Official Sony KDL-55W900A Owners Thread - Page 175 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5221 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 04:11 AM
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hi delfin,
yes latest official driver from amd website (with CCC set to full RGB), and my sony 900 tv HDMI port is set to "full". right now i am watching blade runner in full RGB and my CCC driver setting is stable (so, good), but earlier today when i was watching another movie with the same settings it kept reverting o "limited RGB", i have no idea why.


@ *UFO*
this is an image from that earlier weblink article somebody posted. however the article seems to argue (as you so ?) against using "full RGB" on the pc and on the TV HDMI ports ( if i understand the article correctly), but in practice i find exactly the opposite of what they suggest (for me, i loose a LOT of detail black/dark scenes if i dont use "full RGB" in the driver on the pc, and also need to use "full" on the tv HDMI port of my sony 900a tv).

good to use as a quick test for anybody who has their tv already connected to a pc via HDMI:



if your pc monitor is correctly calibrated, you should see all the detail in the shades of grey/black correctly, but how well does your tv display the same image when receiving it over HDMI from the pc ?

- when i watch tihs via the HDMI port on my tv ( with the above stated CCC full RGB setting, and my sony HDMI port set to "full"), i can see all the detail down to the darkest blacks.
- when the sony tv HDMI port is set to "auto" or "limited" all the detail the darker black blocks disappears. when watching a movie like blu ray version of "blade runner" the black crush it creates i VERY noticable and the movie is just about unwatchable

Last edited by Jorgens; 02-17-2015 at 04:23 AM.
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post #5222 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
If you are not watching movies, there is no different between full or limited. As long as both the display and signal are set the same (full - full and limited - limited). However, when you play a movie or netflix, no matter what you set your signal to, it will be displayed in limited. For this reason, I always use limited.
My old TV didn't support RGB Full, so I was never able to experiment with this setting before.

Being as the W9 does support it, I tried the PS4 and TV set to Full, but then the settings were out when it switched to Limited for video content, so I returned the PS4 to Limited and the HDMI input to Auto.
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post #5223 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 04:58 AM
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@CaptinCrunch ;

have you used your tv for some il2 flightsim gaming yet ?
when watching ingame recordings of DCS (partic promos of the new EDGE scenery (due for release in the next couple of months) it looks already pretty amazing in HD on this sony display panel in its current unfinished alpha state. for ex see their latest promo vid
ps: make sure to set youtube video player to HD

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post #5224 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 05:07 AM
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Hi,
how this change from Full to Limited happens? Do the TV also blink for a second when this change occurs? Do you then need to go to CCC and set RGB range back to Full?
Which player do you use? Try with Kodi 14.1 and reset all the settings to default if you already using it or some older version of XBMC. Please check also the COLOUR SPACE SETTING inside Kodi Video settings that 16-235 is not selected.
Anyway, I also use latest AMD drivers and never observed such a problem with automatic setting within the graphic card driver to go from Full to Limited or the way around.

best, d.
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post #5225 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgens View Post
hi delfin,
yes latest official driver from amd website (with CCC set to full RGB), and my sony 900 tv HDMI port is set to "full". right now i am watching blade runner in full RGB and my CCC driver setting is stable (so, good), but earlier today when i was watching another movie with the same settings it kept reverting o "limited RGB", i have no idea why.


@ *UFO*
this is an image from that earlier weblink article somebody posted. however the article seems to argue (as you so ?) against using "full RGB" on the pc and on the TV HDMI ports ( if i understand the article correctly), but in practice i find exactly the opposite of what they suggest (for me, i loose a LOT of detail black/dark scenes if i dont use "full RGB" in the driver on the pc, and also need to use "full" on the tv HDMI port of my sony 900a tv).

good to use as a quick test for anybody who has their tv already connected to a pc via HDMI:



if your pc monitor is correctly calibrated, you should see all the detail in the shades of grey/black correctly, but how well does your tv display the same image when receiving it over HDMI from the pc ?

- when i watch tihs via the HDMI port on my tv ( with the above stated CCC full RGB setting, and my sony HDMI port set to "full"), i can see all the detail down to the darkest blacks.
- when the sony tv HDMI port is set to "auto" or "limited" all the detail the darker black blocks disappears. when watching a movie like blu ray version of "blade runner" the black crush it creates i VERY noticable and the movie is just about unwatchable
If you are referring to using that specific image for testing black crush, the image itself is crushing blacks. On all my properly calibrated displays, including a laptop, half the squares are completely missing. That image is designed to not show squares on displays set to limited. That is what you want to see.
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Last edited by *UFO*; 02-17-2015 at 06:21 AM.
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post #5226 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 06:36 AM
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hi delfin,
yes, the tv and the pc monitor briefly blink if CCC resets itself to limited RGB
thx for the feedback that your amd CCC driver does not reset itself.
for blu ray movie playing i use powerdvd (i like the cyberlink video codec), but i dont see a color space setting in its preferences. I will try some other video players i already have installed (VLC and MPC) and see if they cause similar problems (i also use cyberlink video codec in them, but they have more settings options iirc)
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post #5227 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delfincek View Post
Hi,
how this change from Full to Limited happens? Do the TV also blink for a second when this change occurs? Do you then need to go to CCC and set RGB range back to Full?
Which player do you use? Try with Kodi 14.1 and reset all the settings to default if you already using it or some older version of XBMC. Please check also the COLOUR SPACE SETTING inside Kodi Video settings that 16-235 is not selected.
Anyway, I also use latest AMD drivers and never observed such a problem with automatic setting within the graphic card driver to go from Full to Limited or the way around.
When I ran my PS4 and TV in Full, there was a noticeable flicker when I played video content, such as a Blu-ray. I guess this was the switch from Full to Limited.

I'm going to set the TV to Limited later to match the PS4 output and see it compares to the TV on auto.

The setting I'm not sure what to do with on the PS4 is Y Pb/Cb Pr /Cr. It has the same options as RGB: Auto, Full, Limited. Should the setting match whatever RGB is set to?

I have PS4 Deep Colour set to off.
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post #5228 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 07:16 AM
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I would suspect that this particular software player is forcing driver to switch to limited. But that is just a guess as I do not use that program and I'm unfortunately not able to test.

I use Kodi for everything.
@mjpartyboy . Yes output of the player or graphic card should always be matched to the TV input. Full - Full or Limited - Limited.

And one word for Dynamic range setting on Sony. If this setting is on Auto and you use graphic cards this setting is not working properly as it will not switch to Full RGB but it will rather stay on Limited mode no matter what. I had that problem last year and Didee kindly reminded us on that problem. And yes he was correct. I had my brightness set to 63 so that I did not have black crushed in.
I have Dynamic Range set to Full and I use Brightness at 50 now, what is also a reference point for usual DVB-C TV programmes.

But I don't know if that setting on Sony TV is working properly with PS4 or not.

best, d.

Last edited by delfincek; 02-17-2015 at 07:38 AM.
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post #5229 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 06:06 PM
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To clear up any confusion here, it is best to set everything to limited for simplicity's sake. Despite the name, limited does not look any different than full when set correctly.
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post #5230 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
To clear up any confusion here, it is best to set everything to limited for simplicity's sake. Despite the name, limited does not look any different than full when set correctly.
Ok I'm a little confused here. I was told by the guy who calibrated my W9 to leave Dynamic range set to Auto for everything and now I am reading here that you are saying leave it on Limited UFO? This is the first time I am stumped.
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post #5231 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
Ok I'm a little confused here. I was told by the guy who calibrated my W9 to leave Dynamic range set to Auto for everything and now I am reading here that you are saying leave it on Limited UFO? This is the first time I am stumped.
For the w9, leaving it to auto is no different than limited. I have found that when the w9 is set to auto, it doesnt actually auto detect full rgb range.
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post #5232 of 5242 Old 02-17-2015, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
For the w9, leaving it to auto is no different than limited. I have found that when the w9 is set to auto, it doesnt actually auto detect full rgb range.
So should I switch it to Limted UFO? Let me know buddy.
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post #5233 of 5242 Old 02-18-2015, 12:41 AM
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Hi,
I just played yesterday and switched between Limited and Full on my HTPC. I set Limited on my graphic card and also on TV. I switched between two modes many times and I just discovered that Full is better for graphic card application. Colors are more vivid and desktop looks better also games looks far better. For movies I did not observed any crush in while playing through Kodi. I froze some details with fairly black background where there are details in the background and Full and Limited looked actually the same. So I will definetely stay with Full RGB and Full on TV in my HTPC aplication.

best, d.
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post #5234 of 5242 Old 02-19-2015, 09:46 PM
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For my PS4 I have On the W9 HDMI dynamic range set to full.
On the PS4 I have everything set to full. For deep color is set to Auto.
Play in game mode and enjoy the beautiful 4:4:4 colorspace.
Both are Sony products so take advantage of the full video output of the PS4.
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post #5235 of 5242 Old 02-20-2015, 09:18 PM
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kdl series

Are all sony kdl now have vedge shape?

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post #5236 of 5242 Old 02-21-2015, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
If you are referring to using that specific image for testing black crush, the image itself is crushing blacks.
i only grabbed that image from a website which i was reading at the time, and dont know its creator or exact purpose (and i presume it has the same application as the lagom.nl test image). to be safe, so we are talking about a known variable, lets use this similar image from the dutch video calibration website

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php#blacktest.png

note: anybody using the image, for accuracy it is usually safer to download and save the image to your pc, and then view it in an image viewer (instead of viewing it directly from the web-browser)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
On all my properly calibrated displays, including a laptop, half the squares are completely missing. That image is designed to not show squares on displays set to limited. That is what you want to see.
i am suspecting i dont understand what you said correctly, because...

when i complete my software calibration process for a display, and have set correctly my black levels with the "pluge w/greyscale" image from DVE (for ex using s brightness level of 51 on the tv), then the outer most of the 3 vertical grey/black bars in that DVE pluge test image just blends into the black background. and if at that setting i then go to view the "black level"blocks test image from the dutch website on the same display (from the link i just posted above), i can still see most of the black boxes in their descending order of bright/dark, except for maybe the last 1 or 2 darkest boxes in the top most row (with. my brightness level on the sony tv set to +/- 51)

imho, if we cant see the top 2 black rows on our display after we have set our brightness/contrast/gamma levels, then there is some serious clipping of black levels going on (am happy to be proven wrong if some avscience experten can explain to me why). i just use that "black blocks" test image from the dutch website as a final check to see if i am in the right ballpark after doing a software calibration on tv/pc-monitor with DVE (i have no hardware calibration device), but afaik most of them should be visible.

in fact i can replicate your experience of "top 2 rows becoming invisible" if i incorrectly set my AMD video card CCC output to full 0 - 255 (this problem occurs with the tv set to full or limited for its HDMI input). With that same (incorrect) setting on the pc grafix card driver video output, , the darkest vertical bar of the DVE pluge test pattern then stays completely invisible even if i set my brightness level on the tv to 100 (confirming to me i would have made an error in my settings). if on the other hand i set my AMD CCC to limited (16-235) and the sony tv to Full (or limited) on HDMI input, i dont have that black level clipping (maybe i am not using the right term there ?) and my vertical black/grey bars on the DVE pluge test image is then correctly visible and can be set correctly with my tv brightness level.

For me the experience is:
amd ccc on full 0-255, and sony hdmi input on full = severe black clipping on DVE test pattern
amd ccc on full 0-255, and sony hdmi input on limited = severe black clipping on DVE test pattern
amd ccc on limited 16-235, and sony hdmi input on full = no black clipping on DVE test pattern, sony tv brightness is correct at 41
amd ccc on limited 16-235, and sony hdmi input on limited = no black clipping on DVE test pattern, sony tv brightness is correct at 51

(note 1: this is while using a normal HDMI port on the tv in cinema mode, not game or grafix mode)
(note 2: black-level/pluge comparison was made with CCC pixel format set to "limited RGB")
(note 3: the sony "auto" setting for the HDMI port seems to also correctly adapt the limited setting in this setup.

this would suggest to me that as long as the output from the pc is in limited 16-235, then our sony tv's can interpret the video signal it receives correctly (other then a change in what is the appropriate brightness level, eg 41 or 51 in my case). i suspect that the limited setting on the sony hdmi port gives a more accurate setting with its 51 brightness level, so that is what i am using now (limited CCC, and limited on sony HDMI). the "limited RGB" also seems to be the correct setting for color pixel format, instead of "full RGB" (using RGB full also slightly darkens the video image compared to using "limited RGB" i found, and some technical video articles i read recently indicated that limited RGB was the correct option for my PC blu ray player being linked to a tv via hdmi )

you stated in one of your posts that you had both pc driver output AND sony HDMI input set to "limited", yet at the same time you say you cant see the 2 upper rows of black boxes at all, which is a bit odd

i claim no expertise here but that is how i interpret what i can observe from some of those different settings on my AMD CCC video output, and the HDMI tv input setting on my sony tv.

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post #5237 of 5242 Old 02-22-2015, 04:27 AM
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For me it is like that.
I tested that with brightness level set at 50 on Sony.

1. TV=Full; Drivers=Full - All blacks are visible in lagom. Only bar 1 and 2 are missing. Colors are very good and vivid
2. TV=Limited; Drivers=Full - First two rows of black bars are not visible in lagom
3. TV=Full; Drivers=Limited - All black bars are visible. Picture is way too much bright
4. TV=Limited, Drivers=Limited - All blacks are visible in lagom. Only bar 1 and 2 are missing. Colors are a bit dead, washed and bright

I use 1. as it gives the best output for me in movies (Kodi player), on the desktop and within games.

best, d.

Last edited by delfincek; 02-22-2015 at 05:03 AM.
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post #5238 of 5242 Old 02-22-2015, 08:18 AM
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delfin,
when you say "bars" do you mean rows (horizontal line) or column (vertical line), or "individual blocks"
and is that with a nvidea or amd gfx card ?

you might need to find a test image that does the equivalent of the "pluge w/greyscale" image from DVE, so you have an accurate way to measure if your display produces the full range of black/white levels that it should. the lagon.nl test image with the black squares does not do the same thing. eg if i set my amd CCC driver output to 0-255 ,which causes the darkest black vertical column on the DVE "pluge w/greyscale" test image to become "invisible" (eg it is not even visible against the dark background at all even with brightness set to 100 on the sony display), then i still easily have enough brightness in the lagom.nl test image to see all the black squares

i believe you might be experiencing the same error in setup that i had (before ufo's recent post prompted me to do some further reading to clear up my own confusion). or maybe you might have found a windows video player that bypasses some of the normal microsoft OS way of processing input/output of video (see below for explanation) and you are using your sony 900a on game or grafix mode ?

most people would set their scene selection for the hdmi port to "scene select" cinema (as i did, and most here probably do). previously i would have described my displayed video (with my incorrect settings, similar to what i think you might be describing now) as something like "deep rich blacks with high contrast and vivid colors". one poster at another avscience forum thread i found mentioned however that if the driver on the pc output was not set correctly to limited 16-235, then the black levels on the TV hdmi input (even if that HDMI input was set to limited or full) were being read incorrectly by the tv, resulting in a loss of detail in the black range (a version of the "black crush"). this same error setting also artificially raised the contrast (and changed the "white point" ?), with the resulting "incorrect" video image often being described by the user as "pleasing to the eye" with very deep blacks (but with lack of detail). the artificially higher contrast made the colors pop more. i think it also might have raised the white point, making the image brighter (which partially makes up for the darker image, but can not improve the detail lost in the black crush). that description made me do the 16 a/b comparisons of settings to see exactly how they affected the video being displayed (see my previous post)

the technical background to this (as far as i can make out so far), is that
- all Blu-ray content is stored as YCbCr 4:2:0 on the disc, but HDMI can’t use that format, so it has to be converted to YCbCr 4:2:2, 4:4:4 or RGB first by the OS or video player
- 4:4:4 RGB: is 24 bit per pixel, 4:4:4 YCbCr: 24 bit per pixel, 4:2:2
YCbCr: = 16 bit per pixel, 4:2:0 YCbCr: = 12 bit per pixel
- if we use a stand alone blu ray player connected to a tv, we are better to use YCbCr output since the encoded video on the disc is in YCbCr, the final video being displayed on our pc monitor (or TV) is however in RGB, and any conversion to 8-bit RGB is always slightly lossy. so it is best to make as few converions as possible in the chain to the display (which will display in RGB). so in this case it is better to let your TV do the conversion to RGB ( especially since most tv's convert any received video back to YCbCr internally to then be able to manipulate and process it (eg add motion smoothing effects, reduce noise etc), and then finally converts it to RGB again in the last step before sending it to the display itself.
- for computer based video players connected via hdmi to a tv, we should probably use RGB output on our driver settings (even if you're playing Blu-rays and DVD), because for YCbCr HDMI output would probably mean that the computer is likely doing YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr ( if you set it to output YCbCr). this is because windows OS programming ( since Vista) and OS X (since 10.2) renders OpenGL and/or Direct3D into RGB by default. Theoretically a video player with a hardware overlay based renderer could bypass the RGB step and access the
YCbCr 420 signal received from the blu ray file directly without this forced conversion to RGB ( there might be some software video player for windows/osX which do this, but i dont know of any (yet))
- if we use a hdmi port set to scene cinema/sport etc on our sony 900a tv, then it is probably best to set the pc software driver to use "limited RGB 444" as output, but if we use the scene select for gaming/grafix (which bypasses most of the internal video processing ) we might be able to use "full RGB 444"
(i had some good info on this but cant locate it now).
- there are major advantages (in addition to the low input lag) to using the game/grafix mode setting to receive RGB video signals from our pc's over HDMI to watch movie/video because this sony 55w900a model can also process RGB 444 video signals (with
full chroma) directly, and the tv doesnt have to convert it to YCbCr 422 before processing it and it will send this "clean" RGB signal directly to the display without further conversion steps (since there is not much precessing being done, most of those options are therefore greyed out in our settings options when using those modes). from the many discussions and forum posts on this topic over the last years, we are fortunate our sony KDL-55W900A's can do this correctly (and still carried audio over this same HDMI signal), and it is one of the reasons that this is one of the better HD models with a larger price tag. i have only just started to experiment with this setting, and ultimately this method is the best/cleanest/purest way to display video from our pc's over hdmi (but it has certain limitations to it, and can be rather complex to setup correctly)


if there are any errors in my information summary, or if others have found a better way to do this (eg produce more accurate and better quality video on our displays), please correct me

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post #5239 of 5242 Old 02-23-2015, 12:36 AM
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Hi,
I have AMD Sapphire HD6870 graphic card with the latest drivers. Player is Kodi 14.2. I use Full on TV and Full on graphic card for best result in all applications. I also use Cinema 1 for all aplications and I do not switch to Game mode on Sony TV as I'm very satisfied with the Cinema already. For video calibration I also use THX optimizer and when calibrating grayscale I do not have any problem with black crush. Unfortunately I do not have Digital Video Essentials disc to try also with that.

TV on Full and drivers on Full gives much better result for gaming and desktop aplication as Limited - Limited in my case. Colors for desktop and gaming are much better that way in comparison to Limited-Limited. I also tried Limited - Limited for video that I play through Kodi and I do not see any major difference in comparison if I have it set on Full - Full. Black and details looks very, very similar and I can not say that there is any difference at all. I tried and put to pause many dark scenes and tried to compare the two modes. For the practical reasons therefore I use Full - Full as otherwise Limited - Limited gives not so good results for desktop and PC games application as we can not switch between the two modes on the fly.

p.s. A comment for the bars in the Lagom test. When I say bar i mean individual square. When calibrating desktop the only two modes that are acceptable are:
- TV=Full; Drivers=Full - All blacks are visible in lagom. Only square 1 and square 2 are missing. Colors on the desktop are very good and vivid
- TV=Limited, Drivers=Limited - All blacks are visible in Lagom. Only square 1 and square 2 are missing. Colors of the desktop are a bit dead, washed and bright in comparison to 1st one.

best, d.

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post #5240 of 5242 Old 02-23-2015, 08:51 AM
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There is something bugging me with my 46W905 and the Xbox One and it's something the PS4 doesn't suffer from.

When you set the X1 HDMI input Scene to auto, it doesn't set the picture mode to Game when in the dash, playing games or using apps. It does however auto switch the picture mode to Cinema when you play a Blu-ray in the X1 with Scene set to auto.

The problem with this is it doesn't give you the option to select the Game picture mode yourself when the X1 Scene is auto and none of the picture modes it does present to you allow you to enable the feature that reduces input lag (the one that is enabled by default in Game mode and you can't turn it off), so you can't completely mimic Game mode using auto Scene. So auto Scene does the job for Blu-ray, but not optimal for gaming on the X1.

You can set the X1 to Game picture mode by manually selecting this Scene, but then it doesn't auto switch to Cinema when playing a Blu-ray. The problem here is I have Game mode calibrated differently to Cinema for the different content types.

The PS4 doesn't have this issue with its HDMI input set to auto Scene and switches between Game and Cinema as expected for the relevant content types.

What is the X1 doing differently with its signal to the TV? I have even tried it set to RGB (PC), as opposed to Standard (TV) in the X1 display settings and still the same auto Scene issue not setting picture mode to Game or allowing you to select it.

Last edited by mjpartyboy; 02-23-2015 at 08:56 AM.
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post #5241 of 5242 Old 02-24-2015, 06:51 AM
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Are all sony kdl now have vedge shape?

Yes alot of the new set's from Sony have the wedge shape design. They started that in 2014. I personally HATE IT!
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Jorgens, great post, lots of useful info!

My question: I watch a lot of movies on my pc using mpc-hc and madvr. I have rgb set to full range in both the video card and the TV and I have madvr set to PC levels, but I watch movies in Cinema mode. If I'm correct, the only modes on the w900a that have 4:4:4 are Game and Graphics.


Should I use graphics mode for watching movies with my pc? The only problem is Graphics mode does not have motionflow True Cinema, which brings me to another question, If I'm watching 24p content do I even need motionflow True Cinema?
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