Official Sony KDL-55W900A Owners Thread - Page 176 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5251 of 5260 Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaibrok View Post
I'd read in a few reviews that the TV only does 4:4:4 in graphics and game mode.

I then found this test: http://www.geeks3d.com/20141203/how-...our-4k-uhd-tv/

on my TV at least, the red on blue background part of the picture was somewhat blurry on cinema mode but crystal clear on graphics mode, with identical picture settings. This was with my graphics card set to 0-255 and the hdmi rgb level on the TV set to full.
Hiya, I tried this image and yes in Game and Graphic mode the image looks the most sharp. But OK it is not a major difference and no artefacts like it was shown on the Geeks3d page.
According to this test picture http://www.abload.de/img/420mgrnq.png and how it should look (click), Sony is able to produce 4:4:4 with Game and Graphics modes only.
But if watching movies through Kodi there is no major differences observed in terms of colors reproduction or black level. If I switch quckly between Cinema and Game modes on the still video I practically don't observe any difference in terms of color reproduction. Only difference I observe is that picture on Game mode is more sharp. But the negative side of game mode is that there is no smoothing and no Motionflow which is very useful if properly used.
Game mode has my interest now but need to find settings and features in AMD drivers or Kodi to get the same function as Motionflow does in Sony. Will sure try some tweeks.

Besides that I will also try to download AVSCIENCE video calibration and see the tests that are offered.

best, d.

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post #5252 of 5260 Old Yesterday, 07:01 PM
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The W905 does show the 4:4:4 letters even in Cinema mode. That is, IF you engage RealityCreation on Manual, resolution like 25 or so.

If the internal chain would reduce the 4:4:4 to something lesser, then there would be nothing left over that the RC could dig out again.

Scene Cinema1. RC off.


Scene Cinema1. RC manual, resolution 25.
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post #5253 of 5260 Old Today, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Didee View Post
The W905 does show the 4:4:4 letters even in Cinema mode. That is, IF you engage RealityCreation on Manual, resolution like 25 or so.

If the internal chain would reduce the 4:4:4 to something lesser, then there would be nothing left over that the RC could dig out again.
that is a very interesting observation, but for some reason i am not able to reproduce your findings on my system. if in cinema scene-select i set RC to higher then 25 (or even 50 or 90) the 444 numbers become a bit more visible, but i cant get the 444 numbers on that test image to become brighter/more-visible then the 422 numbers (even by setting RC to 100). i wonder what is different in our pc/tv setups to cause this difference ?

i have attached below the same type of 444 chroma test image but in 720 resolution (which was the original test image posted in another avscience forum thread, before a different user converted it to a 1080 test image), do you still get the same results with that 720 image ?

if i understand Sony's RealityCreation "resolution" setting correctly, it is basically an "upsacaler" which upconverts 480i (or 560i) to 1080i by doubling both horizontal and vertical resolution. RC's resolution setting will basically eliminate scan lines (but doing so can cause some minor new artifacts in the picture). it is a method of processing a received video signal, and for sony is one of the most important features in current higher end tv models to improve video quality in poor resolution signals. eg it boosts the resolution detail of any video signal it receives up to 1080 level for HD tv's. this feature works differently from the sharpness control setting (and a version of this RC resolution setting is also present in sony projectors, 4K tv's etc).

i have seen reference in sony 4K tv reviews that RC also has an options setting to
enable an expanded color gamut, but they mentioned iirc that this was only for the handful of ‘mastered in 4K’ Blu-ray movies that are available so far. is there maybe a RC setting that relates to color on our HD sony tv ?






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post #5254 of 5260 Old Today, 05:18 AM
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On my W905A I also see 4:4:4 letters if reality creation is enabled in Cinema 1 mode. I did not tested without though. How about the picture test in my previous post?
Anyway I'm currently still staying with Full (TV)- Full (AMD drivers) and Cinema mode as it offers the best compromise for my eyes in all aplications like movies, desktop and within games. But for games I know there are some missings but I do not play thut much though.

best, d.

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post #5255 of 5260 Old Today, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by delfincek View Post
On my W905A I also see 4:4:4 letters if reality creation is enabled in Cinema 1 mode. I did not tested without though.
the way to interpret that 422 vs 444 test, is that in a 422 video display system you can barely make out the 444 numbers and 422 is very visible. if the video system is able to display the 444 numbers MUCH clearer and stronger then the 422 numbers then it would suggest the system is 444 chroma compatible.

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Originally Posted by delfincek View Post
How about the picture test in my previous post?
thx for posting it, it is a usefull test image as well. for me your test picture shows the exact same results as what i posted for the 422/444 test image. on "game" scene-select setting when sony w900A is set to RGB, with your new test image i also get the correct expected visual result confirming full chroma at 444.

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Originally Posted by delfincek View Post
Anyway I'm currently still staying with Full (TV)- Full (AMD drivers) and Cinema mode as it offers the best compromise for my eyes in all aplications like movies, desktop and within games..
when you say "Full-TV" are you referring to the AMD CCC setting:
a) "video ---> color ---> dynamic range"--> "full (0 - 255) vs Limited (16 - 235)" or
b) "digital flat panel ----> pixel format ----> sony TV ------> "RGB 444 (Limited RGB) vs RGB (full RGB)"

there is both a limited/full setting for color, and one for the RGB limited/full

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post #5256 of 5260 Old Today, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
If you are referring to using that specific image for testing black crush, the image itself is crushing blacks. On all my properly calibrated displays, including a laptop, half the squares are completely missing. That image is designed to not show squares on displays set to limited. That is what you want to see.
UFO,
because i am finding that using a HTPC is so temperamental and unreliable to produce stable findings, and because of some of these conflicting observations a number of us have reported here, i have reinstalled my AMD CCC driver (to make a clean start) and then made a comparison of what effect the different settings had (either stand alone, or in combination with other settings). i believe 16 possible different main combinations of settings are involved here, and i wanted to see how they affected the DVE black/pluge calibration setting and if the black-crush problem could be reliably reproduced. the end result of this comparative testing are listed below.

for those settings where DVE calibration for black levels worked correctly i then used 2 additional images to determine if any "black crush" was present as a final test (one of which is specifically designed for a VA type panel, which our sony tv uses). For the testing process i also tried to make sure no multiple gfx or video programs were open at the same time, or were present on the sony desktop (which could corrupt obtaining reliable findings). i also used a good reliable image viewer (irfanview) and good dvd video player program (MPC-HT with madVr).

the 2 main variables in AMD CCC (but probably similar settings exist for Nvidia)
a) "video ---> color ---> dynamic range"--> "full (0 - 255) versus Limited (16 - 235)" or
b) "digital flat panel ----> pixel format ----> sony TV ------> "RGB 444 (Limited RGB) versus RGB (full RGB)"
the 2 main variables for the sony tv are
a) HDMI port set to limited or full
b) scene-select mode of GAME (444 chroma) or Cinema (422 chroma)

the results are a bit long to type out, and would need some excel type spreadsheet, however the results were very clear and logical (imho). a summary is:
1) if the CCC video color is set to full (0 - 255) combined with any other of the above CCC or sony tv setting , then there is severe black level clipping and it is impossible to correctly calibrate with DVE on the sony tv screen
- that means that 8 of the 16 possible combinations of those 4 variables (see above) are completely ruled out as viable for good quality video (eg 4 for Game mode, and 4 for Cinema mode)
2) when using CCC video color setting of "Limited (16 - 235)" combined with the setting CCC pixel format "RGB (full RGB)",
- then i was able to correctly calibrate black-level/pluge with DVE (so good !)
- but both "black crush" test images always failed, showed severe black crush. eg for the VA "test" image the text was invisible, and for the second image it had 80% of the black blocks invisible. the only way to correct for this was to turn the brightness up significantly by 10 points (eg 10% of the 100 range) but doing this immediately significantly distorted the previously identified black level setting in the DVE calibration image, and increasing brighness by that 10% also completely "washed out" the colors in normal video
- so that rules out another 4 of the possible 16 combinations of those 4 variables (eg 2 for Game mode, and 2 for Cinema mode)

thus far we just ruled out 12 of the 16 possible settings

of the last 4 possible combinations of those 16 options, 2 gave correct DVE black level calibration results for a sony tv brightness setting of 41, and 2 gave a correct DVE calibration setting for a brightness setting of 51. eg, all 4 of those last options were able to correctly calibrate black-level/pluge with DVE and also at the same time cause no "black crush" on the other 2 test images. the main variable that altered this white/black level by 10% (while maintaining correct DVE calibration for black level, AND did not cause any black crush) was the HDMI limited/full setting on the sony tv HDMI input port.

- i suspect out of those 4 last options, the 2 results that correctly calibrated around 50/51 brightness level are likely to be the "better" ones, but the end result of the quality of the image is the same.
- the only variable that affected this brightness setting was HDMI full/limited on the sony input. the "HDMI full" setting caused the DVE black-level/pluge to drop to 41in DVE (for both game and cinema mode). with the same settings of the other variables being the same, setting the HDMI port of the sony tv to "limited" brought the brightness calibration level back to 50/51 in DVE (which is closer to what is expected). but both of those HDMI port settings were ok for DVE calibration, and neither caused a problem on the black crush image tests, so it is a matter of personal preference untill we find out the exact reason for that observed difference in brightness. so what are these correct CCC and sony settings ?

Conclusion: For the 16 possible options (of the 4 variables involved) in the CCC and sony tv settings listed, there are only 2 possible correct settings identified in either game or cinema mode that will correctly show the right blacklevel/pluge calibration settings with DVE, combined with no visible sign of the black crush problem (the findings are applicable for both Game mode, and Cinema mode) these correct settings are:
- 1) CCC: color ---> dynamic range ---- > "Limited (16 - 235)................ this is the critical one to prevent black level clipping on DVE. setting it to full 0-255 is a big image killer (with the other settings used in this comparison)
- 2) CCC: digital flat panel ----> pixel format ----> sony TV --"RGB 444 (Limited RGB) ............... this is the critical one to prevent black crush in both test images.
- 3) the sony TV HDMI full versus limited setting: neither setting affected black crush or black level clipping (as long as the CCC settings were correct obviously), but setting it to "full" dropped the brightness level by 10 points (in both game and cinema scene-select modes). there are a couple of indications that "limited" might be the more appropriate choice because it brings the brightness level at the expected normal level of 50/51 , and with both CCC settings already at "limited (for RGB and for 16-235) it might make sense to also have limited for the HDMI port. i had also found some clever technical reason why somebody recommended this, but i still cant find the notes on this.
-4) There were no differences for Game vs Cinema mode (on the sony tv) and their relationship to the different CCC settings and finding the correct blacklevel/pluge settings ( or their effect on black crush). both scene settings had the same results for brightness settings for these purposes.

final note:
- after using the above found "best CCC settings" in my setup and then comparing afterwards the video quality in a good blu-ray dvd video for both the the Game and Cinema mode settings on the w900A, the Game mode (444 chroma) seemed to produce a significantly richer image with fuller colors (a subjective observation). i am hoping to locate some test video/images or calibration process that can quantify this more objectively, and will investigate this further.
- the visual "end result" observed in the viewed video quality was also dependent on the video player used ( for eg MPC using MadVr gave for me the best results, where i have already done some basic settings), compared to other video players that i just used with default/standard settings. if anybody uses a HTPC and want to get consistent and good quality video, choosing a reliable good video player without major bugs is also important, and there are several reasons why some bad or incorrectly setup video player can corrupt an otherwise well setup system (like the known bug in WMP for ex).
- I suspect most people that dont want to waste lots of time constantly tinkering with their HTPC are better off using "cinema" mode (with the above CCC and HDMI settings we found to work best), and for those keen on squeezing more performance out of their displays, using game mode 444 chroma might be worth while

thats all folks !

these are 2 good images to use for quick "black crush" testing after the black-level have been correctly set first with a good calibration image (without first setting the black-level correctly, looking for black crush is meaningless)
1) the http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php image, where the upper 3 rows show BTB from 15 to 1 (eg everything darker then 16 in the 0-255 range). after having correctly set the black level with a black-level calibration image, you should still be able to see the full rows of all black squares on that image (except maybe the last 2 darkest blocks on the top left). download the image and view full screen in a good image viewer (not web browser etc)
2) a simple purpose made black background image (1,1,1) with the word TEST written out in a slightly lighter shade of black (9,9,9). viewing it full screen should instantly give an impression of how hard/easy it is to read. with black levels correctly set first, the TEST image should stand out against the darker background
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post #5257 of 5260 Old Today, 11:31 AM
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I dunno what ATI/AMD with CCC is doing or not. I've an Nvidia card running for 5 years, it is putting out 0-255 full-RGB, the W905 is set to "full" RGB too, and it is rendering RGB 1 distinctably against RGB 0, and RGB 253/254 against RGB 255. There is not any black or white crush. The panel renders every even-so-subtle tone, given it is in the signal to start with.
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post #5258 of 5260 Unread Today, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Didee View Post
the W905 is set to "full" RGB too, and it is rendering RGB 1 distinctably against RGB 0, and RGB 253/254 against RGB 255. There is not any black or white crush. The panel renders every even-so-subtle tone, given it is in the signal to start with.
hi didee,

thanks for some of the very informative posts you have made in this thread !

- i can also confirm that with the above settings i identified for AMD CCC, that the sony panel displays WTW and BTB correctly. i have taken screenshots of the displayed video on screen, and loaded them into irfanview and compared dark and light pixels in different areas of the image. i am without any doubt getting below 16 values (down to 1) and above 235 (up to 254). do you know any better way to test for this ?

- i have just watched parts of my goto bluray test movies to judge the end result of using those settings, and the image on the w900a is absolutely stunning (am using the RGB port, and MPCHT with madVr). removing the black crush and obtaining the WTW end of the signal GREATLY improves the detail in the movies i just watched, while still giving deep detailed black/shadows and vivid bright lively colors.

-after the last few weeks doing many comparisons of different settings for HTPC use (and hrs of searching for information to figure out some of the main concepts) , i am now confident these AMD CCC settings are the correct ones that give the best control over the video signal path (from the bluray disc in the pc dvd-drive, to the final video displayed on screen) with a minimum of conversion/processing steps.

and when it all comes together correctly, and presuming we start with good quality video source material, the glory and beauty of this w900A panel really shines, the end result onscreen is absolutely stunning, the best i have seen on any HD tv by far

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post #5259 of 5260 Unread Today, 03:14 PM
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I dunno what ATI/AMD with CCC is doing or not. I've an Nvidia card running for 5 years, it is putting out 0-255 full-RGB,.
Didee,

how does you nvidia setup cope with the black-crush test image from http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php ?

(presuming you have correctly set black-levels first with a calibration DVD, which in your case and all the technical info you posted before, is most likely the case)
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hi didee,

thanks for some of the very informative posts you have made in this thread !

- i can also confirm that with the above settings i identified for AMD CCC, that the sony panel displays WTW and BTB correctly. i have taken screenshots of the displayed video on screen, and loaded them into irfanview and compared dark and light pixels in different areas of the image. i am without any doubt getting below 16 values (down to 1) and above 235 (up to 254). do you know any better way to test for this ?

- i have just watched parts of my goto bluray test movies to judge the end result of using those settings, and the image on the w900a is absolutely stunning (am using the RGB port, and MPCHT with madVr). removing the black crush and obtaining the WTW end of the signal GREATLY improves the detail in the movies i just watched, while still giving deep detailed black/shadows and vivid bright lively colors.

-after the last few weeks doing many comparisons of different settings for HTPC use (and hrs of searching for information to figure out some of the main concepts) , i am now confident these AMD CCC settings are the correct ones that give the best control over the video signal path (from the bluray disc in the pc dvd-drive, to the final video displayed on screen) with a minimum of conversion/processing steps.

and when it all comes together correctly, and presuming we start with good quality video source material, the glory and beauty of this w900A panel really shines, the end result onscreen is absolutely stunning, the best i have seen on any HD tv by far

Great post Jorgens and I agree 100% with your statement--- "and when it all comes together correctly, and presuming we start with good quality video source material, the glory and beauty of this w900A panel really shines, the end result onscreen is absolutely stunning, the best i have seen on any HD tv by far". This is something I've felt from the first moment I turned my W9 on and after I got it pro calibrated it was even better. I cant praise the W9 enough but I am a proud owner thats for sure. If only Sony would have come out with a 65inch W9. What a mistake that was.
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