Samsung F8000 -- 2013 Flagship Models - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You didn't believe me? lololol

And about those Kuros....

D-Nice - "It varies based on generation, size and build date.

The 2nd generation ranged from 0.0025fL to 0.0004fL."

Any MLL below 0.001 was done via a proprietary method by D-Nice
and I think he was the only person able to get those quad zero numbers.
Possibly by adjusting the pots.
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post #1892 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Any MLL below 0.001 was done via a proprietary method by D-Nice
and I think he was the only person able to get those quad zero numbers.
Possibly by adjusting the pots.

Could be but if you do a little research I think you'll find that the lowest black levels produced on consumer displays are the Sharp ELite at.0004 and the newer model Kuros at.0005. It matters little as displays at those levels have not survived the marketplace. .001ish should do it.
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post #1893 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:10 PM
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Anyone F8000 owners going to do a video review of the 2013 Smart Hub software and web browser to see how fast the quad core processor is and post that on Youtube? Thanks.
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post #1894 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:27 PM
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Th price difference on the 75" is insane.. i wonder if they are quoting a higher figure to keep up the 75es8000 sales..
At that price I will have to either get the 65 or go with a Sharp.
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post #1895 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Th price difference on the 75" is insane.. i wonder if they are quoting a higher figure to keep up the 75es8000 sales..
At that price I will have to either get the 65 or go with a Sharp.

Pretty sure there is no 74ES8000...

ES9000?

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post #1896 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:38 PM
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Yes sorry -I meant the 9000.
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post #1897 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Yes sorry -I meant the 9000.


No problem

And I meant 75, not 74. biggrin.gif

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post #1898 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 07:37 PM
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Samsung has some of their new models up on their web site.

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/led-tv
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post #1899 of 3719 Old 03-24-2013, 07:39 PM
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Thanks for the opinions, I was asking because i currently have a full array tv although its vizio xvt3d554sv it seems to be a good set im not a pro either and not into the apps in all that either strictly pic quality no plasma and I have an itch for an upgrade. I'm assuming the samsung or the sony is an upgrade I just didn't want to go from full array to edge lit and be let down compared to the vizio, I want the best tv because it going to last me until the 4k oled sony and panasonic are making becoming affordable I plan on getting the 65 inch in either set so time will tell, I"ll look through these forums and hopefully come to a decision soon.

If you do happen to land on the F8000 I don't think you will be disappointed. It's amazing what they can do with edge-lighting now. I dare say its as good as full array. Maybe not quite up to sharp elite standards, but you will definitely notice a nice improvement over your Vizio. I had the un60es8000 for almost a month before I returned it. I really tried to love it. Even managed to put 100 hours on it in that time to see if the clouding and flash lighting would improve. At the end if the day I just couldn't take it. The funny thing is that the minute after opening it I updated the firmware and watched Prometheus. I didn't watch it in total darkness as it was a cloudy day with all the venetian blinds closed, but the blacks looked deep and all was good. I could see a little flash lighting, nothing too serious. I Thought I'd spend a little more time with it. Updated the firmware again and put some more hours in. I don't know if it was because it was the first time with it in the dark or the alleged fw that made the tv look worse but something was wrong. At this point it was unbearable. I've been waiting for the F8000 for months now as a replacement. From everything ken and others have reported i was very hopeful. So I spent about an hour in best buy with it tweaking every single setting. The tv blew me away. I literally could not find a thing wrong with it. The motion was the clearest I'd seen on an LCD. The input lag was negligible. Looking at the panny plasma beside it I expected to see a full second delay in the feed like usual, but no, i could have sworn cuts happened at almost the same time. Small delay, but not like the es7500 below it. And that was with game mode off. I then turned it to movie mode and defeated almost every software enhancement in the tv including smart led and dynamic contrast. Picture was still stunning. I then tried settings at medium and then high. With smartled cranked up it looked stunning. The hobbit preview looked gorgeous. The black bars melted into the frame. They were as black as black. I realize there is no comparison to a pitch black room under the best buy lights, but I got within inches of the set and could not even see a hint of flash lighting. I think the cinema black really did its job. I actually didn't notice any weirdness of 16:9 content with it on which I hope isn't a sign that it's flaws were hidden under the showroom lights. Anyways when the 60 is released in April I will definitely be picking one up. It was worth the 4 month wait for me over the es8000. Looking at some pics if the 55 in complete darkness I see no flash lighting and amazingly no haloing. I am fully confident that samsung can take all of the positives of the 55 and extend them 5 more inches diagonally. By April cnet and others will have an in depth review of the American version and I'm sure they and other owners (see owners thread) will unanimously agree about the f8000 learning from the mistakes of the past and giving you 90% the pq of a local dimmer at 60% of the cost!
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post #1900 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by gweempose View Post

Thanks for the link! It looks like the 75 incher isn't going to be available until May. Bummer. I was hoping it was going to be sooner than that. frown.gif


Pffff, in the Netherlands the 55inch starts by 2999,- EURO, thats about 3897,19 Dollar!!!!!
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post #1901 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 05:05 AM
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Also in Belgium price is so high...
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post #1902 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PiratesCove View Post

I had and miss my A850 mad.gif.

I was just as impressed with the F8000 as the A850 back in '09.

I still have my 52" A850 and it was having problems turning on but turns out it most likely was a capacitor problem and Samsung should be calling me in a day or so to schedule a free repair(lawsuit settlement). I plan on moving the 850 to a different room and possibly upgrade to the f8000 if its worthy.
I LOVE my a850 and love the PQ. Had one or two issues in beginning under warranty, kept it on the earlier recommended firmware and have enjoyed it ever since.

My plan is to try and get amazon to price match gray's appliances for their current sale price of $2329. If it fails to happen after a few attempts I will go into the local BBY and try there.
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I'd really like to know if the panels on these F8000 sets are indeed the same panels as last year, or if they are different. If they are just the same panels coming off the same assembly lines as last year...

+1 really would love to hear its a different panel that is helping it perform better as well before purchasing.
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post #1903 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by adgrimes View Post


My plan is to try and get amazon to price match gray's appliances for their current sale price of $2329. If it fails to happen after a few attempts I will go into the local BBY and try there.

Is it price for 55" F8000 ? Why not just buy from Gray's f you can buy it for $2329.

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post #1904 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:41 AM
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From http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs/1298677/samsung-f8000-smart-led-tv/4:

"Despite stretching across a 55in panel, the backlight was superbly uniform with no obvious signs of light bleed at the edges. Samsung's new Cinema Black mode even disables the upper and lower backlight segments when watching 2.35:1 Blu-rays, completely eliminating any light from the black bars that appear above and below the video. It's not automatic, so you'll have to disable it when returning to full-screen sources, but it does a fantastic job when watching dark Blu-ray movies."

They don't seem to mention anything negative about using Cinema Black, unlike another review (the one from hdtvtest), which stated that it had a dimming effect across the entire screen when activated.

From http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm:

"Given that adjusting this control requires a trip into the menu, which fills most of the screen, it can be difficult to appreciate the difference between the settings. Therefore, we set up a locked-off camera and shot some pictures of the letterbox areas on all four settings (Off, Low, Medium and High). In the scene we chose, Off and Low gave the same result, as did Medium and High. This did have the intended effect of dimming the letterbox bars, but during motion, it also caused the light output from the entire screen (not just the letterbox bars) to increase and decrease, occasionally “popping” after a scene change. We tested the feature with tests specifically designed to reveal such video processing, and found that the Medium and High settings have some dynamic gamma behavior included. In our view, that’s a more noticeable characteristic than the letterbox bars not appearing jet-black. As a result, we stayed with “Low”."


This is why I don't take too much stock in what I read from reviews. Many reviews gloss over or don't even mention issues that other reviews do mention. You would think that if expertreviews encountered the dimming effect from Cinema Black, they would have mentioned it in their review. Yet no mention of any negative effects from Cinema Black, even though hdtvtest took a full paragraph to address the issue.
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post #1905 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

From http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs/1298677/samsung-f8000-smart-led-tv/4:

"Despite stretching across a 55in panel, the backlight was superbly uniform with no obvious signs of light bleed at the edges. Samsung's new Cinema Black mode even disables the upper and lower backlight segments when watching 2.35:1 Blu-rays, completely eliminating any light from the black bars that appear above and below the video. It's not automatic, so you'll have to disable it when returning to full-screen sources, but it does a fantastic job when watching dark Blu-ray movies."

They don't seem to mention anything negative about using Cinema Black, unlike another review (the one from hdtvtest), which stated that it had a dimming effect across the entire screen when activated.

From http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm:

"Given that adjusting this control requires a trip into the menu, which fills most of the screen, it can be difficult to appreciate the difference between the settings. Therefore, we set up a locked-off camera and shot some pictures of the letterbox areas on all four settings (Off, Low, Medium and High). In the scene we chose, Off and Low gave the same result, as did Medium and High. This did have the intended effect of dimming the letterbox bars, but during motion, it also caused the light output from the entire screen (not just the letterbox bars) to increase and decrease, occasionally “popping” after a scene change. We tested the feature with tests specifically designed to reveal such video processing, and found that the Medium and High settings have some dynamic gamma behavior included. In our view, that’s a more noticeable characteristic than the letterbox bars not appearing jet-black. As a result, we stayed with “Low”."


This is why I don't take too much stock in what I read from reviews. Many reviews gloss over or don't even mention issues that other reviews do mention. You would think that if expertreviews encountered the dimming effect from Cinema Black, they would have mentioned it in their review. Yet no mention of any negative effects from Cinema Black, even though hdtvtest took a full paragraph to address the issue.

I don't believe the hdtvtest.co.uk review was talking about Cinema Black in that paragraph, unless the European models have different values. Off, Low, Medium and High are Smart LED values (though Medium is called Standard). Cinema Black is just On or Off.
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post #1906 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:53 AM
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I also question this comment from expertreviews:

"For an LCD TV, the F8000 coped impeccably with motion, even before we’d enabled Samsung's Motion Plus frame creation system. The only exception was 24p Blu-ray content, which experienced some slight judder, but turning Motion Plus to its lowest setting eliminated it without introducing unrealistic image smoothing or motion artefacts."

They seem to be complaining that the tv actually displayed 24p content with the correct film cadence. That's how it sounds to me. If they knew anything, they would certainly know about the natural film judder of 24p content. So if they are experiencing film judder with 24p blu-rays, then that is good, because the tv should be displaying the proper film cadence like last year. Don't we want the tv to display slight judder with 24p content, as long as it's the proper 24p film judder?

Also, yet another review that claims that the lowest setting of AMP motion interpolation (clear) causes no unrealistic image smoothing. I heard the same things last year from some reviews. Even on the lowest setting of "clear" last year, it was very obvious to me when AMP was on. If I had AMP on during some sports or something else earlier and I land on a movie later, it took me all of about 2 seconds to notice that I had forgot to disable AMP from earlier. "Clear" was the lowest setting, yes, but it still most definitely caused some unnatural motion in 24p content that was easy to recognize immediately. I could close my eyes and you could randomly turn it on or off and I would always know each time exactly what setting you left it on the moment I looked at the motion. I'm surprised that these "professional" reviews can't notice this difference in motion.
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post #1907 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I don't believe the hdtvtest.co.uk review was talking about Cinema Black in that paragraph, unless the European models have different values. Off, Low, Medium and High are Smart LED values (though Medium is called Standard). Cinema Black is just On or Off.

Here is the leading paragraph that I didn't post above:

"Since the LEDs are mounted vertically, an approximate local dimming effect can still be provided over rows (groups of lines) on the panel. This doesn’t sound useful at first, but Samsung provides a feature called [Cinema Black] which means that the LEDs responsible for illuminating the areas of the LCD which show letterbox bars at the top and bottom of 2.35:1 scope ratio movies (that’s almost everything coming out of Hollywood) can be dimmed.

Given that adjusting this control requires a trip into the menu, which fills most of the screen, it can be difficult to appreciate the difference between the settings.
Therefore, we set up a locked-off camera and shot some pictures of the letterbox areas on all four settings (Off, Low, Medium and High). In the scene we chose, Off and Low gave the same result, as did Medium and High. This did have the intended effect of dimming the letterbox bars, but during motion, it also caused the light output from the entire screen (not just the letterbox bars) to increase and decrease, occasionally “popping” after a scene change. We tested the feature with tests specifically designed to reveal such video processing, and found that the Medium and High settings have some dynamic gamma behaviour included. In our view, that’s a more noticeable characteristic than the letterbox bars not appearing jet-black. As a result, we stayed with “Low”."


It seems that they are talking about Cinema Black here. I dunno. I thought Cinema Black only had on and off too, but they start talking about Cinema Black at the end of one paragraph, and talk about changing it's settings in the next paragraph, so it seems to me the dimming they're referring to in this case is caused by Cinema Black. Am I reading this wrong? I don't think I am. Could they have different settings than we do for Cinema black? If so, then do we have dimming issues like they said they have over there? They claim to have 3 settings, but you said we only have on or off. So is our "on" more like their low, their medium, or their high?
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post #1908 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:07 PM
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I don't think you're reading it wrong, but if the European models use the same values as the North American ones, then the review either effed up or is poorly written.

Personally, I haven't noticed any dimming with Cinema Black enabled. I almost don't even need to enable it. I have yet to notice a big difference with it off or on. The black bars remained deeply black and uniform regardless of the setting I used. This TV is ace.
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post #1909 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:07 PM
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Regarding 3D, from expertreviews:

"There does appear to be some slight frame interpolation happening in the background, but it's slight and didn't affect our watching."

This still makes me nervous. Last year there was no forced motion interpolation in 3D mode. If the motion looks smoothed in 3D mode, I may have a real issue there with that. I could distinctly see film judder last year in 3D mode, when AMP was off. This has me worried.

And how do they see "slight" motion interpolation n 3D mode, yet claim that AMP on low in 2D causes no motion smoothing? Very odd what they seem to notice in these reviews.
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post #1910 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I don't think you're reading it wrong, but if the European models use the same values as the North American ones, then the review either effed up or is poorly written.

Personally, I haven't noticed any dimming with Cinema Black enabled. I almost don't even need to enable it. I have yet to notice a big difference with it off or on. The black bars remained deeply black and uniform regardless of the setting I used.

I wonder if the setting really even has much of an effect. When I was playing around with the setting in Best Buy, with a very short segment of letterbox bars, I remember enabling Cinema Black, and I really didn't see any noticeable difference. Of course it was under less than ideal conditions - in a darker room maybe it would be more noticeable? I couldn't remember though if the setting had just on and off or multiple settings like mentioned in the hdtvtest review. You've confirmed that there is only on or off so I don't know what's up with that review, and I wonder just how effective this feature even is.
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post #1911 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Personally, I believe it's far too early to assume it's a step-up from last year. While it does seem that way from early reviews, there are very few owners of the set currently, and remember that last year, the pro reviews were also very favorable and spoke pretty highly of the ES series, even though they ended up having many issues once people started buying them and realizing the faults.

Once previous owners of last year's sets start buying this year's, then we'll really start to hear if the sets are indeed an improvement.

Agreed. Believe I even saw es8000 owners going to the stores to compare and not seeing much visible improvement.
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post #1912 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:16 PM
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On Samsung's page for the F8000, they list "Precision Black Local Dimming" and "Micro Dimming Ultimate" as two different technologies. I'd love to know what the actual difference is between them. They have no listing yet for their F7500 so I can't compare to see the difference between the 7500 and the 8000.

According to their description of "Precision Black Local Dimming":

"Produces a much greater increase in contrast and black levels by dimming LEDs behind dark areas of the picture thus making blacks darker without affecting brighter elements of the picture."

Also, under their description for "Micro Dimming Ultimate", they say:

"Our innovative technology scans zones across the image and adjusts brightness to deliver deeper dark tones and brighter whites."

According to all this, there is no need to auto-dim the entire screen anymore just to create deeper blacks. If this is true, then we should see absolutely no signs of "CE-Dimming" - the full-screen auto-dimming that previous generations suffered from. They specifically say they can dim the darker areas without affecting the brighter elements in the image. This is totally different from how CE-Dimming affected the image, which hurt brighter elements in order to "deepen" blacks. But I will be shocked if CE-Dimming is indeed gone.
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post #1913 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Regarding 3D, from expertreviews:

"There does appear to be some slight frame interpolation happening in the background, but it's slight and didn't affect our watching."

This still makes me nervous. Last year there was no forced motion interpolation in 3D mode. If the motion looks smoothed in 3D mode, I may have a real issue there with that. I could distinctly see film judder last year in 3D mode, when AMP was off. This has me worried.

And how do they see "slight" motion interpolation n 3D mode, yet claim that AMP on low in 2D causes no motion smoothing? Very odd what they seem to notice in these reviews.

The interpolation is there, but it's not that noticeable at all. It is a bit smoother, but it doesn't look like a soap opera effect. It just made the presentation less headache inducing to me during camera pans or fast action sequences without making the image look unnatural. Your mileage may vary, though. I personally can't say how it compares to the ES series.
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post #1914 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:31 PM
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Something else strange I noticed on Samsung's description of the F8000's features:

Definition of "Precision Black Local Dimming":

"Produces a much greater increase in contrast and black levels by dimming LEDs behind dark areas of the picture thus making blacks darker without affecting brighter elements of the picture."

Description of "Ultra Clear Panel":

"Produces a much greater increase in contrast and black levels by dimming LEDs behind dark areas of the picture thus making blacks darker without affecting brighter elements of the picture."

Hmm... rolleyes.gif
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post #1915 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

I don't think you're reading it wrong, but if the European models use the same values as the North American ones, then the review either effed up or is poorly written.

Personally, I haven't noticed any dimming with Cinema Black enabled. I almost don't even need to enable it. I have yet to notice a big difference with it off or on. The black bars remained deeply black and uniform regardless of the setting I used. This TV is ace.

So then do you think that maybe what they meant to be talking about was the "Smart LED" setting when they were mentioning the screen dimming and popping? Maybe the reviewer got the terms confused or confused the effects of 2 different settings?
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post #1916 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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This is how the settings are on my f8000.

Dynamic Contrast

Off
Low
Medium
High

Smart LED

Off
Low
Standard
High

Cinema Black

Off
On
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post #1917 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Some review sites are better than others.

No reviewer is infallible and therefore any can make a mistake.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1918 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Pickstv View Post

This is how the settings are on my f8000.

Cinema Black

On
Off

This is how it used to be on my D8000, but everyone who has the F8000 has said cinema black is now an off, low, medium, high setting...???

My ES8000 settings, calibrated with an i1D3 and calman: Standard Mode, Movie Mode (out of date, will update soon)
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post #1919 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post

This is how it used to be on my D8000, but everyone who has the F8000 has said cinema black is now an off, low, medium, high setting...???

Mavinwow,

I'm looking at my settings now...Cinema Black...Off...On

Don't know what else to say? Except I do have the 1015.2 update.
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post #1920 of 3719 Old 03-25-2013, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pickstv View Post

Mavinwow,

I'm looking at my settings now...Cinema Black...Off...On

Don't know what else to say?

Bizarre, what firmware are you on? Menu, support, contact samsung will pull up your info

My ES8000 settings, calibrated with an i1D3 and calman: Standard Mode, Movie Mode (out of date, will update soon)
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