New 2013 Sharp 80 inch LC-80LE857, LC-80LE757 , LC-80LE650 : "Edge Lit" or "Full Array"? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 37 Old 02-13-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Was anyone at CES or otherwise know if the New 2013 Sharp LC-80LE857, LC-80LE757 , LC-80LE650 is/are "Edge Lit" or "Full Array"?

Thanks in advance!

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Bump- does anyone know?

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #3 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 09:16 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
anthonymoody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: ny, ny usa
Posts: 5,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Seems to be a lot,out there creating FUD. The press releases are sort of inconclusive in that they point to them being edge lit but given the fact that the existing 80"era are backlit I would wait to see a shipping version. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking, nerf herder.
Double True!
anthonymoody is offline  
post #4 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am trying to decide between grabbing an 844 Series 80 inch Sharp fro $3800 +/-, or, waiting for the LC-80LE757.

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #5 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 09:58 AM
Member
 
hdaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The 2013 Sharp 80 sets are all edge lit, confirmed multiple times by Sharp representatives at CES 2013, the displays are noticeably thinner related to this change.
hdaudio is offline  
post #6 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdaudio View Post

The 2013 Sharp 80 sets are all edge lit, confirmed multiple times by Sharp representatives at CES 2013, the displays are noticeably thinner related to this change.

If you were at CES, did you think the aesthetics of a narrow bezel and decreased depth offset the PQ difference that might exist between the new edge lit lc-80le757 and the Full Array 2012 844 series?

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #7 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 12:09 PM
Member
 
stevenpaulrhodes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

If you were at CES, did you think the aesthetics of a narrow bezel and decreased depth offset the PQ difference that might exist between the new edge lit lc-80le757 and the Full Array 2012 844 series?

I don't care if it is thinner, I want the best picture quality. I need to decide now before the new 80" ones come out whether they are worth waiting for. I am finishing a new house.

Does anyone have advice?
stevenpaulrhodes is offline  
post #8 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 12:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenpaulrhodes View Post

I don't care if it is thinner, I want the best picture quality. I need to decide now before the new 80" ones come out whether they are worth waiting for. I am finishing a new house.

Does anyone have advice?

Have a look at the edge-lit sets and see what you think. I was extremely skeptical last June when I picked up a 70" set, but I've been very happy with it.
I haven't had the clouding and flashlighting problems that some have had. The picture is uniformly bright or dark and colors are all uniform.
The technology of edge-lighting seems to have leapfrogged that of full-array, with far fewer problems and artifacts.
Take a look at some of the complaints about uneven color and brightness and halo effects (on locally dimmed sets -- not Sharp models) and see if those
issues are more important than the flashlighting and clouding that may occur with edge-lighting. Neither technique is perfect. LCD is not perfect, but it's good!
johnfull is offline  
post #9 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 02:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 1,132
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 191 Post(s)
Liked: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

Was anyone at CES or otherwise know if the New 2013 Sharp LC-80LE857, LC-80LE757 , LC-80LE650 is/are "Edge Lit" or "Full Array"?

Thanks in advance!

I just confirmed with Sharp that the 80-inchers are, indeed, edge-lit. The 90-inchers are full-array backlit, but without local dimming. Only the Elite TVs provide local dimming.


Scott Wilkinson
AVS Editor
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #10 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

I just confirmed with Sharp that the 80-inchers are, indeed, edge-lit. The 90-inchers are full-array backlit, but without local dimming. Only the Elite TVs provide local dimming.

So, with that understood, do you think I should wait a bit buy the new Edge Lit lc-80le757 or grab a closeout deal on the Full Array 2012 844 series?

Is it true about Edge Lit leap frogging the Full Array and having fewer problems and a fine picture quality, or, is it just a design necessity by most manufacturers to make the sets aesthetically thinner regardless of PQ?

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #11 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 03:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

So, with that understood, do you think I should wait a bit buy the new Edge Lit lc-80le757 or grab a closeout deal on the Full Array 2012 844 series?

Is it true about Edge Lit leap frogging the Full Array and having fewer problems and a fine picture quality, or, is it just a design necessity by most manufacturers to make the sets aesthetically thinner regardless of PQ?

Some of each, I would think.
I bought my 70" at the insistence of a household member who liked the thin profile more than the picture.
I have been lucky to have one that doesn't exhibit flashlighting or clouding issues.
Of course, the full array sets can have problems with blotchy whites and discoloration in different regions.
They use a lot less diffusion material between the LED and the pixel, so variations from one element to the next will be noticeable.
This could be a problem as the LEDs age. The Sharps are not locally dimmed, so you don't get that advantage (and potential for
other problems) with the full-array. Spend some time looking at the sets in a darkened environment and insist on taking the set
out of torch mode to see how it performs. The higher price of the full-array is because of the higher cost to manufacture.
It's up to you to decide if it's superior in performance. Sharp seems to think it's not worth the difference to prospective buyers...
johnfull is offline  
post #12 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Some of each, I would think.
I bought my 70" at the insistence of a household member who liked the thin profile more than the picture.
I have been lucky to have one that doesn't exhibit flashlighting or clouding issues.
Of course, the full array sets can have problems with blotchy whites and discoloration in different regions.
They use a lot less diffusion material between the LED and the pixel, so variations from one element to the next will be noticeable.
This could be a problem as the LEDs age. The Sharps are not locally dimmed, so you don't get that advantage (and potential for
other problems) with the full-array. Spend some time looking at the sets in a darkened environment and insist on taking the set
out of torch mode to see how it performs. The higher price of the full-array is because of the higher cost to manufacture.
It's up to you to decide if it's superior in performance. Sharp seems to think it's not worth the difference to prospective buyers...

If the new sets are in fact all Edge-Lit then I believe Sharp is looking to meet the market demand for the thin aesthetic more than pursuing a better picture quality.

As an added benefit to Sharp the Edge-Lit sets are cheaper to make than the Full Array sets they replace.

Also, by the time I will be able to see then side-by-side there won't be any factory sealed 844's left to buy.
rogo likes this.

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #13 of 37 Old 02-14-2013, 05:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

If the new sets are in fact all Edge-Lit then I believe Sharp is looking to meet the market demand for the thin aesthetic more than pursuing a better picture quality.

As an added benefit to Sharp the Edge-Lit sets are cheaper to make than the Full Array sets they replace.

Also, by the time I will be able to see then side-by-side there won't be any factory sealed 844's left to buy.

Better get the older, better model while you can. I'm sure you'll be happier with it.
johnfull is offline  
post #14 of 37 Old 02-15-2013, 11:50 AM
Member
 
darynm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is really bizarre that they are going edge lit. Newer doesn't always mean better which is a shame. Glad I just got my 80 inch 844 model. It's a great TV and am very happy with it and the deal I got it for.
darynm is offline  
post #15 of 37 Old 02-15-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Better get the older, better model while you can. I'm sure you'll be happier with it.

Who has the best deal this weekend on the 2012 Model 844 80 Inch Sharp?

Thanks in advance.

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #16 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 12:20 AM
Member
 
Tbonenga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I was looking at the new 8 series 80". I know it has the dual core so you can do a split screen TV / internet at the same time. The 2013 models also switch to the universal 3D glasses I think.
From what I'm seeing here it seems like most people are saying the 80" 844 series will have a better picture than the new 80" 8 series. Can some people confirm that please. Also I've seen the 844 on east coast tvs site below 4 grand. Can anybody vouch for this company?

Thanks in advance
Tbonenga is offline  
post #17 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 12:20 AM
Member
 
Tbonenga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I was looking at the new 8 series 80". I know it has the dual core so you can do a split screen TV / internet at the same time. The 2013 models also switch to the universal 3D glasses I think.
From what I'm seeing here it seems like most people are saying the 80" 844 series will have a better picture than the new 80" 8 series. Can some people confirm that please. Also I've seen the 844 on east coast tvs site below 4 grand. Can anybody vouch for this company?

Thanks in advance
Tbonenga is offline  
post #18 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Should I grab a 2012 Sharp Aquos LC80LE844U 80-inch or wait for the 2013's

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #19 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 04:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
SonyHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

Should I grab a 2012 Sharp Aquos LC80LE844U 80-inch or wait for the 2013's

If I was in your shoe (I already own 844u) I would wait for the new model 857 to see if it's worth it to get that given you are only 2 or 3 month from seeing that in the stores. Speculation is that it will be edge lit which may imply worse PQ but no one is really sure yet. Also once the new set is released I think you would see downward pressure on the price of the 844u so if the PQ isn't any better on 857 you could decide to go with 844u. I think you should be able to find 844u in stock for few months after 857 comes out.

Also if price is a concern you probably won't see 857 at current price levels of 844u probably for a year after it's released.
SonyHome is offline  
post #20 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 04:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

I just confirmed with Sharp that the 80-inchers are, indeed, edge-lit. The 90-inchers are full-array backlit, but without local dimming. Only the Elite TVs provide local dimming.
The bottom line is, if a set is backlit it will "act" like a edge lit unit and have all of the anomalies unless it has local dimming. I hate to say it, but it is more or less a play on words frown.gif So as of this moment we have the XBR Sony and the LG 9600 series that are local dimming and still being produced frown.gif
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #21 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 04:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatuglyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 94
I'll echo what was said in earlier posts, Sharp rep at my store confirmed that the 80" models are going edge-lit. No really surprising considering that they did the same thing with the 70" models (2011 models were full array, 2012 are edge-lit). Seeing them in action will be the real test. I am not a huge fan of the 80" models as I notice mild banding on the display 80" LE632 model and pretty severe banding on the 844. Oddly, I don't notice any banding on the shelf display 90LE745.

ht Panasonic 60" ZT60, Monitor Audio: Silver RX6, RX Centre, Radius 90HD; Martinlogan Dynamo 700, Marantz SR5006, PS3, Oppo BDP-103D
2ch Sony KDL-32W650A, Sony BDP-S1000ES, Marantz PM8004, JVC T-X3 tuner, Monitor Audio Silver RX1, REL T3, Apple TV, Peachtree Audio DAC•iT, Sennheiser HD598
lr Panasonic 50" ST60, Sony BDP-S5100, Apple TV
pc Energy CB-5, Audioengine D1, FiiO A1
fatuglyguy is offline  
post #22 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I am not a huge fan of the 80" models as I notice mild banding on the display 80" LE632 model and pretty severe banding on the 844.


Why would the 844 have worse banding than the 632?

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #23 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The bottom line is, if a set is backlit it will "act" like a edge lit unit and have all of the anomalies unless it has local dimming. I hate to say it, but it is more or less a play on words frown.gif So as of this moment we have the XBR Sony and the LG 9600 series that are local dimming and still being produced frown.gif

Would a 2013 Edge Lit Sharp 80 inch lc-80le757-lc likely have more or less issues than a Full Array 2012 844 Series?

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #24 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatuglyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

Why would the 844 have worse banding than the 632?

Luck of the draw pretty much. I'm pretty sensitive to banding on LCD displays. I still have a 2009 model LC-46LE700UN (full array) that exhibits noticeable/moderate banding. Most have it, some more apparent than others

ht Panasonic 60" ZT60, Monitor Audio: Silver RX6, RX Centre, Radius 90HD; Martinlogan Dynamo 700, Marantz SR5006, PS3, Oppo BDP-103D
2ch Sony KDL-32W650A, Sony BDP-S1000ES, Marantz PM8004, JVC T-X3 tuner, Monitor Audio Silver RX1, REL T3, Apple TV, Peachtree Audio DAC•iT, Sennheiser HD598
lr Panasonic 50" ST60, Sony BDP-S5100, Apple TV
pc Energy CB-5, Audioengine D1, FiiO A1
fatuglyguy is offline  
post #25 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Sequoia, CA
Posts: 30,112
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkerdman View Post

Would a 2013 Edge Lit Sharp 80 inch lc-80le757-lc likely have more or less issues than a Full Array 2012 844 Series?

Yes.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
rogo is offline  
post #26 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mkerdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Haha!

Murray Kerdman
mkerdman is offline  
post #27 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 05:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatuglyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes.

Couldn't agree more!

ht Panasonic 60" ZT60, Monitor Audio: Silver RX6, RX Centre, Radius 90HD; Martinlogan Dynamo 700, Marantz SR5006, PS3, Oppo BDP-103D
2ch Sony KDL-32W650A, Sony BDP-S1000ES, Marantz PM8004, JVC T-X3 tuner, Monitor Audio Silver RX1, REL T3, Apple TV, Peachtree Audio DAC•iT, Sennheiser HD598
lr Panasonic 50" ST60, Sony BDP-S5100, Apple TV
pc Energy CB-5, Audioengine D1, FiiO A1
fatuglyguy is offline  
post #28 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 06:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
SonyHome's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I'll echo what was said in earlier posts, Sharp rep at my store confirmed that the 80" models are going edge-lit. No really surprising considering that they did the same thing with the 70" models (2011 models were full array, 2012 are edge-lit). Seeing them in action will be the real test. I am not a huge fan of the 80" models as I notice mild banding on the display 80" LE632 model and pretty severe banding on the 844. Oddly, I don't notice any banding on the shelf display 90LE745.

I don't see any banding on 844u. That must be input source quality issue.
SonyHome is offline  
post #29 of 37 Old 02-19-2013, 08:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatuglyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Source does not cause banding. Banding is generally a manufacturing issue endemic to LCD-based displays. Like I said, some sets don't have it as badly as others and some people aren't as sensitive to it as others, just like some aren't sensitive to plasma phosphor trails.

ht Panasonic 60" ZT60, Monitor Audio: Silver RX6, RX Centre, Radius 90HD; Martinlogan Dynamo 700, Marantz SR5006, PS3, Oppo BDP-103D
2ch Sony KDL-32W650A, Sony BDP-S1000ES, Marantz PM8004, JVC T-X3 tuner, Monitor Audio Silver RX1, REL T3, Apple TV, Peachtree Audio DAC•iT, Sennheiser HD598
lr Panasonic 50" ST60, Sony BDP-S5100, Apple TV
pc Energy CB-5, Audioengine D1, FiiO A1
fatuglyguy is offline  
post #30 of 37 Old 03-19-2013, 10:30 PM
 
jbkbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've been looking at an 80" Sharp for a while now. Not sure which model I really want. I would hope that as technology improves the newer models will continue to improve. I'm building a new theater room right now so I have to wait on replacing my 70" Sony XBR LCoS rear projection set in the family room. I really like the 90" & loved it when I looked at it in Best Buy but it's hard to swallow double the cost for 10" more. eek.gif
jbkbs is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Sharp He Lc 70le857u 70 Inch 3d Smart Led Tv , Sharp 80 Inch Lc 80le757u Aquos Led , Sharp 80 Inch Le650 Class Aquos Smart Led Tv
Gear in this thread - 70le857u by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off