Is current HDMI over Ethernet compatible with 4K TVs and devices? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-08-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking of installing HDMI over Ethernet throughout my house. Is HDMI over Ethernet able to support video, audio, data, etc. for 4K TVs and devices?
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-08-2013, 06:30 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any consumer devices that are currently available that use ethernet over HDMI. Certfied High Speed HDMI cables support ethernet and 4k (including a couple of other specs that aren't yet available) so it's sort of buying for the future. I use Certified High Speed HDMI cables on my HTS and it works just fine. If you want to buy for the immediate future (more than what you currently need or is currently available), Certified High Speed HDMI cables will be fine. However, keep in mind that passive High Speed HDMI is really only certified for up to about 25'. You should run your cables in conduits so as to make it easier to change or fix cables as your needs and standards change. A lot of folks are starting to install CAT6. Your best bet would be to ask your question in the HDMI forum. There are a couple of very knowledgeable posters there. And you don't need to buy the overpriced "M" brand of HDMI cables because you won't get any better performance than other brands that cost considerably less. Certified is the key word.
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-08-2013, 06:45 PM
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Good advice above, but man I always hate CES; people jump on "can I support this?" bandwagon for stuff that hasn't even hit the market yet.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-08-2013, 09:09 PM
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Yeah. CES does get folks excited. HDMI specs, Standard and High Speed, have been available online for quite some time so the OP's question about what it supports could have easily been found elsewhere. He can still install HDMI with ethernet and it won't hurt anything but it sounds like his expectations won't be realized.
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post #5 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I need to clarify my question... Are/will 4K devices using/continue to use HDMI as one of their primary inputs? If so, would the new HDMI specs/certifications (I'd imagine there are some) for 4K devices render HDMI over Ethernet useless (i.e., 4K devices need more than 10 GB/s bandwidth)?

In case you're unaware, HDMI over Ethernet is used to extend HDMI over its 25 foot limitation (it extends it up to 30 meters/90 feet). So before I wire my house with HDMI over Ethernet for use with these wall plates, http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=2, I just want to know if HDMI will change drastically due to 4K devices and subsequently leave me with outdated wiring.

Also, this has nothing to do with CES, 4K has been on my brain for months now.
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post #6 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiTY View Post

I think I need to clarify my question... Are/will 4K devices using/continue to use HDMI as one of their primary inputs? If so, would the new HDMI specs/certifications (I'd imagine there are some) for 4K devices render HDMI over Ethernet useless (i.e., 4K devices need more than 10 GB/s bandwidth)?
In case you're unaware, HDMI over Ethernet is used to extend HDMI over its 25 foot limitation (it extends it up to 30 meters/90 feet). So before I wire my house with HDMI over Ethernet for use with these wall plates, http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=2, I just want to know if HDMI will change drastically due to 4K devices and subsequently leave me with outdated wiring.
Also, this has nothing to do with CES, 4K has been on my brain for months now.

The current High Speed HDMI specs are (partial list):

Deep Color
xvYCC Color
Dolby Digital and DTS
DTS-HD Master Audio (lossless)
Dolby TrueHD (lossless)
ARC (Audio Return Channel)
4K, 1440p, 1080i/p, 720p, 480i/p
3D
HDCP Compliant
340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps
Ethernet (optional)

If the cable is Certified for the length that you want to use, then you're ok. However, High Speed HDMI is only certifiable for lengths up to 25' for a passive cable. That means the HDMI cable is only "guaranteed" so meet those specs up to 25'. Any claim otherwise is suspect. It's anybody's guess as to what ethernet over HDMI will be used for, or if it will even get adopted for consumer video devices. I had to use CAT6 for 45' cable runs for my security cameras because CAT5 ethernet wouldn't adequately transmit the live and stored video at a considerably lower resolution than we're talking about, and I don't know if CAT6 or 6e spec are incorporated into the High Speed HDMI specs. If you want to re-wire your house for current and forseeable future specs based on the current High Speed HDMI specs, then Certified High Speed HDMI with ethernet will be fine, for now. But there's no telling how and when those specs will change and if the consumer mfrs will adopt them. If you really want to "wire for the future" then run your wiring thru conduits. That way you can easily change your wiring scheme as your needs evolve. Just because a wall plate is advertised as being compatible with ethernet over HDMI, it doesn't mean you're going to be able to find a consumer device that will have HDMI inputs that take advantage of the ethernet capability at the lengths you'll need.
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 10:50 AM
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It seems the OP is talking about something he's calling "HDMI over Ethernet" and everyone else is talking about something called "Ethernet over HDMI." I presume these are two totally different animals. What the OP is actually talking about is neither of the above and appears (to me) to be HDMI over CAT6 STP wiring which variously claims to be able to extend HDMI anywhere from 75 to 100 feet?
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrodanco View Post

It seems the OP is talking about something he's calling "HDMI over Ethernet" and everyone else is talking about something called "Ethernet over HDMI." I presume these are two totally different animals. What the OP is talking about appears (to me) to be HDMI over CAT6 STP wiring which variously claims to be able to extend HDMI anywhere from 75 to 100 feet?

"HDMI over Ethernet", exactly! Thank you! It'll allow me to have a nice clean setup in every room where only the TV is present and all the other devices (cable/satellite set top box, Tivo, Apple TV/Roku/HTPC, AV receiver, etc.) sits in the basement AV room.
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

It's anybody's guess as to what ethernet over HDMI will be used for, or if it will even get adopted for consumer video devices.

One of "Ethernet over HDMI" actual uses is to share the network connection between supported devices. For example, if your smart TV is connected to the network/Internet, you don't have to setup wireless connection or run Ethernet to your Blu ray player, because it will can use the same network connection from the TV over HDMI. Almost like daisy chaining.
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 01:48 PM
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Then I would suggest, as I already have, to ask your question in the HDMI Q&A forum. They will advise you best. Maybe HDBaseT which uses CAT5e/6 cabling would be better. I still think that "HDMI over ethernet" and "Ethernet over HDMI" are the same thing. You're still using an HDMI cable/connector with ethernet wiring.
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Then I would suggest, as I already have, to ask your question in the HDMI Q&A forum. They will advise you best. Maybe HDBaseT which uses CAT5e/6 cabling would be better. I still think that "HDMI over ethernet" and "Ethernet over HDMI" are the same thing. You're still using an HDMI cable/connector with ethernet wiring.

Well, through this discussion it appears HDMI 1.4/a is not the concern anymore since its already near or at its maxed spec and HDMI over Ethernet still works with it just fine (evident by the buyers' reviews of the product on Monoprice). The concern now is if or when HDMI will be replaced as the primary input technology for 4K devices. I guess I just answered my own question (read: don't wire home with HDMI over Ethernet since the current HDMI technology has run its course already).

Also, HDMI over Ethernet and Ethernet over HDMI are not the same thing. EoH isn't spec'd for lengths greater than 25 feet and HoE is. EoH has an "Ethernet channel", HoE probably does not. EoH looks like a regular HDMI cable and HoE is a Ethernet cable that connects to HDMI converters or adapters on both ends.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Then I would suggest, as I already have, to ask your question in the HDMI Q&A forum. They will advise you best. Maybe HDBaseT which uses CAT5e/6 cabling would be better. I still think that "HDMI over ethernet" and "Ethernet over HDMI" are the same thing. You're still using an HDMI cable/connector with ethernet wiring.
Hi Otto. I'm brand new here (at avsforum), but I'd like to suggest using the terms as follows:

"Ethernet over HDMI": Ethernet Packets (IP, UDP, and maybe others) are sent with an HDMI cable "in the middle". This native in modern HDMI, although the bandwidth is limited. I won't discuss it further, because the device which DigiTY pointed at is not doing this.

"HDMI over Ethernet": HDMI packet data, including it's timing requirements, is assembled into Ethernet Packets ... and sent over TCP/IP wiring (optionally changing the physicial media at various points)... then re-assembled into physical, properly timed and properly laid out HDMI wire data packets at the other end.

But, DigiTY's devices can assemble these "packets" of HDMI data into any alternative type of "packet" they choose. These are not necessarily IP routable Packets. I will go further and SWAG that they are almost certainly NOT even Ethernet-compatible use of the cables! There are fascinating warnings about "not smaller than 24AWG"... which means (possibly) that they are excluding nearly all 1000BaseT Cat7 cables, because they are running too much voltage for the 24-27AWG wires which CAT7 usually implies.

Too put in a less complicated way: They might be using Ethernet Cat6 cables, but they are not using the cables to actually run Ethernet. (With standard voltage and phase data signaling methods. More likely, they use the 8 wires in a somewhat unique protocol (adding more possible voltage and phase values into the overall signal, creating an instantaneous pattern which supports more "bits" than standard 1000BaseT). If I'm right, then it's extremely unlikely that these can be pushed to even higher speed. If I'm wrong, and the ARE using standard Ethernet voltage/phase signaling patterns, then they must be running at speeds WAY ABOVE 1Gbit/sec (the 1000BaseT standard speed), or they are depending on your video not really needing all the bandwidth which a 1080p signal might require. (And if that's the case, they might be dead already.... even at 1080p, you need almost 3Gb/sec of data capacity to keep up with an un-compressible HDMI signal.)

Which leads me to ask: How many of those CES-2013 displays are being connected via DisplayPort, rather than HDMI? (DisplayPort goes up to 10.8 GB/sec, it's data rate was upgraded to that value for exactly this reason - supporting "4K" Display devices).
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post #12 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 06:12 PM
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The HDMI 1.4 standard supports 4K but is limited to 24 Hz refresh rate. The soon to be released "next generation" HDMI standard (probably to be called version 1.5) will support 4K at 60 Hz. Of course support for any type of 4K signal is only an option in the HDMI 1.4 standard for video sources and displays. However current HDMI cables rated as high speed should have the brandwidth to support 4K at 24 Hz and I would assume that HDMI over CAT 6 solutions, if claimed to support high speed HDMI (i.e., as used with version 1.4), should also support passing 4K at 24 Hz. As pointed out above, generally when we talk about HDMI over CAT cables this is simply using the CAT cable for a point-to-point connection and these signals cannot be passed over a ethernet LAN. There are some recently introduced HD video specific networking solutions such as HDBaseT which is described as "an all-in-one digital connectivity technology that easily solves common installation challenges, including performance over long distance, ease of installation, reliability, flexibility and low cost of installation—all without compromising on quality." but I don't know if any of these networking solutions are currently claiming support for 4K in any form.

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post #13 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 06:59 PM
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These converters allows you to send HDMI signals over a single cat6 cable. Its HDMI 1.4 and supports 4k at 24Hz:


http://cypeurope.com/Puma/PU-1109-KIT-v1.4-HDMI-over-Single-CAT6-HDBaseT-5Play-Transmitter-Receiver-Set-100m.html


By connecting the sender to the internet, the system is able to send both HDMI and network data using the same cat6 cable. Quite expensive tough, around 1000-1200 dollars.

A cheaper version exist (400-500 dollars) with less range and no simultanous internet funtionality.
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-09-2013, 07:52 PM
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Thank you Ron Jones and bonzichrille for your contributions. I think HDBaseT would be the way to go.
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe Cat 6 can do 10 Gb/s even though its not officially rated/certified for it, just like Cat 5e can do 1 Gb/s even though its not officially rated/certified for it.

Also the HDMI over Cat extender wall plate I referenced in an earlier post is all I would of needed in my situation. It appears HDBaseT does something similar and adds the feature of splitting HDMI data and network data which I don't need. Plus it adds hundreds more to the cost.
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 08:33 AM
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I would still suggest you ask your question over in the HDMI Q&A forum to remove any possible lingering doubt of what you want to do. The guys over there really do know their stuff and can support it with technical info.
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I would still suggest you ask your question over in the HDMI Q&A forum to remove any possible lingering doubt of what you want to do. The guys over there really do know their stuff and can support it with technical info.

Thanks for the suggestion, but from the research I've done during this thread its apparent the writings on the wall for HDMI. I just won't wire my house for that technology.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DiGiTY View Post

Thanks for the suggestion, but from the research I've done during this thread its apparent the writings on the wall for HDMI. I just won't wire my house for that technology.

Well, at least you can wire your house. I can't frown.gif
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post #19 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiTY View Post

I think I need to clarify my question... Are/will 4K devices using/continue to use HDMI as one of their primary inputs? If so, would the new HDMI specs/certifications (I'd imagine there are some) for 4K devices render HDMI over Ethernet useless (i.e., 4K devices need more than 10 GB/s bandwidth)?

In case you're unaware, HDMI over Ethernet is used to extend HDMI over its 25 foot limitation (it extends it up to 30 meters/90 feet). So before I wire my house with HDMI over Ethernet for use with these wall plates, http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8008&seq=1&format=2, I just want to know if HDMI will change drastically due to 4K devices and subsequently leave me with outdated wiring.

Also, this has nothing to do with CES, 4K has been on my brain for months now.

I recommend these cables for long lengths (or if you just want thin, light cables that carry signals as well as thick ones like 24 AWG). I've had great results with them so far.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255#1025501
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 02:49 PM
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@DiGiTY - This is a response I got for your question from Joe Fernand:


HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC) – must have seemed a good idea at the time but as no hardware manufacture I’ve come across has so far dared to try and implement it it’s a complete Dodo, http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hec.aspx

HDMI over Ethernet – utilises dynamic compression to allow you to pass HDMI signals over a single CAT cable via a managed switch (if you want multiple sources). Not sure it would be my first choice for my home AV network as no matter what some folk say the image has to be compressed to make this work.

HDMI over HDBaseT – utilise the Valens HDBaseT or HDBaseT-lite Transmitter and Receiver chip set to extend HDMI (uncompressed) out to 100m or 60m and by virtue of the Transmitter chip ‘packetizing’ the HDMI signal you can (note can) run 10/100 down the same wire, though many folk are shying clear of doing that and preferring to run a separate cable for an IP network. You wouldn’t want the HDBaseT 10/100 limitation becoming a choke point on your IP network!

RedMere – passive cables which steal power from the Source end of the HDMI cable run to power equalizer circuitry at the Sink end of the cable run! Seems to be pretty stable but ‘future proofed’ – not if the equalizer circuitry fails to talk to your Source or Sink or fails because of some new ‘feature’ in whatever comes next with HDMI!

Conduit – your best option if you want 100% future compatibility!


Hope this helps.
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I recommend these cables for long lengths (or if you just want thin, light cables that carry signals as well as thick ones like 24 AWG). I've had great results with them so far.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255#1025501

Thanks for the suggestion, but I would probably stick to HDMI over Ethernet as 1000 foot of Ethernet is about the same price as one of those 60 foot HDMI cables.
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

@DiGiTY - This is a response I got for your question from Joe Fernand:


HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC) – must have seemed a good idea at the time but as no hardware manufacture I’ve come across has so far dared to try and implement it it’s a complete Dodo, http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hec.aspx

HDMI over Ethernet – utilises dynamic compression to allow you to pass HDMI signals over a single CAT cable via a managed switch (if you want multiple sources). Not sure it would be my first choice for my home AV network as no matter what some folk say the image has to be compressed to make this work.

HDMI over HDBaseT – utilise the Valens HDBaseT or HDBaseT-lite Transmitter and Receiver chip set to extend HDMI (uncompressed) out to 100m or 60m and by virtue of the Transmitter chip ‘packetizing’ the HDMI signal you can (note can) run 10/100 down the same wire, though many folk are shying clear of doing that and preferring to run a separate cable for an IP network. You wouldn’t want the HDBaseT 10/100 limitation becoming a choke point on your IP network!

RedMere – passive cables which steal power from the Source end of the HDMI cable run to power equalizer circuitry at the Sink end of the cable run! Seems to be pretty stable but ‘future proofed’ – not if the equalizer circuitry fails to talk to your Source or Sink or fails because of some new ‘feature’ in whatever comes next with HDMI!

Conduit – your best option if you want 100% future compatibility!


Hope this helps.

Hmmm... I never knew about the compression thing. Though you do run 2 (two) cables with HDMI over Ethernet; one for each direction... which theoretically gives you a total of 20 Gb/s and that's more than the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI 1.4 spec...? Hmmm... I wonder if he's stating fact or a hypothesis?
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiTY View Post

Hmmm... I never knew about the compression thing. Though you do run 2 (two) cables with HDMI over Ethernet; one for each direction... which theoretically gives you a total of 20 Gb/s and that's more than the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI 1.4 spec...? Hmmm... I wonder if he's stating fact or a hypothesis?

Knowing him it's fact.
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiTY View Post

Hmmm... I never knew about the compression thing. Though you do run 2 (two) cables with HDMI over Ethernet; one for each direction... which theoretically gives you a total of 20 Gb/s and that's more than the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI 1.4 spec...? Hmmm... I wonder if he's stating fact or a hypothesis?
HDMI over Ethernet solutions use a single cable. AFAIK there are no products that work on 10Gb networks, just 100 Mb and 1Gb. a 1080p60 HDMI signal is about 4.45 Gbps. Obviously, the signal has to be compressed.
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post #25 of 27 Old 01-10-2013, 06:45 PM
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^^^^^^ thanks Colm. I tried to get this conversation moved over to the HDMI Q&A forum but was unsuccessful, so I brought HDMI Q&A here smile.gif
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post #26 of 27 Old 01-11-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

HDMI over Ethernet solutions use a single cable. AFAIK there are no products that work on 10Gb networks, just 100 Mb and 1Gb. a 1080p60 HDMI signal is about 4.45 Gbps. Obviously, the signal has to be compressed.

There's still some confusion here. HoE uses two Ethernet cables... at least the wall plates and other equipment I've looked at so far does (have you actually looked at the back of them yet?). Also, there's no actual networking - just using Cat 5/6 cable, physically, to take the place of HDMI cable. Networking might be done with HDBaseT or EoH, but not HoE.
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-11-2013, 12:40 PM
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Otto and DigitTy are saying what I did, but with more information in fewer words. I had guessed that the interfaces were using some DAC to convert HDMI data into Ethernet-wire compatible packets of some kind, and DiGiTY has tracked down the specific devices through his friend (i.e., the fact that those wall plates contain Valens or HDBaseT-lite converters at each end). I had also assumed that the devices were using a single Ethernet cable, 4 wire pairs, to do the job ... but the DAC devices might need a total of 8 pairs to do the job in either direction.

The key phrase from DiGiTY is "....there is no actual networking - just the cat5/cat6 cable, physically". Great post! And so, the original to answer the original question: No, these devices were almost certainly NOT designed to handle the 4K HDMI protocol when they were created and are therefore NOT capable of converting data at the rate required for 4K HDMI. New versions will be required.
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