Is the labeling correct? "Samsung mislabeling HDMI Black Level setting "Normal" and "Low", backwards" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-04-2013, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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-continued in Display Calibration forum-


Please bare with me as I am a beginner in this area of TV calibration and learning what all the options actually do to a TV's picture quality and perfomance. smile.gif

About a week ago I picked up a Samsung UN46ES7500 and have used AVSHD 709 to do basic calibrating on all three HDMI sources.
All looks fine to me as far as my eyes can tell. When it comes to setting HDMI Black Level - "Normal" or "Low" to finalize calibration of my HTPC (HDMI1/DVI - DVI Devices mode) I am confused on which option setting is correct to use.

From reading other posts I am understanding that "Normal" is RGB 0-255 and "Low" is YcbCr 16-235.
When viewing my Desktop and movies while toggling between Normal and Low - I feel that Low gives me a much better picture quality overall. The blacks are deep blacks with grey shades of shadowing detail, I don't think I notice black crushing. Where as Normal gives the entire picture a grey overlay washed out appearance to every color not only shades of black.

The Nvidia GTX 580 Control Panel can be set to output either RGB or Ycbcr444. It is set to RGB at the moment and the HDMI Black Level setting in the TV menu is now grayed out and the picture quality looks good like it does when I used to be able to set it into "Low". If I set the Nvidia Control Panel to output Ycbcr444, then the HDMI Black Level setting is no longer grayed out and I can pick between Normal and Low again. While Low still looking better to my eyes than when in Normal (grey and washed out).

So the standard is (correct me if I'm wrong):
RGB 0-255 color space (Full PC levels)
Ycbcr 16-235 color space (Limited)

Samsung LCD TV's HDMI Black Level:
"Normal" = RGB 0-255 ??
"Low" = Ycbcr 16-235 ??

Ok, now as for what the Subject line is all about.
I have come across a few posts in similar threads that mention that years ago, Samsung (made a misake) mislabeled the HDMI Black Level choices (Normal and Low) in reverse/backwards and haven't corrected the issue, even though their QA Department requested for Samsung to fix the labeling. (??) I've googled about this and could not find any official word from Samsung. Maybe Samsung got lost wording the labels in translation by converting what it means in Korean over to English. Also, back then Manufacturer's were getting mixed up and confused when HDMI constantly changing/adding new technologies and standards with their HDMI revisions.

If it were backwards labeling then it would be like this:
"Normal" = Ycbcr 16-235 ??
"Low" = RGB 0-255 ??

So my main question is, has ANYONE heard about this "Samsung HDMI Black Level Mislabeling"? Anyone know if it has been fixed in their TV's?

Appreciate your thoughts and information about the subject. smile.gif

BTW just received the Disney WOW Calibration DVD and can't wait to check it out! Oh and the TV is pretty awesome too!

-continued in Display Calibration forum-
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-05-2013, 04:52 AM
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16 - 235 limited is video levels. When having a TV with such option and a blu-ray player with such option, in general both will be set to limited. Limited is for TV use, Full is for computer use.

According Doug Blackburn, who is an expert, Samsung started labeling backwards years ago. I do not know if it is reversed.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373974/output-range-and-samsung-black-level



There is a calibration Forum, you might want to [post over there
http://www.avsforum.com/f/139/display-calibration
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post #3 of 9 Old 03-06-2013, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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That is where I read about the mislabeling.

I wonder if it is fixed or not. "low" looks 2x better than "normal" to me.

HTPC / Nvidia GTX 580 [RGB 0-255] > DVI / HDMI Out > HDMI / DVI In ["Low"]

Regards

Calibration: Disney WOW and Cnet and AVS HD 709
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post #4 of 9 Old 03-06-2013, 02:56 PM
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I have a similar quandary....

With Apple TV setup... I experimented with different HDMI settings and found a few interesting things.

When set to Auto the TV greys out HDMI level and locks it at normal.... High does the same thing but low sets it to low but allows you to switch it normal on the TV itself which I found provides the best overall black levels and detail.

Normal definitely does wash out the picture substantially.
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post #5 of 9 Old 03-06-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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-continued in Display Calibration forum-
Quote:
Originally Posted by digimat View Post

I have a similar quandary....

With Apple TV setup... I experimented with different HDMI settings and found a few interesting things.

When set to Auto the TV greys out HDMI level and locks it at normal.... High does the same thing but low sets it to low but allows you to switch it normal on the TV itself which I found provides the best overall black levels and detail.

Normal definitely does wash out the picture substantially.

Hmm Interesting. I have no experience with Apple TV. I agree that in my case "Normal" makes the entire screen look grayed out and over washed and "Low" looks better with more detail.

So your Apple TV level options are: ??

Auto [Normal] (grayed out - TV side)
Low (Apple TV side)
High (Apple TV side) ??

I wonder what "High" is all about.
Edit: Oh okay then "High" is probably the same as "Normal" then.

If I switch my graphics card ouput to yCbCr444 then my TV grays out HDMI Black Level: Normal (The picture quality is not washed out). If I switch my graphics card to RGB, my TV allows the options of Normal or Low to become selected (again Normal (washed out) and Low (better PQ). Which I found really odd considering that a lot of people are saying that the Source and TV black level settings should match.

Appreciate you sharing that info. now I know I'm not alone in this! smile.gif

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post #6 of 9 Old 03-07-2013, 08:58 AM
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This leads me to believe that the level is being set on both source and the TV and that the washed out picture is a result of both devices being set to "normal" or "high". I don't have any experience with HTPC setup but it sounds like you're experiencing the same thing. Also setting Low on ATV and Low on the TV makes the picture way too dark and detail is lost. Setting it to normal is ideal.
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post #7 of 9 Old 03-07-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digimat View Post

This leads me to believe that the level is being set on both source and the TV and that the washed out picture is a result of both devices being set to "normal" or "high". I don't have any experience with HTPC setup but it sounds like you're experiencing the same thing. Also setting Low on ATV and Low on the TV makes the picture way too dark and detail is lost. Setting it to normal is ideal.

When you mentioned setting ATV and TV to both Low and Low makes the picture way too dark and detail is lost. Do you mean the overall appearance of the picture has a very slight gray tint?

I get the slight gray tint, loss of reference level blacks (16), loss of reference level whites (235) and loss of super level whites (255) when setting HTPC to RGB (Full / "Normal" / "High") and TV to "Normal".

I regain what was lost when HTPC is in RGB mode and TV is set to Low.

So if we both are having the same experiences then that tells me that maybe Samsung fixed the mislabeling and or their attributes of Normal and Low under HDMI Black Level settings in the Menu.

I would like more AVS Members to confirm this if possible.
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post #8 of 9 Old 03-07-2013, 12:33 PM
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No grey tint.... its like it's set to a more extreme black level then it should be. Setting ATV to Low and the TV to normal seems provide the best balance between the two.
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post #9 of 9 Old 03-08-2013, 03:51 AM
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HTPC colours washed out unsharp for AMD APU Nvidia Hdmi 1.3 1.4 1.4a output Mini ITX or whatever

For colours to be accurate you have to set
1. Hdmi input of tv label to pc
2. Choose tv colour spacing bt. 709
3. set gamma on tv at maximum ,at least 2.35 for THX certification
4. Use YCbCr 4:4:4 on hdmi out
5. Calibrate all

Also madAVR settings has advanced calibration feature for TV's but dont touch colour profiles use BT 709
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