.gif
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post #1622 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:25 PM
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Eagle, I thought that micro dimming was available in Movie mode this year?
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post #1623 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eagle, I thought that micro dimming was available in Movie mode this year?

It is. I also haven't noticed any unusual dimming in Standard mode. The only strange dimming I've seen so far was with Motion Lighting, which I quickly turned off.
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post #1624 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

It is. I also haven't noticed any unusual dimming in Standard mode. The only strange dimming I've seen so far was with Motion Lighting, which I quickly turned off.

That's what I thought. So what's the problem guys? confused.gif
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post #1625 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:32 PM
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If the EU version really doesn't have Precision Black how is that going to affect the picture i.e. what does Precision Black do?
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post #1626 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zAndy12 View Post

If the EU version really doesn't have Precision Black how is that going to affect the picture i.e. what does Precision Black do?

OK, what's precision black again? I don't see that in the English manual, so I assume it's called something else or the U.S. model doesn't have it either.
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post #1627 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:53 PM
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If the EU version really doesn't have Precision Black how is that going to affect the picture i.e. what does Precision Black do?

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OK, what's precision black again? I don't see that in the English manual, so I assume it's called something else or the U.S. model doesn't have it either.


According to Samsung:

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The company claims the microdimming system eliminates blooming effects and its Precision Black algorithm can control black levels in discrete zones without affecting light areas of the picture.


http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-un60f8000/4505-6482_7-35566921.html

So no Precision Black, but still, apparently, the best Samsung tv to date....... Strange......
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That's what I thought. So what's the problem guys?

Been thinking the same, since a few posts wink.gif..........
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post #1628 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

OK, what's precision black again? I don't see that in the English manual, so I assume it's called something else or the U.S. model doesn't have it either.

According to CNET, Precision Black is an "algorithm that can control black levels in discrete zones without affecting light areas of the picture". It sounds to me like it's Samsung's name for their edge-lit local dimming technology.
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post #1629 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Sure,

you bump the brightness setting up - for me, it was most effective at disabling the effects of auto-dimming when the brightness was set at 60. Then, go into your white blance - the one with 3 offsets (R,G,B) and 3 gains (R,G,B). Drop each of the three offesets (not the gains) down, each the same amount. That's it - this will counteract the effect of the brightness being dialed up so high. Voila, virtually no auto-dimming. The thing is though, how much to drop the offsets is a matter of trial and error. I had to drop them quite low - down to around 8 or 9 last year, versus the default setting of 25 for each one. I used the WOW and AVS discs to find exactly where to drop the offsets - I brought the brightness up first, then with the test patterns, instead of adjusting the brightness setting, I adjusted the offsets, since the key to disabling auto-dimming was leaving the brightness at 60 (give or take a few notches).

Simply adjusting the brightness up or down a little did not disable the auto-dimming last year. It was key to have the brightness at around 60, to raise the threshold enough that auto-dimming would never kick in.

There is only one way to set Brightness and that is with a pluge pattern. After turning off all the automatic stuff it is the first thing a calibrator adjusts. It sets Video Black to it's proper place. It is also one of the last things a calibrator checks to ensure that grayscale and color management system adjustments have not affected it.



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OK, I have to ask Buzz. Any reason you wouldn't use a good quality plasma for this? You seem to prefer plasma, so why go for the F8000?

Ken, I love plasma and own a PN51D8000 and a 65VT50. The problem, for what I am doing, is that ABL fights LUTs and consequently yields something less than accurate results. LUTs do in fact improve a plasma picture over internal calibration (which is also affected by ABL) but LCD is normally much more responsive and linear. I've done some inexpensive LCDs with truly nice results but on these you have to watch out for color in the backlight that cannot be disabled nor defeated by any kind of calibration including LUTs. That's why a grayscale pattern, especially in the dark end, can be green or red no matter what settings you have. Fortunately very few owners would pay more for a calibration than they paid for their TV. Calibration has a small audience.

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post #1630 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's what I thought. So what's the problem guys? confused.gif

Are we absolutely certain that it is functioning in movie mode this year, or is it guessing and speculation?

Last year there was much confusion over this. Everybody thought and assumed it was functioning in all modes, until somebody came on and stated that he believed it was not enabled for movie mode. Much confusion ensued. Several people called and emailed Samsung to confirm. They originally said it is functioning in movie mode. After users pressed the issue, and dug deeper into it, Samsung changed the story and said it was disabled in movie mode, in order to deliver a picture with as little image processing as possible. I saw an email myself that a user posted that they received from Samsung, confirming that it was not functioning in movie mode.

When I called them myself last year to ask about this, the first tech told me yes, it is available and functioning in movie mode. Then, when I pushed, they put me on hold, and another tech came on and said, no, it isn't available in movie mode.

So I think we really need to be absolutely positive that what is being said here about micro-dimming is true. Are people just assuming it is on in movie mode, or does somebody have a factual statement by a reviewer or Samsung confirming that it is indeed functioning in movie mode? I just don't want everybody getting comfortable thinking something that may not be confirmed or true.
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post #1631 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

There is only one way to set Brightness and that is with a pluge pattern. After turning off all the automatic stuff it is the first thing a calibrator adjusts. It sets Video Black to it's proper place. It is also one of the last things a calibrator checks to ensure that grayscale and color management system adjustments have not affected it.

I never claimed to be a professional calibrator. I'm just an owner. I mentioned several times that I use the WOW disc and AVS disc to tweak the set as close as I can get it to the test patterns. The WOW and AVS discs contain patterns for brightness and contrast settings. That's what I use.

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post #1632 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

According to CNET, Precision Black is an "algorithm that can control black levels in discrete zones without affecting light areas of the picture". It sounds to me like it's Samsung's name for their edge-lit local dimming technology.

So then that makes me ask, if it can do that, then why does it need to auto-dim the entire screen with CE-Dimming?
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post #1633 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I never claimed to be a professional calibrator. I'm just an owner. I mentioned several times that I use the WOW disc and AVS disc to tweak the set as close as I can get it to the test patterns. THE WOW and AVS discs contain patterns for brightness and contrast settings. That's what I use, since I"m not a professional.

Use the disc to set black, white, sharpness, color, and tint as described. To change Brightness to accommodate an auto function is just wrong. Turn all autos off, make the adjustments, and then maybe turn something back on to see what it does. If it has changed the black level you set it is no good when calibrating to a standard. If it looks better to you then have at it but the picture fidelity will be diminished.

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post #1634 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Umm... because of the price difference?

You mean the f8000 will be cheaper than f8500? I don't think so. Top of the line LEDs have never been cheaper than top of the line plasmas.
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post #1635 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I'm not convinced that Smart LED is micro-dimming. We had Smart LED last year too, and Samsung told me and others in the ES8000 thread that micro-dimming was not functional in movie mode. Yet we had Smart LED, so that must be different from micro-dimming.

I think I need to apologize since it seems i created this misconception. Since as Ken pointed out the Sony is a full array the smart LED is local dimming on the Sony and not what samsung calls microdimming.
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post #1636 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

According to CNET, Precision Black is an "algorithm that can control black levels in discrete zones without affecting light areas of the picture". It sounds to me like it's Samsung's name for their edge-lit local dimming technology.

I am trying to picture how edge lit local dimming works and I can't. Except for special cases when you can dim an entire horizontal band of pixels, like the black bars on wide scope movies.

Let's take the simple case where you want to black out 4:3 side bars. It's not like you can tell the light "go dark ~1/4 way across the screen then light up, then go dark again when you reach ~3/4 of the way.". That's voodoo physics. Unless you have top and bottom as well as side LEDs. But that's a lot of trouble to go through just to black out side bars. And it still does not help you If you want to display, say, a white circle in the center against black background.

So edgelit local dimming seems like an oxymoron to me. Now, what is micro dimming (or software dimming)? Is it doing some kind of blending between bright area and dark area?

PS: I just realize that CE dimming stands for contrast enhancement, right?
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post #1637 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

So then that makes me ask, if it can do that, then why does it need to auto-dim the entire screen with CE-Dimming?

I'm betting there are frames (like in space when most of the content is black) where the algorythym cries no joy and its only recourse is to 'preserve' its apparent contrast ratio it has to drop the backlight and unfortunately a lot of the bright parts and shadows suffer as a result. So put another way, I think micro-dimming is micro in its adjustment and can't account for large portions of the screen or at least large changes.
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post #1638 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

PS: I just realize that CE dimming stands for contrast enhancement, right?

I never realized that, but I'm betting you're right! I'm pretty sure it all boils back down to contrast ratio since the industry knows that's the largest ingredient to perceivable PQ. Maybe Buzzard can expound since he's not only an expert but somewhat of a pioneer in the calibration field.
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post #1639 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

I am trying to picture how edge lit local dimming works and I can't.

You can't picture it because it doesn't work even though Samsung often markets it like it does. (Note: It could absolutely work if there were LEDs around all 4 edges of the display. As far as I know, few (no?) current LCD TVs are made this way, instead they use LEDs along two edges.)

What Samsung can do is divide the screen into a series of horizontal rectangles (how many, I don't know) that are then dimmed individually. Now, keep in mind there are LEDs on each vertical edge of the TV, so light from the left edge is mostly asked only to get to the middle; same with light from the right edge. The light guides are designed in such a way that you don't see a seam in the middle, so there is some overlap, but it does let you double the number of zones.

The maximum possible number of zones is, therefore, (number of LEDs in each edge-lighting "bar" x 2). Practically, there are almost certainly fewer than that for a couple of reasons. (1) Rectangular zones of this type (half the width of the screen, horizontally) don't often align with content in a perfect manner. How many shots are there of an often coffin, for example? (2) You can't overly dim one zone next to another zone with any local dimming, but it'd be especially harsh with these very rectangular geometric zones.

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Except for special cases when you can dim an entire horizontal band of pixels, like the black bars on wide scope movies.
Correct.
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Let's take the simple case where you want to black out 4:3 side bars. It's not like you can tell the light "go dark ~1/4 way across the screen then light up, then go dark again when you reach ~3/4 of the way.". That's voodoo physics. Unless you have top and bottom as well as side LEDs. But that's a lot of trouble to go through just to black out side bars. And it still does not help you If you want to display, say, a white circle in the center against black background.
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So edgelit local dimming seems like an oxymoron to me.

More or less.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1640 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 05:46 PM
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i just received my f8000. the screw to remove for the wall mount use some funny head -- it's not an allen wrench, torx, etc. Should there be a driver head in with the accessories somewhere? Usually I don't get annoyed this early in the process.
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post #1641 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 05:48 PM
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Can you post a pic of it?
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post #1642 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You can't picture it because it doesn't work even though Samsung often markets it like it does.

I don't think that's a fair statement. It may not be as effective as full array local dimming, but edge lit local dimming is certainly better than no local dimming at all. Edge lit sets like the Sony HX850 have gotten great reviews, and everything we've seen so far about the F8000 indicates that it's quite impressive in this regard as well.
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post #1643 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post


Ken, I love plasma and own a PN51D8000 and a 65VT50. The problem, for what I am doing, is that ABL fights LUTs and consequently yields something less than accurate results. LUTs do in fact improve a plasma picture over internal calibration (which is also affected by ABL) but LCD is normally much more responsive and linear. I've done some inexpensive LCDs with truly nice results but on these you have to watch out for color in the backlight that cannot be disabled nor defeated by any kind of calibration including LUTs. That's why a grayscale pattern, especially in the dark end, can be green or red no matter what settings you have. Fortunately very few owners would pay more for a calibration than they paid for their TV. Calibration has a small audience.

Got it, thanks. I won't tell anyone over on the plasma side. wink.gif
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post #1644 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Are we absolutely certain that it is functioning in movie mode this year, or is it guessing and speculation?

Last year there was much confusion over this. Everybody thought and assumed it was functioning in all modes, until somebody came on and stated that he believed it was not enabled for movie mode. Much confusion ensued. Several people called and emailed Samsung to confirm. They originally said it is functioning in movie mode. After users pressed the issue, and dug deeper into it, Samsung changed the story and said it was disabled in movie mode, in order to deliver a picture with as little image processing as possible. I saw an email myself that a user posted that they received from Samsung, confirming that it was not functioning in movie mode.

When I called them myself last year to ask about this, the first tech told me yes, it is available and functioning in movie mode. Then, when I pushed, they put me on hold, and another tech came on and said, no, it isn't available in movie mode.

So I think we really need to be absolutely positive that what is being said here about micro-dimming is true. Are people just assuming it is on in movie mode, or does somebody have a factual statement by a reviewer or Samsung confirming that it is indeed functioning in movie mode? I just don't want everybody getting comfortable thinking something that may not be confirmed or true.

I would think eagle it's a dramatically easy thing to test. Once in Movie mode, engage Smart LED. According to AGuy, the setting is there in Movie mode to be enabled or disabled. Enabling it should have a very visible impact on the picture that would be hard to miss.
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post #1645 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

It may not be as effective as full array local dimming, but edge lit local dimming is certainly better than no local dimming at all. Edge lit sets like the Sony HX850 have gotten great reviews, and everything we've seen so far about the F8000 indicates that it's quite impressive in this regard as well.

Agreed. A number of reviews have said the 850's performance was actually quite close to a full array panel. Edge lit LD, done right, appears to be very effective. I have no idea what Samsung did this year and I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it's pretty apparent that whatever they did do is working quite nicely and has raised the bar on overall edge lit performance.

I'd love to see a full array panel like the Sony 950 next to the F8000 displaying some demanding material. I think that's an A/B that many would like to see. I suspect the differences may be smaller than some think.
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post #1646 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You can't picture it because it doesn't work even though Samsung often markets it like it does.

I don't think that's a fair statement. It may not be as effective as full array local dimming, but edge lit local dimming is certainly better than no local dimming at all. Edge lit sets like the Sony HX850 have gotten great reviews, and everything we've seen so far about the F8000 indicates that it's quite impressive in this regard as well.

I returned an HX850 mainly due to the brightness fluctuations caused solely by the local dimming. I'm currently using a 5 y/o CCFL set, which I prefer greatly for its superior uniformity, zero flashlighting, and constant backlight brightness. It has a worse absolute black level, but with most material, it looks just as good, and most importantly, rectangular portions of dark scenes aren't going up and down in brightness on a somewhat frequent basis, which I noticed more and more the longer I had the HX850. Unless reviewers test it with specific material known to be problematic, they probably won't notice it in the short time they spend testing a set. That's why I gave several examples with time positions in my earlier post. Measurement of black levels in static test patterns just doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story. I'd also say that edge-lit local dimming has different challenges than full-array. At least, the problem scenes noted in the CNET HX929 review weren't a problem for the HX850, and that's because the HX850 can't light up small areas and thus make a small part of a letterbox bar light up like the HX929 can. Instead, it'll make the whole half-screen width, 1/8 screen height strip brighter, which may or may not be a problem depending on what's above and below the strip.
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post #1647 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:38 PM
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While I'm waiting for the 75" F8000 to be released, I'm getting my home theater ready for it. To this end, I bought a new Denon 3313CI receiver today. Obviously, when I am watching content via the TV's built-in apps (i.e. Netflix, Hulu, etc.), there needs to be a way to get the audio from the TV to the receiver. Will I need to hook up a separate audio cable from the TV to the Denon, or will the HDMI cable provide sound via the audio return channel?
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post #1648 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 06:53 PM
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Initial thoughts:
The power cord is too short. The tv is sitting on a media center and the power cord comes out of the bottom right. It barely reaches the socket on the lower left of the tv back. I'm guessing it's 4'?

The wireless internet keeps dropping out during the initial software update. I'm using an Apple Airport Extreme. (It wouldn't connect at all to the 5gh network.) It went through.

I can't figure out how to add apps. Maybe I'm just an idiot. I guess you have to run the update to get to the apps?

But -- I've got the sound from my cable box going through a Home Theater System. I guess if I use a Smart TV App, I need to use the TV speakers, unless I take the audio out from the tv to the HTS? Of course, with the cable box, apple tv, and PS3 in the HTS, I think I'm out of inputs. There's no coax out on this tv, is there?

55" is very big for being 10-12' away.

Can I use one of these wall mounts? If not, I'm going to cry:



I'm going to play with the picture modes. Initially, it's quite good. But every now and then there is some juddering/jittering/blurring in the background.
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post #1649 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

I don't think that's a fair statement. It may not be as effective as full array local dimming, but edge lit local dimming is certainly better than no local dimming at all. Edge lit sets like the Sony HX850 have gotten great reviews, and everything we've seen so far about the F8000 indicates that it's quite impressive in this regard as well.

I never said it wasn't better that "no local dimming at all". But my statement is absolutely fair. It's not "local dimming" in any conventional sense. It's a bunch of rectangular zones. Period.

I'm not saying the results are unimpressive. I'm not saying the F8000 isn't excellent. I'm saying it can't do local dimming from the edges because it cannot. This isn't one of those opinion questions, it's a matter of fact. And I'm tired of debating facts.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1650 of 3705 Old 03-19-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dstone001 View Post

55" is very big for being 10-12' away.

No it's not.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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