Official 2013 Sony R550A series TVs (KDL-xxR550A) --- 50", 60", and 70" - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 4346 Old 06-25-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

While this is correct, in fairness it's extremely confusing when Sony so very much under-documents their esoteric settings.  Others' settings are such great starting places....along with the rationales that accompany them.  Things like "I tried this but it completely messed up the green unless the clear-white setting was high", etc.
I totally agree with using some of the other settings recommended here in this thread. Especially some of the last 5 or 6 recommendations because they are usually some final setting settled on after hours of tweaking. Actually if you look at those recommendations I think you'll see that they are not too far apart. For those that are new, here is more of a range selection within those "most recommended settings".
Picture Mode-Custom, Back light 4-6, Picture 65-75, Brightness 45-55, Color 35-50, Hue 0, Color temp, Warm or Neutral. Make sure the light sensor is off and power save is off. All the other advanced settings you can play around with but most just leave them off. FYI, Power Saving is not some attempt from Sony to save you money. They just want the best possible "Energy Star" rating they can get. It really ruins the picture.
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post #1352 of 4346 Old 06-25-2013, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GatorJZ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, thanks. It'd be interesting to see if LG actually STATES that their TVs (2D&3D) are always IPS someplace. Further, it'd be interesting to see if LG actually states that IPS are the only LCD panels (not TVs) they themselves manufacture. That statement does not exist from them that I can find.

BTW, that link contains a fundamental flaw. No one in the industry believes for a second that FPR does not hack the vertical resolution in half. It has to. That polarizing filter they're talking about alternates spin every other scanline. That filter cannot be switched dynamically....it's essentially part of that display's scanline. That's how it works. Even the LG websites themselves had diagrams in stripes. If they attempt to alternate frames so that full information is displayed then they are stuck with 2 problems----they have to back away from the statement that they're using the full frame rate, and further, each eye is STILL only getting half the 1080 (540) lines at a time. You can see this clearly when viewing any side by side comparison at Best Buy. Ironically they state that here as well: http://us.fpr3d.com/what-is-new/articles/Active-3D-vs-Passive-3D (on their own site). Funny too: that article also claims that active is the best 3D experience because of this and it outweighs the loss in frame rate.




Actually, some very highly regarded members of the industry don't buy into this. Active offers better resolution:

1. on paper
2. if you sit abnormally close to the screen.

In other instances, passive offers equal resolution and a better picture.

Don't drink the active Kool-Aid...

http://www.displaymate.com/3D_TV_ShootOut_1.htm

 

I've read every manner of "explanation" on this and If they're saying you don't lose resolution, then they're not paying attention.  And trust me, I've been a passive pundit since I first saw it in action.

 

The equal resolution depends entirely on how you look at it (per frame delivered or per total frame delivered over two half frames): LG was talking about sending every other line of information to each eye on alternating frames.  This resulted in a kind of interlacing effect.  The problem with this is that while you do get each eye fed a full 1080 full of information (after two frames), you are only fed 540 lines at a time, and the gaps line up as well.

 

PLUS the odd and even lines land on precisely the same vertical location (for each eye).

 

I understand the issue full well, and do not like active, but to say that I cannot see a resolution difference in all cases is nuts.  Yes, you gain resolution by the mere fact that there is motion.  But it's still *still* the case that side by side at 10 feet away on a 55" screen I can see the distinct difference.  Is it as bad as half the resolution might seem as a static image?  No way.  But it's not precisely the same.

 

Don't you go drinking any kool-aid either.

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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1353 of 4346 Old 06-25-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a fundamental problem in explaining passive vs. active.  Neither camp is exactly right.

 

If you are faced with someone who believes that active is twice as good as passive, you need to explain to them the distance effects, and how passive will deliver the same information (but take twice as many frames to do it.)

 

If you are faced with someone buying into the passive is the same as active, then you need to explain how having the information over two frames is not the same as having them all together with twice as many lines at once and no gaps.

 

It's very much like someone saying: "1080p is only higher resolution than 1080i on paper and if you're sitting too close".  It skips right over the fact that while 1080i does deliver the information, it does not do it all at once, and the effect just is not as sharp.  Except with passive, there's an additional handicap: in the case of 1080i there can be line-doubling employed; this is not possible with passive, and you always have the L and R eye empty scanlines line up as gaps.

 

The best I can hope to put it is that passive seems maybe 75-80% the effective clarity of active at couch distances.  But it's often a longgggg road to get folks to understand how this is.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1354 of 4346 Old 06-25-2013, 09:22 PM
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Sony KDL-70R550A vs Vizio M-Series Razor M701d

I wanted to share my experience with both these 70” tvs. I purchased the Sony KDL-70R550A first about a month ago for $2399 at my local Costco to replace my Vizio 55” full array LED TV and while I was not super happy with the black levels or the dirty screen effect I could for the most part look past it. When we would watch day to day tv without super dark or super light scenes the PQ was good (good colors) and I was happy with the larger size. However on three separate occasions I was watching TV and it locked up on me the picture would go black and the TV power light would flash red green like it had crashed. When I bought the Sony the Vizio M-Series was still coming soon so I decided to see if it was out yet and to my surprize my local Costco not only had them in stock but was for $2299 less $200 manufacturer's discount (valid 6/22/13 through 7/3/13) or a few hundred less than my Sony. So took the plunge bought it home with some extra cash in my pocket. The following are my impressions after a month with the Sony and few days with the Vizio.

Picture Quality : Winner Vizio

The Local dimming is not as good as my old full array would not expect it to be however the black levels are MUCH better than the sony. The backs on the Sony while not horrible were always a tad grey and if I tried to use the auto brightness it would pick up brightness changes from my content and the screen would change up and down driving me nuts. The Vizo Has 3 levels of auto brightness and is letting me get better blacks when my room is blacked out and bumping up the brightness during daytime viewing. I don't know if it is the better contrast but the Vizio at first almost looked over saturated. I like the colors on the sony but after some tweaking on the Vizio I feel the colors are as good or better than the sony with the better blacks and better contrast. I also have no more dirty screen effect on bright white scenes and while I did not notice them that often with the Sony not seeing them at all has been even better. It could be in my head but it seems like with all of the soap opera effect inducing options disabled it seems like the Vizio handles full screen motion better. I looked it up and it has a 4ms response time but I was not able to find what the sony has.

Cosmedics : Winner Vizio

The Sony has this mirror strip on the bottom of it and at first while not a fan I thought it looked kinda different but didn't think much of it however after mouthing it on the wall I liked it much less. It would reflect back a strip my seating area and I would find my eye darting down to when I would see reflection movement in it. The TV sand was also a bright silver and when I tested it would lean the TV back slightly. The Vizio on the other hand has a very thin bezel and the stand is very sturdy and light grey in color. The Vizio looks very clean look that II appreciate even more coming from the sony.

3D Winner Sony
Both sets have the passive 3D glasses and I was happy with the 3D on both of. The the Sony has a feature that converts 2D to 3D and while I thought this was a gimmick I was surprised that it seemed to work well and was fun to use from time to time. The Vizo on the other hand has no such feature so you will need to get real 3D content to enjoy it.

Remote Winner Sony

The Sony remote is exactly as you would expect a sony remote to be.If you have ever owned a sony product you will be right at home with the remote. Its clean and when you press a button it does something. This is more that I can say for the Vizo it works when it works and then for seemingly no reason at all it will just stop responding to your inputs then all of the sudden work again like nothing was ever the matter. I don't use the web functions but even trying to adjust settings was much more difficult than should have been.On the bright side it is backlit unlike the Sony but I would take a working remote over a backlit one any day of the week.

Web Apps Winner tie?

I don't use them so I am not the best judge of these things the Vizo uses Yahoo widgets the Sony seemed like it had more there the litter I played with them. They both make a deal about them being second generation and much faster but to me they both take forever to load and moving around them both was a slow and clumsy experience made worse on the Vizio by its on again off again remote.

In conclusion I am happy with the vizio and while with costo I have 90 days to make up my mind short of this tv doing something crazy I think its a keeper. The PQ seems much better I like the look of it on my wall better no dirty screen effect much better blacks and a few hundred more in my pocket. I hope this review helps others looking for a 70”
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post #1355 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 04:47 AM
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Find any other entity that did an actual, verifiable and repeatable test other than Displymate. Simply doing the resolution "math" ignores how the brain interprets the data the eyes are seeing.
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post #1356 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 04:56 AM
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N/m..duplicate
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post #1357 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I've read every manner of "explanation" on this and If they're saying you don't lose resolution, then they're not paying attention.  And trust me, I've been a passive pundit since I first saw it in action.

Agreed, sometimes I wonder if folks are wilfully blind or just haven't ever been to an eye doctor.

That there is no resolution loss with passive 3d is complete nonsense. This is extremely obvious with text, small text like you see in general computer usage is almost unreadable, but passive is still way better than active imo and my eyeballs are only 6.5 feet removed from my 70".

I didn't think I would enjoy the 3d much. I had looked at the 65" LG previously in stores and I had to step back about 12 feet to not be bothered by the lines... but that was me being a critical bastard. Now that I actually have the 3D at home I'm amazed at how well it works at only 6.5 feet. The lines are obvious, but as you get sucked into whatever you're watching it's almost like the brain slightly blurs/edits them out and the 3D effect is still extremely potent.

If I want to be critical about it, from the 70" I have to step back about 12 feet to truly not be bothered by it for casual viewing, and about 20 feet to remove all artifacts. 4K will be a huge step in the right direction for passive, but at my more extreme seating distance really going to need 8k for perfection. I also have pretty good vision at about 20/15.
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post #1358 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 09:01 AM
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There is another aspect of Active 3D glasses that I do not care for. Flicker with objects not related to the screen presentation. We have narrow "Room Darkening" blinds in our media room. While the glasses are turned on, if you glance over at the blinds, there is a visible flicker. Also the LED readout on the front of my receiver flickers as well. Distractions that passive glasses do not have. I think that Sony has made a good choice in moving towards passive this year.
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post #1359 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GatorJZ View Post

Find any other entity that did an actual, verifiable and repeatable test other than Displymate.

 

What "actual", "verifiable", and "repeatable" tests are you talking about regarding 3D full HD information?  See below.

 

 

Quote:
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Simply doing the resolution "math" ignores how the brain interprets the data the eyes are seeing.

 

Then you didn't read what I wrote either.  I wasn't simply doing "resolution math".  And I'm talking ENTIRELY about how the brain interprets information.

 

I don't find those tests as verifiable.  Even conducting the at-home test fails.  Further when you dig into the details of the claims, he makes this claim about the 1080 lines of FPR information resulting from fusion:

 

"The theory and fundamental principle behind full FPR vertical resolution and sharpness is that the 3D TV images have only horizontal parallax from the horizontally offset cameras, so the vertical image content for the right and left eyes are in fact identical – but with purely horizontal parallax offsets from their different right and left camera viewpoints."

 

That so far is correct (but needs clarification on "vertical information").  But in any case, he goes off the charts wrong here with his very next sentence:

 

"So there isn’t any 3D imaging information that is missing because all of the necessary vertical resolution and parallax information is available when the brain combines the right and left images into the 3D image we actually see."

 

That's just incorrect, and I don't know anyone else attempting that very claim, not even LG.  For as long as I've been following this, LG made multiple claims, almost certainly marketing driven.  Remember the "Passive allows you to watch 3D lying down" ?????   The current state of what comes out of them is that the delivery of 540+540=1080 was along the time axis, not some magical Left 540 + Right 540 fills in the gaps to 1080 3D.  It does not.  I remember a brief claim that the Left 540 and the Right 540 contained slightly different vertical information (only because the left view might have vertical extents of objects that are obscured from the right eye and thus it added together with more information than 540).  But that wasn't even displaymate's premise above: "the vertical information for the left and right eyes are in fact identical"<---that by itself establishes that you're getting 540.
 

Where the confusion comes in is this: Think in terms of strictly interlacing 2D.  If employed with line doubling, you're getting every a half frame as 540 double-high lines.  You then get a following half frame with the following 540.

 

But keep the 3D 1080i60 you get from your STB out of the equation for the moment, because it will be employing it's own time axis.

 

Now, go to the section where he discusses comparing the sharpness of FPR by turning on and off 3D.  He claims that it passes the test that there is no clarity loss.  I believe that he's getting two arguments confused: the sharpness of the 3D, vs. how much clarity you can see at standard viewing distances.  That last argument goes off the charts in these parts (in 2D).

 

Here's how you should do the test.  Put in Avatar, let it fire up.  Your TV should show it as 1080p24 (which it is).  Now look carefully at the intitial BD menu (play, scene select, etc).  Look at the "play".  Turn off the 3D.  It's now 2D but >poof<....it still sort of looks like it's equally clear.  BUT TAKE OFF YOUR GLASSES and you'll see the 2D "play" is phenomenally clear by comparison.  This is tested by me at precisely 12 feet eye to TV.  Now do the process again and look at the movement behind the menu in 3D.  Cool.  Now switch it to 2D (and take OFF the glasses!).  You'll see the 2D motion looking pretty damn clear but with not as striking an increase as it was when you tested the "play".  This is because of the inherent edge detection in your eye and the increase in effective resolution you get with movement.

 

Finally, he makes an assertion of 3D (either type) being "almost holographic".  Here's that particular quote:

 

Almost Holographic 3D

One of the most fascinating visual effects of 3D TV is how the 3D image changes as you change your viewing position. If you are looking at a still image in 2D and change your viewing angle by walking left to right in front of the TV, the image of the TV picture produced by the brain stays the same as you move. But when you do that in 3D the picture appears almost holographic because the brain continuously reworks the perspective geometry of the image as you change your viewing position. As a result, people sitting at different locations will see somewhat different perspective geometries of the same 3D image. The effect can grow to be quite large for images with significant depth. It sometimes seems as if you might be able to see additional things that are currently obscured by shifting your viewing position even more, but of course that never happens, you only see an increasingly shifted perspective view. It’s one more interesting facet of 3D TV viewing…

 

He's totally overplaying this.  This is absolutely not "almost holographic".  It's not "almost" anything.  You're still being fed strictly stereoscopic information from cameras with lenses either converging or parallel.  This does not change.  He knows this.  He qualifies this above with "but of course that never happens"---but he still regards it as an increasingly shifted perspective view.  It is not.  The "perspective" mis-information is because the display plane (the TV rectangle) itself is undergoing a perspective shift (as you look at it on angle the far side shrinks in height).  Your eye struggles to make sense of this, and cannot.  So as you move left to right in your living room you get your brain trying to figure out what's going on, but it's not the case that you're getting anything at all "almost holographic".


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1360 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, if you have settings that you'd like put together with others, I could use your help.

 

After a little running back and forth between my computer and PC, I've made this google docs spreadsheet of R550A settings.  It's complete with the full ranges acceptable for each setting so people can get a sense as to what numbers mean what.

 

Please don't enter in "max" if the max is 100.  Enter 100.  (etc.)  And spell out "auto" etc., entirely in lower case, to keep it clean, but I can fix this later.

 

Theoretically, anyone clicking on the above link can enter their settings.  I'd suggest people pick a column, and put their AVS name into the top, and then enter their settings.

 

Note: I'll make this available as an HTML in-line table in the first post soon.

 

Let me know how it works.  I'll be entering things as well.  Google docs has a good track record of nearly immediate saves, and having collaborations work very well.  We'll see if this applies to their spreadsheets too.  If not, then at worst, I'll shut off editing ability and make all the changes myself.  :(

 

PLEASE be mindful of other people's entries.  If there are mistakes in someone else's column, let me know: I'll be the one to fix it.  If disaster occurs, I can back the entries out (because google docs keeps track of changes).  If I have to, I'll close this to only particular people, but I think this will work as is.

 

Thanks guys!

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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1361 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 11:35 AM
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Is anybody else using the Darbee Darblet?
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post #1362 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Is anybody else using the Darbee Darblet?

 

I'd love to know more about it, that's for sure!  Does it work?

 

Does it really do more than the Picture and Sharpness settings of the TV do????


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1363 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 12:57 PM
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Is anybody else using the Darbee Darblet?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1399154/darbee-vision-darblet
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post #1364 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 02:35 PM
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I've had my Darbee for well over a year now. I bought it when I first read the review on ENGadget. Basically they said that they were very very apprehensive because of many past experiences with video processors. I believe they used the word stunned in relaying their first impression. Over and over again they praised the improvement in PQ on a large 110" screen. They referred to it as "like lifting a veil off the screen". So I bought one and hooked it up to my Sony 60A3000. I wasn't stunned but I was impressed a lot. considering I was using a screen half the size. When I hooked it up to my 70 Vizio I was equally impressed. Now using it on my 70A550A I find myself not wanting to be without it. Basically it uses different algorithms then the manufactures and if nothing else allows you to turn down the TV's sharpness settings. My understanding is that it was developed by some engineers that had a different idea about the algorithms now in use and thought they could build a better mouse trap. I think they have come out with two new versions after the one I bought. More expensive too. I think you can get it on Amazon now.
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post #1365 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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My earlier quote:
After a little running back and forth between my computer and PC, I've made this google docs spreadsheet of R550A settings.  It's complete with the full ranges acceptable for each setting so people can get a sense as to what numbers mean what.

 

Ok, 3 of you so far have added your settings.  :)  Awesome!

 

Someone (I haven't looked into who yet) put in a thoughtful column averagers/summary for the settings.

 

Nice idea, but I don't think it'll work in principal: the reason is that several of the settings require other settings to dramatically counteract them in non-linear ways.  This will result in the averaging (or count) of any one setting no longer making much sense.

 

I'll leave it in for now, and see how it shakes out.

 

Thanks everyone!


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1366 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 05:13 PM
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and now it's up to 4.

i added the aggregation column. not sure what you mean by "not work" but there's nothing to "work" other than a simple aggregation of data.

if you are saying that people might come to incorrect conclusions based on that information, well.... that is their error.
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post #1367 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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and now it's up to 4.

i added the aggregation column. not sure what you mean by "not work" but there's nothing to "work" other than a simple aggregation of data.

if you are saying that people might come to incorrect conclusions based on that information, well.... that is their error.

 

No federal case here, it's just that when you have multiple settings, it's valuable to see what people chose on average.  That's true, and a nifty idea.  However, when the individual settings cause other parts to react in non-linear ways, it's of dubious value.  The individual settings as an average don't mean anything.

 

For instance, say people were always lowering the Picture setting, except for one person who took care of it by warming (lowering) the color temperature which resulted in needing a slightly higher picture setting.  The average Picture setting was affected, but tells us nothing.  The count of color temperatures similarly tells us nothing because we cannot determine from the averages why it affected them.

 

No worries.  Doesn't hurt, so fine by me so far.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1368 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Radsean View Post

Thanks for that input. I've been using 15 sharpness.

I tried 15 sharpness, then lowered to 5, and now sticking with 2.

I see too many halo effects/exaggerated noise around the 5 mark & upwards... whereas 2 adds just a touch of emphasis to prevent the image from getting too soft.

The Darbee Darblet likely does a better job than Sony's default sharpness algorithm (reduced halos), but I'd be more interested at a $150 price point.
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post #1369 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 10:05 PM
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Does anyone know what panel the 70" version is using?
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post #1370 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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My earlier quote:
After a little running back and forth between my computer and PC, I've made this google docs spreadsheet of R550A settings.  It's complete with the full ranges acceptable for each setting so people can get a sense as to what numbers mean what.

 

Temporarily pulling edit ability off the chart.

 

It's starting to have intermittent issues.  Could be an edit in progress, but I can't be sure.  The summary equations applied to all the cells.  Then fixed.  Then a summary equation vanished (not hue).  Then came back.

 

I need to clean this up.  There was also a 0 instead of an Off and other minor things.

 

You can still access it, just not add anything to it.

 

I hope this chart is of help to folks.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #1371 of 4346 Old 06-26-2013, 10:41 PM
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wow, thanks so much for doing that!!!


I have a question for you guys.....i get a service free for being best buy premier silver and the free options given aren't many but i did see one of them is free TV CALIBRATION which they say they charge $250 normally and is done by a professional ISF-certified Geek Squad Installer.

my question is, is it worth letting them come and do it just to compare to the ones iv done with help here? or better not let them touch it as iv heard they will mess with setting the normal user doesnt have access to?

also, how many custom settings can we have?

thanks
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Does anyone know what panel the 70" version is using?

Probably a Sharp panel.
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Originally Posted by letsgetitstarted View Post

wow, thanks so much for doing that!!!


I have a question for you guys.....i get a service free for being best buy premier silver and the free options given aren't many but i did see one of them is free TV CALIBRATION which they say they charge $250 normally and is done by a professional ISF-certified Geek Squad Installer.

my question is, is it worth letting them come and do it just to compare to the ones iv done with help here? or better not let them touch it as iv heard they will mess with setting the normal user doesnt have access to?

also, how many custom settings can we have?

thanks

You can have one custom setting per input. As far as having Best Buy come in for a Calibration visit, it is a hit or miss proposition at best. Unfortunately the R550A does not have many of the adjustment controls that a "Calibrator" normally uses. Specifically there is no Greyscale adjustment, either 2 point or 10 point available that is used to correctly set the color of white at varying intensities. In addition there is no CMS (Color Management System) to specifically adjust the three Primary and three secondary colors. The good news is that the Sony R550 is remarkably accurate in both Greyscale and Color. There have been several members that have posted in this thread results they have obtained using meters and calibration software to confirm this. If it were me I would probably not invite the Best Buy folks in to mess with my set. You can tweak it your self using several different "calibration disks" both commercial and free.
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post #1374 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 10:00 AM
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What "actual", "verifiable", and "repeatable" tests are you talking about regarding 3D full HD information?  See below.



Then you didn't read what I wrote either.  I wasn't simply doing "resolution math".  And I'm talking ENTIRELY about how the brain interprets information.

I don't find those tests as verifiable.  Even conducting the at-home test fails.  Further when you dig into the details of the claims, he makes this claim about the 1080 lines of FPR information resulting from fusion:


That so far is correct (but needs clarification on "vertical information").  But in any case, he goes off the charts wrong here with his very next sentence:


That's just incorrect, and I don't know anyone else attempting that very claim, not even LG.  For as long as I've been following this, LG made multiple claims, almost certainly marketing driven.  Remember the "Passive allows you to watch 3D lying down" ?????   The current state of what comes out of them is that the delivery of 540+540=1080 was along the time axis, not some magical Left 540 + Right 540 fills in the gaps to 1080 3D.  It does not.  I remember a brief claim that the Left 540 and the Right 540 contained slightly different vertical information (only because the left view might have vertical extents of objects that are obscured from the right eye and thus it added together with more information than 540).  But that wasn't even displaymate's premise above: "the vertical information for the left and right eyes are in fact identical"<---that by itself establishes that you're getting 540.

 
Where the confusion comes in is this: Think in terms of strictly interlacing 2D.  If employed with line doubling, you're getting every a half frame as 540 double-high lines.  You then get a following half frame with the following 540.

But keep the 3D 1080i60 you get from your STB out of the equation for the moment, because it will be employing it's own time axis.

Now, go to the section where he discusses comparing the sharpness of FPR by turning on and off 3D.  He claims that it passes the test that there is no clarity loss.  I believe that he's getting two arguments confused: the sharpness of the 3D, vs. how much clarity you can see at standard viewing distances.  That last argument goes off the charts in these parts (in 2D).

Here's how you should do the test.  Put in Avatar, let it fire up.  Your TV should show it as 1080p24 (which it is).  Now look carefully at the intitial BD menu (play, scene select, etc).  Look at the "play".  Turn off the 3D.  It's now 2D but >poof<....it still sort of looks like it's equally clear.  BUT TAKE OFF YOUR GLASSES and you'll see the 2D "play" is phenomenally clear by comparison.  This is tested by me at precisely 12 feet eye to TV.  Now do the process again and look at the movement behind the menu in 3D.  Cool.  Now switch it to 2D (and take OFF the glasses!).  You'll see the 2D motion looking pretty damn clear but with not as striking an increase as it was when you tested the "play".  This is because of the inherent edge detection in your eye and the increase in effective resolution you get with movement.

Finally, he makes an assertion of 3D (either type) being "almost holographic".  Here's that particular quote:


He's totally overplaying this.  This is absolutely not "almost holographic".  It's not "almost" anything.  You're still being fed strictly stereoscopic information from cameras with lenses either converging or parallel.  This does not change.  He knows this.  He qualifies this above with "but of course that never happens"---but he still regards it as an increasingly shifted perspective view.  It is not.  The "perspective" mis-information is because the display plane (the TV rectangle) itself is undergoing a perspective shift (as you look at it on angle the far side shrinks in height).  Your eye struggles to make sense of this, and cannot.  So as you move left to right in your living room you get your brain trying to figure out what's going on, but it's not the case that you're getting anything at all "almost holographic".

This is as good a synopsis of what goes on with passive 3D as I've found anywhere. It very accurately depicts what goes on with my own passive set. I'm 8 feet back from a 47" and do see "scanlines" with 3D. It reminds me of what I used to see on a 57" crt rear projection set I had that would do native 480p when displaying progressive scan dvd.

The scanlines don't bother me as much as the ghosting and flicker that I experience with active 3D (ymmv) so I still prefer passive--the 3D effect is better even with half vertical (still get full 1920 side to side) resolution and it's much less fatiguing for me. I'd also note that several sources, including Consumer Reports, report loss of some vertical resolution in 3D with Panasonic active 3D plasmas.

Steve S.
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post #1375 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I'd love to know more about it, that's for sure!  Does it work?

Does it really do more than the Picture and Sharpness settings of the TV do????

I researched the crap outta this thing and like most things, there's countless opinions, albeit mostly positive for the Darbee. There does seem to be one universal conclusion - that it is definitely recommended for HD projector set-ups given the size and that the BIGGER the display the more you'll benefit from it. I read alot folks saying it wasn't much help with their 42 or 50 inchers.

I'll let ya know. I ordered one yesterday to go on my projector biggrin.gif (144inch)

Of course I'll try it on the Sony too so that my opinion can benefit this thread. (70inch)

And I'll even throw it on the plasma for comparison. (50inch)

Just waiting on shipping of the Darbee and the Sony now.
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post #1376 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 12:30 PM
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I think you'll really like it. Which model did you order? There are several different strength settings so I imagine you'll spend quite a bit of time deciding which works best for each of your displays. You are correct in that the larger the screen the more impact the Darbee will have. I think the 70" provides is a very nice sweet spot..I see an improvement in 2D as well as 3D. It's not earth shattering but my wife can easily see the difference also. It drove me nuts at first because there is such a variance in the quality of HD TV signals. With blu-ray it's best. At least you can send it back if the improvement doesn't meet your expectations.
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post #1377 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 12:39 PM
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Here's a tip for you in setting up your Darbee. I used the blu-ray of "The Hunger Games". I paused the movie during a close up of Donald Sutherland (big white beard). His big full white beard is perfect for adjusting the Darbee settings to your liking.
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post #1378 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, if you have settings that you'd like put together with others, I could use your help.

After a little running back and forth between my computer and PC, I've made this google docs spreadsheet of R550A settings.  It's complete with the full ranges acceptable for each setting so people can get a sense as to what numbers mean what.

Please don't enter in "max" if the max is 100.  Enter 100.  (etc.)  And spell out "auto" etc., entirely in lower case, to keep it clean, but I can fix this later.

Theoretically, anyone clicking on the above link can enter their settings.  I'd suggest people pick a column, and put their AVS name into the top, and then enter their settings.

Note: I'll make this available as an HTML in-line table in the first post soon.

Let me know how it works.  I'll be entering things as well.  Google docs has a good track record of nearly immediate saves, and having collaborations work very well.  We'll see if this applies to their spreadsheets too.  If not, then at worst, I'll shut off editing ability and make all the changes myself.  frown.gif

PLEASE be mindful of other people's entries.  If there are mistakes in someone else's column, let me know: I'll be the one to fix it.  If disaster occurs, I can back the entries out (because google docs keeps track of changes).  If I have to, I'll close this to only particular people, but I think this will work as is.

Thanks guys!

Absolutely amazing idea!!! Maybe edit the first post with this link also so people who don't read the whole thread can find it? Maybe you already did put it there? :-)

I have read through this entire thread in anticipation of my set arriving and I got the call from the delivery company that it will be here today. I haven't seen many people with the 50" model except for a couple who have complained of problems. Obviously people don't love to write on forums about great experiences nearly as much as they write about negative experiences so hopefully I don't have issues with mine.

That being said, can anyone speak to the warranty provided by Sony or another warranty provider like square trade perhaps?

My question is to how my warranty will be handled. I did not buy this TV myself, it was purchased but I won it in a raffle at work. If I have an issue, I don't want to go through whoever purchased it from my job, rather I would obviously like to handle it myself.

Will Sony honor the warranty for me seeing as I was not the one who purchased it? Can I purchase an extended warranty through another warranty provider? etc.

Thanks for all the great info on the TV guys. I'll try to post my thoughts later tonight... if I can drag myself away from it long enough! :-)
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post #1379 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Here's a tip for you in setting up your Darbee. I used the blu-ray of "The Hunger Games". I paused the movie during a close up of Donald Sutherland (big white beard). His big full white beard is perfect for adjusting the Darbee settings to your liking.

Thanks for the tip.

I ordered the Cobalt as I don't do 3D.
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post #1380 of 4346 Old 06-27-2013, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty3x3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, if you have settings that you'd like put together with others, I could use your help.

After a little running back and forth between my computer and PC, I've made this google docs spreadsheet of R550A settings.  It's complete with the full ranges acceptable for each setting so people can get a sense as to what numbers mean what.

Please don't enter in "max" if the max is 100.  Enter 100.  (etc.)  And spell out "auto" etc., entirely in lower case, to keep it clean, but I can fix this later.

Theoretically, anyone clicking on the above link can enter their settings.  I'd suggest people pick a column, and put their AVS name into the top, and then enter their settings.

Note: I'll make this available as an HTML in-line table in the first post soon.

Let me know how it works.  I'll be entering things as well.  Google docs has a good track record of nearly immediate saves, and having collaborations work very well.  We'll see if this applies to their spreadsheets too.  If not, then at worst, I'll shut off editing ability and make all the changes myself.  frown.gif

PLEASE be mindful of other people's entries.  If there are mistakes in someone else's column, let me know: I'll be the one to fix it.  If disaster occurs, I can back the entries out (because google docs keeps track of changes).  If I have to, I'll close this to only particular people, but I think this will work as is.

Thanks guys!

Absolutely amazing idea!!! Maybe edit the first post with this link also so people who don't read the whole thread can find it? Maybe you already did put it there? :-)

 

Thanks!  And yes, that was the plan.  :)


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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