Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Thank you for continuing to share your experience with your new set with us. I'm glad to hear you're a 3D fan because it's nice to hear some honest thoughts on the 3D performance of the set. Hollywood has had a rocky start to 3D, and much of it is their own fault. I've seen them drop the ball so many times already, and they could learn something about 3D from people like James Cameron, and also by looking at many of the 50's 3D films, which were often shot far better, and giving much better depth perception, than this new round of films we've been getting the last couple years. Hopefully tv's like these will help people see the benefits that 3D offers, when done well.

Be sure to keep us updated.

I've never actually seen any 3D content before this month, where I picked up the Sony and then replaced it with the F8000. Before, I had gone along with other non-believers and just bleated that it was clearly a gimmick. I love 3D now. There aren't a whole lot of movies that do it well, of course, but those that do are really engaging and fun. I really hope the technology and support will keep improving.

I went with the Sony HX850 because I wanted the best 2D performer in that price range while having the added bonus of Smart TV and 3D features. But the 3D on the my Sony was full of distracting crosstalk. I kept spotting it and calling it out, much to the annoyance of everyone else watching the movies with me. When I started to notice vertical banding in 2D content, well that was enough.

Now I have the F8000. Its 2D seems just as impressive - both are a huge improvement over the DLP television they replaced, which funnily enough is a Samsung - but it knocks the HX850 I had out of the park in terms of 3D performance. I believe I may have seen the dimming that people talk about during end credit sequences (non-scrolling), but it's been perfect with 99% of the other content I've watched.

I'm kind of at a loss when everyone is discussing zones, CE dimming, ABL, etc. All I know is that now I'm happy with my new TV, whereas I wasn't before.
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post #1802 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post



I'm kind of at a loss when everyone is discussing zones, CE dimming, ABL, etc. All I know is that now I'm happy with my new TV, whereas I wasn't before.

Thats the most important part, that you're happy with it. Sometimes more knowledge is less happiness. It can be frustrating to spend the time, effort and money that many of us do on this "hobby" and not get those moments where you just sit back and enjoy whats ON the tv as opposed to whats in the tv.
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post #1803 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I'd really like to know if the panels on these F8000 sets are indeed the same panels as last year, or if they are different. If they are just the same panels coming off the same assembly lines as last year, then I don't see how the F8000 could appear so much better with no clouding and flashlighting, unless it wasn't the panels themselves to blame as much as the build quality or assembly or design of the surrounding frame and internal components. Maybe the lack of clouding that we keep hearing about this year is due to better placement of internal components and better build quality as opposed to any difference in the actual panel itself?

If the F8000 is indeed free of the anomalies of past sets, I'd bet it has less to do with the panel itself, and more to do with how the edge lighting has been implemented.
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post #1804 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You might not buy it, but the reviews have been universally praising of the display. Almost all of said this was Samsung's best ever. \.

No credible review, in fact, has said anything has been done to improve the generally mediocre black levels. If something has, great. But I haven't read word one about it. And .014 black level on ANSI isn't it.

And since you can't fix contrast with higher whites (all displays in cinema mode have already been finding sufficient brightness and, no, this isn't an ABL issue), this will remain an issue. That's why I'm not "buying it" in the metaphorical sense.

In a bright room Samsungs were already great at contrast by 2011 by the way. Yes, great. Most of us do little viewing in a bright room and little critical viewing. That's really not the test we're trying to prove here. And, yes, to clarify: A Samsung LCD in a bright room > any plasma. It's contrastier (really, it is by effective measurements and probably metered ones too thanks to how much light the color filters and polarizers eat up) and brighter. If I was watching my TV mostly in the day, well, it's not close.

Oh and if it weren't Samsung's best ever... well, wow, that would be pretty sad.

Look, we are beating a dead horse on this image retention nonsense. Saying you see it at Magnolia -- where images might be on the display for 50, 60, 70% of the time for all we know -- proves even less than these buffoons at AVS who keep insisting that it's likely people will suffer from it. Is there some potential for an issue? Sure there is. Is there an overwhelming likelihood that a given owner will have no issue (i.e. no retention at all or sufficiently little that they basically don't see it)? Yes, that's definitely the case. And I can't be more certain in making that statement.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1805 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:26 PM
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I have been on this forum for quit a few years. Your statement pretty much sums it up as far as what is the best equipment out there I have gotten caught up in all the hype for years till it got to the point where i needed to buy something because a piece of equipment failed. Do your research, find something you like and enjoy it. Try not to let the negatives of the product limit your enjoyment of what you buy. No piece of equipment is perfect but there is some really good stuff out there. Don't worry be happy.

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post #1806 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by seansingh7326 View Post

hi i need some advise i have a es8000 and its giving me problems im going it exchange through samsung for a f8000 i was wondering if they would exchange it with a new one and not a refurbished one. if anybody here ever got an exchange done by samsung i would love to know what they give you . im hoping its a brand new tv like sealed up in the box.

They would be offering a new set, not a refurb. They offered me an F7500 for my ES8000, but I declined it and opted for a refund instead.
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post #1807 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:32 PM
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Hello everyone. love the discussions here. I am looking into getting the un60f8000 when it comes out. I am new to the whole led thing. I still own a Toshiba 56h80 rear projection from 2000. This will be a major upgrade for me. Does anyone know if i can use samsung's built in channel guide if my scientific atlanta cablebox is hooked to the f8000. I hate the software on the cablebox. Also, is it possible to eliminate the social networking page on the tv since I have no interest in using that feature?
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post #1808 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I'm seven movies and a video game into the F8000 so far, and it's still a better experience than on my HX850. I also received Life of Pi 3D today and explored a few scenes. Gorgeous 3D with no crosstalk that I could spot. I haven't had any experience with the ES series, which seems to be where a lot of the concerned people are coming from, but all I can add is that I'm much happier with this one than my Sony.

Whats the gaming like on this set? Its for my bedroom and the high input lag figures has put me off,how have you found yr gaming ?
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post #1809 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I've never actually seen any 3D content before this month, where I picked up the Sony and then replaced it with the F8000. Before, I had gone along with other non-believers and just bleated that it was clearly a gimmick. I love 3D now. There aren't a whole lot of movies that do it well, of course, but those that do are really engaging and fun. I really hope the technology and support will keep improving.

If you're a golfer just wait until you see the Masters in 3D - frickn' awesome.

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post #1810 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Theplaymaker77 View Post

Whats the gaming like on this set? Its for my bedroom and the high input lag figures has put me off,how have you found yr gaming ?

I haven't played anything like Call of Duty on it yet, but the role-playing games and single-player shooters felt fine, even with Autio Motion Plus enabled (I like interpolation in video games). And that was without enabling Game Mode or renaming the inputs.
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post #1811 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 04:05 PM
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Any Aussie gurus have an Australian release date? My local harvey Norman reckons the 75 won even be released in oz!
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post #1812 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 04:44 PM
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Here some pictures of my 55" F8000. Returned my 46" D8000 and got this.



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post #1813 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:01 PM
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I'm having a hard time understanding why people are mad about the .014 black level. Its been stated that the black level was measured without using any enhancements (such as micro dimming). Even the Sharp Elite and Sony HX950 (TVs with blacks better than most plasmas) have lighter black levels when their local dimming function is turned off.

Sense the F8000 is an edge lit LED it is unreasonable to expect it to compete with plasmas in terms of blacks. However, there is more to a TV than just black levels.

edit: Also I'm sure most of us will have the micro dimming turned on.
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post #1814 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are mad about the .014 black level. Its been stated that the black level was measured without using any enhancements (such as micro dimming). Even the Sharp Elite and Sony HX950 (TVs with blacks better than most plasmas) have lighter black levels when their local dimming function is turned off.

Sense the F8000 is an edge lit LED it is unreasonable to expect it to compete with plasmas in terms of blacks. However, there is more to a TV than just black levels.

^^^This.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #1815 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:24 PM
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Robert Zohn just posted a small bit of info regarding the F8500


Every year display technology leap frogs, this year Samsung's F8500 is like a bull frog on steroids! Great big technological jump forward.

Kevin Miller is calibrating our 51", 60" and 64" F8500 tomorrow. I'll send you some great calibration settings this weekend.

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post #1816 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are mad about the .014 black level. Its been stated that the black level was measured without using any enhancements (such as micro dimming). Even the Sharp Elite and Sony HX950 (TVs with blacks better than most plasmas) have lighter black levels when their local dimming function is turned off.

Sense the F8000 is an edge lit LED it is unreasonable to expect it to compete with plasmas in terms of blacks. However, there is more to a TV than just black levels.

edit: Also I'm sure most of us will have the micro dimming turned on.

Contrast, thus black level, is the single most import aspect of picture quality. The below measurements were from the black squares of an ANSI checkerboard pattern. I'll be taking the same readings Monday night on an F8000 if it arrives on time, with and without dynamic/auto processing capabilities. We'll see. Remember that video 16 is black. Enhancements probably can't make black "blacker". What they might do, though, is pull video 17+ down into black and you'll lose dark detail. Calibrators will turn such enhancements off.

Samsung UN60ES8000 0.016 FtL
Elite PRO-60X5FD 0.0055
Panasonic TC-P65VT50 0.002

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post #1817 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:53 PM
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Here some pictures of my 55" F8000. Returned my 46" D8000 and got this.




Have you tried the web browser? Do the web pages load fast and scroll fast? Thanks.
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post #1818 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 05:55 PM
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Anyone think Samsung should have use this software that comes on their new Home Sync box in their new 2013 lineup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMYgSzUj0fg
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post #1819 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 06:02 PM
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Have you tried the web browser? Do the web pages load fast and scroll fast? Thanks.

Not yet! I should say the smart hub loads faster though. I will try the web browser tonight.

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post #1820 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 06:04 PM
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Anyone know where can I buy longer power cable for the TV ?

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post #1821 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 06:54 PM
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Hi Ken. My F8000 is scheduled for delivery on Monday so you can bet I'll have a meter on it Monday night. It'll be interesting to see what I find out about the plethora of auto contrasty thingies. rolleyes.gif The answer for calibrators at least will be to find the deepest black that is not subject to auto adjustment. On your Elite the IVC is turned off for calibrating and back on afterwards - weird but it works and there is an outside chance that one of the Samsung settings should be treated similarly. We'll see.

Yes, I have been lucky regarding IR, also buzzing as I have none on either set. It looks like another panel lottery situation which should never happen, especially at these prices.

Buzz, I'd be interested in the ANSI native #s as well as the numbers with the dimming turned on (or whatever other dimming goodies enhance blacks without wrecking the picture!). smile.gif
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post #1822 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I'm seven movies and a video game into the F8000 so far, and it's still a better experience than on my HX850. I also received Life of Pi 3D today and explored a few scenes. Gorgeous 3D with no crosstalk that I could spot. I haven't had any experience with the ES series, which seems to be where a lot of the concerned people are coming from, but all I can add is that I'm much happier with this one than my Sony.

AGuy, just for clarification, what dimming controls do you have set to 'on' and are you seeing any ill-effects from them?
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post #1823 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are mad about the .014 black level. Its been stated that the black level was measured without using any enhancements (such as micro dimming). Even the Sharp Elite and Sony HX950 (TVs with blacks better than most plasmas) have lighter black levels when their local dimming function is turned off.

Sense the F8000 is an edge lit LED it is unreasonable to expect it to compete with plasmas in terms of blacks. However, there is more to a TV than just black levels.

edit: Also I'm sure most of us will have the micro dimming turned on.

This is what I've said time and time again, but I'm not getting through. Mark consistently mentions that ANSI # and I could care less about the native CR of the panel. Really, I could care less. Dimming techniques are used in LCD because they're needed. Why in God's name would someone buy an LED panel with dimming and not use it? You are absolutely correct, my Sharp Elite without dimming looks mediocre at best. With dimming it beats most plasmas and to the naked eye has blacks that I, personally, have not seen beat.

I'm really tired of going through this again and again and again.

Mark, as for burn-in, I'm sure some of the Magnolia sets were abused, but it wouldn't have happened with an LED regardless. The many many comments I've seen right here on AVS are not all from cranks, crackpots or people with an agenda. I believe many of them and they are not folks who have 'abused' their panels.

It's clear we're not going to convince the other of this, so let's leave it here.
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post #1824 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are mad about the .014 black level. Its been stated that the black level was measured without using any enhancements (such as micro dimming). Even the Sharp Elite and Sony HX950 (TVs with blacks better than most plasmas) have lighter black levels when their local dimming function is turned off.

Sense the F8000 is an edge lit LED it is unreasonable to expect it to compete with plasmas in terms of blacks. However, there is more to a TV than just black levels.

edit: Also I'm sure most of us will have the micro dimming turned on.

If the edge-lit F8000 does local dimming like the Sony HX850, the true black level, i.e. what it does in the absence of the dimming, is still very important. It will determine just how visible the inevitable blooming is, when there is an illuminated object on a dark background. On the HX850, the zone subject to blooming is a minimum of 1/8 the screen height and half the screen width, and in the six weeks I had the set, I found it could be quite regularly obnoxious. When the dimming was disabled, the brightness fluctuations went away, but the poor uniformity, flashlighting, and black level were totally unacceptable in such an expensive TV. So I don't really buy the argument that the local dimming makes it all good, because it requires one to accept the blooming as the trade-off. The .014 you're quoting sounds pretty good, but David McKenzie's review had it at .049, which is in the ballpark for the HX850, IIRC.
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post #1825 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Buzz, I'd be interested in the ANSI native #s as well as the numbers with the dimming turned on (or whatever other dimming goodies enhance blacks without wrecking the picture!). smile.gif

I have a Klein K10-A so nothing will be missed. wink.gif

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post #1826 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

This is what I've said time and time again, but I'm not getting through. Mark consistently mentions that ANSI # and I could care less about the native CR of the panel. Really, I could care less. Dimming techniques are used in LCD because they're needed. Why in God's name would someone buy an LED panel with dimming and not use it? You are absolutely correct, my Sharp Elite without dimming looks mediocre at best. With dimming it beats most plasmas and to the naked eye has blacks that I, personally, have not seen beat.

I'm really tired of going through this again and again and again.

I presume you'd use dimming. Period.
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Mark, as for burn-in, I'm sure some of the Magnolia sets were abused, but it wouldn't have happened with an LED regardless.

That argument is so facile, I'm not sure I can let it just go. It's essentially equivalent to saying, "red wine can stain your carpet in a way white wine can't, so you should really consider avoiding red wine." Never mind that most of us don't have carpet in the places where we drink wine.

I mean, seriously, the "this can't happen with an LCD so therefore we should damn the plasma where it's possible that maybe something could happen that maybe seems permanent to some tiny number of people who have to go looking for it on test patterns in most cases because even when they are certain they have this problem, they don't actually see it unless they run a test pattern" line of argument is not a real argument. It's just not.

The millions upon millions of Panasonic plasma owners who don't have any permanent panel damage are more than enough reason to presume that no special skill is required to achieve this result.

They "I play a lot of Xbox games with HUDs on them and I'm not going to want to ever worry about it" argument? That's an argument to avoid plasma. Why? Because it represents a scenario where one can reasonably expect to experience some amount of image retention (I'm certain most people would still experience none by the way; the NCAA Tournament score bars are failing to "retain" on my plasma...) -- and regularly, to boot.

This is essentially now a 15-year-old argument and the idea that this problem is serious is a lot like the idea people shouldn't drive cars because there are idiots out there who drive drunk and might hit you. I mean, yes, people drive drunk. And yes, there are some people who have some image retention. But if we acknowledge the problem exists (as rare as it may be), then we have to conclude that it's caused by some amount of bad luck or really stupid behavior... I'll just grant that bad luck is some version of "panel Lotto"... And if that's a reason to not buy plasmas well, my God, it's a reason to absolutely, positively never, ever, ever buy a Samsung LCD if ever there was one (unless of course somehow the 2013s are all perfect out of the box because they've stopped manufacturing them like 1980s American cars).

Oh, and by all means take the last word. I just wasn't really interested in letting it be one which relied on some argument that I found so facile because, well, there have been mostly a serious of intelligent, well-reasoned posts by you (and others, it should be noted).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1827 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:37 PM
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The .014 you're quoting sounds pretty good, but David McKenzie's review had it at .049, which is in the ballpark for the HX850, IIRC.

0.049 cd/m2 x 0.29 = 0.01421 Foot Lamberts and FtL is what we're talking here. smile.gif

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post #1828 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

AGuy, just for clarification, what dimming controls do you have set to 'on' and are you seeing any ill-effects from them?

I have Smart LED set to Standard, which was its default. I didn't experiment too much with other settings, though Low looks promising. I haven't noticed any ill effects. The only negative I have is that the television's viewing angles aren't the best.
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post #1829 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 08:07 PM
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If the edge-lit F8000 does local dimming like the Sony HX850, the true black level, i.e. what it does in the absence of the dimming, is still very important. It will determine just how visible the inevitable blooming is, when there is an illuminated object on a dark background. On the HX850, the zone subject to blooming is a minimum of 1/8 the screen height and half the screen width, and in the six weeks I had the set, I found it could be quite regularly obnoxious. When the dimming was disabled, the brightness fluctuations went away, but the poor uniformity, flashlighting, and black level were totally unacceptable in such an expensive TV. So I don't really buy the argument that the local dimming makes it all good, because it requires one to accept the blooming as the trade-off. The .014 you're quoting sounds pretty good, but David McKenzie's review had it at .049, which is in the ballpark for the HX850, IIRC.

Except a panel like the Elite has little to no blooming. A panel like the F8000 has also been reported in reviews to have little to no blooming.

We've moved past the HX850 and its performance does not necessarily predict future advancements in the technology.
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post #1830 of 3717 Old 03-22-2013, 08:08 PM
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I have a Klein K10-A so nothing will be missed. wink.gif

I'll be over on Monday. biggrin.gif
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