Official Vizio M-Series Razor Mxx1i thread - Page 238 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #7111 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 02:09 PM
Member
 
Padinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by jptech View Post

Has anyone with an M55 received 1.09.38.xxxx via update?

I have not. Lord are they slow.
Padinn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7112 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 03:19 PM
Member
 
jptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Elm View Post

Mine looks exactly like the second picture. I guess there is no point in exchanging for another one in hopes of not getting one with this. I have not seen the flashlighting/light bleed in the 4 corners yet...what pattern would I play where that would be most evident?

The second picture is by design. That's how it's supposed to look on an edge-lit screen.

Let me address the issue of "flash lighting". There are cases of legitimate light bleed. It happens on all led-lit devices. Maybe most of these posts about "I'm exchanging my vizio for a" should first ask 2 questions. Am I trying to watch in a dark room? Is my brightness too high?

Bias lighting may be a solution for some. On a dark black screen, I see the edge lighting as was designed. I also have bias lighting. I cannot see the flashlighting on my screen.
This is a black screen during netflix content.
jptech is offline  
post #7113 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 04:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 103
From what I've seen on the Vizio M501d-A2R I would classify three different issues.

The first is black level uniformity. This is exhibited as a particular area or areas of the screen being visibly brighter than others when a completely black/blank screen is presented. On the two that I've been involved with, the lower right corner of the screen was noticeably brighter than the rest but not distractingly so. This was not at all apparent when there was any image on the screen. I've also seen this on other types of televisions.

The second is light bleed around the frame. Both TV's exhibited this, but it is only visible when viewed considerably off axis (looking at angles close to parallel to the screen surface). I did not find this in any way effected the picture when viewed at any normal angle. When viewed from the side of the TV small white bars or lines of light can be seen in between the frame and the screen.

The third is the only one that I would refer to as "flashlighting". I only found this visible when titles were either stationary or scrolling on a black background, and smart dimming was selected. Each of the titles and adjacent screen area appeared to be illuminated as if by a flashlight at one side of the screen or the other, as if someone was holding a flashlight directly to the side of the TV and trying to light up the text with it. I only noted this on the first TV that ended up being returned for other issues and before the smart dimming on it was turned off. I turned smart dimming off from the beginning on the second TV.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #7114 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 04:44 PM
Member
 
jptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

From what I've seen on the Vizio M501d-A2R I would classify three different issues.

The first is black level uniformity.

The second is light bleed around the frame.

The third is the only one that I would refer to as "flashlighting".

black level uniformity is never going to be like you want it on an edge lit screen. There are better panels than others in the same batch. It has to do with how the layers are sealed together.

Light bleed is a real issue, but only for some unlucky few. It happens when the seal around the frame allows the "BACKLIGHT" to seep through. These are edge lit panels. Light bleed is kind of how they work, but this would technically qualify as lighting uniformity. It's more of an issue with backlit panels.

Flashlighting, as you've clarified it is simply how these edge lit panels work. What you're seeing is actually a reflection of the open crystals off the front layer of the panel. This is why white or lit areas bleed out around black areas.

It may be more noticeable on panels that have fusing/sealing defects. Bias lighting might help those with minor defects simply not be able to detect them.
jptech is offline  
post #7115 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 04:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Jasonn B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by jptech View Post

black level uniformity is never going to be like you want it on an edge lit screen. There are better panels than others in the same batch. It has to do with how the layers are sealed together.

Light bleed is a real issue, but only for some unlucky few. It happens when the seal around the frame allows the "BACKLIGHT" to seep through. These are edge lit panels. Light bleed is kind of how they work, but this would technically qualify as lighting uniformity. It's more of an issue with backlit panels.

Flashlighting, as you've clarified it is simply how these edge lit panels work. What you're seeing is actually a reflection of the open crystals off the front layer of the panel. This is why white or lit areas bleed out around black areas.

It may be more noticeable on panels that have fusing/sealing defects. Bias lighting might help those with minor defects simply not be able to detect them.

Great info. I'm very happy with mine and am still wondering if they spent more time designing or have a better led design in the 80:




80" Vizio LED - (60" Vizio plasma - retired)
Harmony 890 Remote
X10 Commander Iphone App = full control of lights, fireplace, pool, shades, from Iphone
X10 IR543 controller
Hunter Douglas motorized shades

 

Jasonn B is offline  
post #7116 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 06:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
PlayNice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonn B View Post

Great info. I'm very happy with mine and am still wondering if they spent more time designing or have a better led design in the 80:




What image/source are you using for both pics? Is it a center rectangle of 100% grey/white surrounded by 0% grey/white? Where did you find the image. Thank you in advance.

Vizio 80" 3D LED M801D-A3 SpectraCal-CalMAN 5
Onkyo TX-NR818 w/ Polk Monitor 50 (Fronts), Onkyo SK-520 (Surronds), SKW-770 (Sub)
Win 8.1 PC i7 3930k, 2 Crossfire 280X's, 32GB RAM | Mac Mini 2011 i5 2.3Ghz, 16 GB RAM w/ PLEX
Roku 3
Oppo BDP-103D
Xbox One, PS4, Xbox 360 S, PS3 Slim
Harmony 700
PlayNice is offline  
post #7117 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 07:18 PM
Senior Member
 
tigepilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

From what I've seen on the Vizio M501d-A2R I would classify three different issues.

The first is black level uniformity. This is exhibited as a particular area or areas of the screen being visibly brighter than others when a completely black/blank screen is presented. On the two that I've been involved with, the lower right corner of the screen was noticeably brighter than the rest but not distractingly so. This was not at all apparent when there was any image on the screen. I've also seen this on other types of televisions.

The second is light bleed around the frame. Both TV's exhibited this, but it is only visible when viewed considerably off axis (looking at angles close to parallel to the screen surface). I did not find this in any way effected the picture when viewed at any normal angle. When viewed from the side of the TV small white bars or lines of light can be seen in between the frame and the screen.

The third is the only one that I would refer to as "flashlighting". I only found this visible when titles were either stationary or scrolling on a black background, and smart dimming was selected. Each of the titles and adjacent screen area appeared to be illuminated as if by a flashlight at one side of the screen or the other, as if someone was holding a flashlight directly to the side of the TV and trying to light up the text with it. I only noted this on the first TV that ended up being returned for other issues and before the smart dimming on it was turned off. I turned smart dimming off from the beginning on the second TV.

Thanks KC. A lot of people get the different types of 'flaws' mixed up when describing what they don't like and it makes it hard for everyone to keep up with what we are really talking about. Been several times over the course of this thread I wanted to correct someone and decided to let it go.

As for the black level uniformity, I see the same thing if the smart dimming is off and I'm in a nearly black room and the screen is on something all black. But like you, it doesn't effect normal viewing in the least. I'm really surprised people would make an issue of this if it was as good as my TV.

As for the light bleed, I don't really see any... more of the uniformity issues as previously mentioned. But I have not tried to view the TV at near parallel angles either. Who would?

The flashlighting I do see. But only with smart dimming on. So far though, I've preferred the picture with the smart dimming on even with the flashlighting. I don't notice the flashlighting often enough for me to give up those inky black. But I can see someone else preferring to have it off.
tigepilot is offline  
post #7118 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 07:32 PM
Member
 
DaveMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Got the 1.09.42.1498 update tonight on my M501d-A2R. Serial number starts with "27". Noticed I had to be very close to the TV (like 3 feet) when reactivating the remote, or the process would fail. Remote seems a bit snappier, but I'll continue to use my Harmony.

DaveMN is offline  
post #7119 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 07:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Jasonn B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayNice View Post

What image/source are you using for both pics? Is it a center rectangle of 100% grey/white surrounded by 0% grey/white? Where did you find the image. Thank you in advance.

I just switched to HDMI 3 which is empty for me smile.gif That's it. You can do same thing to get that image.

80" Vizio LED - (60" Vizio plasma - retired)
Harmony 890 Remote
X10 Commander Iphone App = full control of lights, fireplace, pool, shades, from Iphone
X10 IR543 controller
Hunter Douglas motorized shades

 

Jasonn B is offline  
post #7120 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 07:49 PM
Member
 
siddiqsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Gigot the 1.09 update on mine. Remote works great
siddiqsa is offline  
post #7121 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 09:57 PM
Member
 
siddiqsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I got the update and the remote works great when the TV is switched on but I can't get the TV to switch on with the remote. I have to first switch the TV on with my dish receiver remote and then use the TV remote
siddiqsa is offline  
post #7122 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 10:26 PM
Member
 
JD4L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 11



Makes me want to sale my tv!!!! Any fixes
JD4L is offline  
post #7123 of 9947 Old 01-15-2014, 11:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
PlayNice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonn B View Post

I just switched to HDMI 3 which is empty for me smile.gif That's it. You can do same thing to get that image.

With the new set I have the screen goes full screen 100% white on an input that has no active device, is this at new firmware trait or is this exclusive to my set?

Vizio 80" 3D LED M801D-A3 SpectraCal-CalMAN 5
Onkyo TX-NR818 w/ Polk Monitor 50 (Fronts), Onkyo SK-520 (Surronds), SKW-770 (Sub)
Win 8.1 PC i7 3930k, 2 Crossfire 280X's, 32GB RAM | Mac Mini 2011 i5 2.3Ghz, 16 GB RAM w/ PLEX
Roku 3
Oppo BDP-103D
Xbox One, PS4, Xbox 360 S, PS3 Slim
Harmony 700
PlayNice is offline  
post #7124 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 04:11 AM
Member
 
jptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Can those posting how they got their 1.09 updates please post the full version, their model number, and the first 2 of their serial number.
jptech is offline  
post #7125 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 06:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4L View Post

Photo (Click to show)


Makes me want to sale my tv!!!! Any fixes

That's what I consider to be "flashlighting". Have you tried turning off smart dimming?
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #7126 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 06:29 AM
Member
 
jptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

That's what I consider to be "flashlighting". Have you tried turning off smart dimming?

That's a pretty extreme case, but still by design.
jptech is offline  
post #7127 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 06:37 AM
Member
 
Justinss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jptech View Post

That's a pretty extreme case, but still by design.

Mine does that as well.
Justinss is offline  
post #7128 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 07:53 AM
Member
 
tdeath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

That's what I consider to be "flashlighting". Have you tried turning off smart dimming?
That's what happens to mine too...
Does the smart dimming off fixes that in yours KC-Technerd?
Has anybody of you (with this problem) realize if this light coming from the right of the screen appears also during the normal viewing of the tv?
Mine does...frown.gif with very dark movies with a lot of dark scenes like Sinister where this light coming from the right follows the bright object in the dark scene and it's really annoying...
Has anyone noticed of that?
Or in the credits, for example in the beginning if kill bill vol.1...that light follows the credits everywhere...
As I said, for price, features and what we have in the market currently to choose (I wanted a P-series but I cannot wait 7-8 months...), I'm pretty much content with my TV, except for 'dark' movies at night that makes me quite annoyed...(talking with vizio about that...)
tdeath is offline  
post #7129 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 09:55 AM
Member
 
JD4L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yes It messes with my picture when watching tv dark scenes like in dark knight I can actually see a thick line go all the way across the screen due to different brightness levels.... Pretty annoying I'm going to try turning off smart dimming later and if anyone has the 5.1 vizio surround sound does your rear speakers ever have distortion with high treb???
JD4L is offline  
post #7130 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 10:12 AM
Senior Member
 
waylo88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Turn off Smart Dimming, problem solved. Unless your backlight bleed is so insanely bad that you absolutely need to keep it on (in which case, just exchange the television), there is zero reason to use Smart Dimming as it introduces unneeded bleed (as evidenced by that picture).
waylo88 is offline  
post #7131 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 10:25 AM
Member
 
Justinss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by waylo88 View Post

Turn off Smart Dimming, problem solved. Unless your backlight bleed is so insanely bad that you absolutely need to keep it on (in which case, just exchange the television), there is zero reason to use Smart Dimming as it introduces unneeded bleed (as evidenced by that picture).

Turning smart dimming off will result in flashlighting from 1 or all of the corners though.
Justinss is offline  
post #7132 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 10:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justinss View Post

Turning smart dimming off will result in flashlighting from 1 or all of the corners though.

That's not what I'd refer to as flashlighting. It is an un-uniformity in black level, which becomes more obvious when the smart dimming is turned off because the black level is then brighter. It has a significantly different appearance than what I call flashlighting. Both the TVs had/have that and it is most obvious in the lower right corner.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #7133 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdeath View Post

That's what happens to mine too...
Does the smart dimming off fixes that in yours KC-Technerd?
Has anybody of you (with this problem) realize if this light coming from the right of the screen appears also during the normal viewing of the tv?
Mine does...frown.gif with very dark movies with a lot of dark scenes like Sinister where this light coming from the right follows the bright object in the dark scene and it's really annoying...
Has anyone noticed of that?
Or in the credits, for example in the beginning if kill bill vol.1...that light follows the credits everywhere...
As I said, for price, features and what we have in the market currently to choose (I wanted a P-series but I cannot wait 7-8 months...), I'm pretty much content with my TV, except for 'dark' movies at night that makes me quite annoyed...(talking with vizio about that...)

I noticed this on the first TV (that got returned for other reasons) before smart dimming was turned off. Exactly as you are describing. I did not notice it once smart dimming was turned off. I've never seen it on the second TV because it hasn't been operated with the smart dimming turned on. Turning smart dimming off may result in the un-uniformity of black level being more noticeable. On a completely black/blank screen you may notice that a corner, corners, or other particular areas are brighter than others. I didn't find it to be a significant issue on either TV. My own Sony TV has similar variance from uniformity on a completely black screen.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #7134 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 11:21 AM
Member
 
se7encrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Noticed several posts from users finally receiving the 1.09 updates on their TVs. Those who have received the update, can you state which TV size you have so we can get an idea of which models this is rolling out to?

Thanks!
se7encrows is offline  
post #7135 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 12:17 PM
Member
 
DaveMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 20
1.09 recipient here. Received evening of 1/15. My pertinent info:

Version: 1.09.42.1498
Model: M501d-A2R
Serial number starts with "27"
KC-Technerd likes this.

DaveMN is offline  
post #7136 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 12:40 PM
Member
 
siddiqsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMN View Post

1.09 recipient here. Received evening of 1/15. My pertinent info:

Version: 1.09.42.1498
Model: M501d-A2R
Serial number starts with "27"

can you switch on your TV with your updated remote.
I will appreciate your response. After the update I cannot switch on the TV with the VIZIO remote. I have to use my dish remote to switch on the TV but from there on the remote works like a charm
siddiqsa is offline  
post #7137 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 12:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
dvdchance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Carteret, Middlesex County, NJ
Posts: 793
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMN View Post

1.09 recipient here. Received evening of 1/15. My pertinent info:

Version: 1.09.42.1498
Model: M501d-A2R
Serial number starts with "27"

I have a M50 with a serial of 27LWJJOICP02***

I'm wondering if all the 50's start with 27?
dvdchance is offline  
post #7138 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 01:06 PM
Member
 
DaveMN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by siddiqsa View Post

can you switch on your TV with your updated remote.
I will appreciate your response. After the update I cannot switch on the TV with the VIZIO remote. I have to use my dish remote to switch on the TV but from there on the remote works like a charm

No on/off problems for me.

DaveMN is offline  
post #7139 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 02:37 PM
Member
 
Padinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by siddiqsa View Post

Gigot the 1.09 update on mine. Remote works great

What does your serial start with? I'm 34.
Padinn is offline  
post #7140 of 9947 Old 01-16-2014, 03:53 PM
Member
 
gsr852's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hello all, just purchased the Vizio M651d-A2R in place of the E601i-a3. In the E601i-a3 owners thread there was a calibration list containing all user settings and those discovered on CNET and like sites. Is there such a master list somewhere within this thread?

Thank You
gsr852 is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
sony dhg-hdd250 , Vizio 32 Inch Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio 55 Inch Class Theater 3d Edge Lit Razor Led Lcd Hdtv M3d550sl , vizio m401i-a3 40" hdtv , Vizio M471i A2 47 Inch Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio M551d A2r 55 Inch 3d Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio M601d A3r 60 Inch 3d Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio M651d A2r 65 Inch 3d Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio M701d A3r 70 Inch 3d Smart Led Hdtv , Vizio M801d A3 80 Inch 3d Led Hdtv
Gear in this thread

    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page


    Forum Jump: 

    Posting Rules  
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are Off
    Pingbacks are Off
    Refbacks are Off