Official Samsung UNxxF8000 Owners Thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 10:39 AM
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Hmm, not very encouraging Buzz. So in the end, it looks like the MLL you'll deal with is around .01. A bit disappointing, but it is what it is.
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post #152 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

For the owners thread only I'll be posting the following as I get to them:

1. Black and white levels and the effects on them selecting various menu options
2. Flashlighting and screen uniformity (measured)
3. Motion
4. Calibration differences if any among Custom, Cal Day, & Cal Night. The latter two will be enabled in the service menu
5. 2D and 3D calibration reports
6. External 3D LUT calibration with LightSpace professional software and the eeColor Box as the LUT container/processor

I leave Film Mode in Auto2. Both 24 & 60p look good to me although I'm not very sensitive to SOE.

For motion processing, as good a test as any is the girl on the swing with the vertical stripes on her blouse as shown by David Mackensie at last years VE Shootout. That Blu-Ray disc is named FPD Benchmark Software. It's made in Japan and I don't think it's for sale but I'm unsure of this. I have it, along with other fairly rare calibration discs like Super HiViCast Check & Adjustment and Qtec Hi-Definition Reference Disc. Color girl #2 on the Qtec disc is my number one flesh tone reference. (Thanks, Ted)

The gal in the striped blouse ought to be included with all calibration discs as motion problems are very easy to see.

The F8000 needs Auto Motion Plus > Blur Reduction 10. Judder reduction in my opinion can be anywhere from 0 to 5. I didn't see much difference. LED Clear Motion was left Off.

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post #153 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Hmm, not very encouraging Buzz. So in the end, it looks like the MLL you'll deal with is around .01. A bit disappointing, but it is what it is.

No, Ken. You wouldn't like it. I'd wait and see what the ZT60 has to offer. Like the F8500, it might break some new ground.

On the other hand....

First of all, I'm a plasma guy with a PN_D8000 and a VT50. However, the F8000, despite lacking <.002 MLL, looks terrific in a near black room with max luminance set at 32 FtL. Yes I see the black, but nobody else does. In a brighter room, LED pop equals Plasma color and black level hardly matters. With two lamps on, and watching a 4:3 advertisment with black side bars, I have to get right up to the display before I can tell the difference between the screen and the bezel.

Plus - no IR and no buzzing.......

Neither do either of my plasmas but let's not go there. biggrin.gif

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post #154 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 11:24 AM
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Undeniable attractions of LED, you don't have to convince me. As we know, each tech has its pros & cons. smile.gif

Let me ask you this, with the lights out, in a nearly dark room, how do the black levels look to the naked eye. How obvious is the black to bezel transition?

Hmm, 'black to bezel transition'...a new measurement for you calibrators? biggrin.gif
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post #155 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Undeniable attractions of LED, you don't have to convince me. As we know, each tech has its pros & cons. smile.gif

Let me ask you this, with the lights out, in a nearly dark room, how do the black levels look to the naked eye. How obvious is the black to bezel transition?

Hmm, 'black to bezel transition'...a new measurement for you calibrators? biggrin.gif

Ken, with the 65HX950, in a nearly dark room, the blacks are so black that they completely blend into the edge of the gorilla glass which gives it a floating "in air" illusion to it. Quite amazing to see.
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post #156 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 11:43 AM
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Hello everyone,

I just bough a UN55F8000 but it looks very small in my living room. I am thinking of returning it and wait for the 65in one, as the 75in will be probably extremely expensive.
Do you have any guess when the 65in will be available? What was the situation with the ES8000 last year?
Also, my other option is to just exchange my 55F8000 with a 65ES8000. Black bars on top and bottom are amazing on the F8000 though, it feels like an OLED.
Thanks in advance.
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post #157 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmay91472 View Post

Ken, with the 65HX950, in a nearly dark room, the blacks are so black that they completely blend into the edge of the gorilla glass which gives it a floating "in air" illusion to it. Quite amazing to see.

Oh I know cmay, I know. It's truly a sight to behold. I briefly had a 929 with that same black level (I'm assuming there were no improvements to that end on the 950?). The only reason I returned it was for significant banding. I probably got a bad panel since my buddy got the same unit and his was far better than mine...and this was a 55"! It was at that point I got the Elite.
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post #158 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by xfibre View Post

Hello everyone,

I just bough a UN55F8000 but it looks very small in my living room. I am thinking of returning it and wait for the 65in one, as the 75in will be probably extremely expensive.
Do you have any guess when the 65in will be available? What was the situation with the ES8000 last year?
Also, my other option is to just exchange my 55F8000 with a 65ES8000. Black bars on top and bottom are amazing on the F8000 though, it feels like an OLED.
Thanks in advance.

Stay away from the 65ES8000, especially after seeing how nice the 55F8000 is. If you must go bigger, wait for the 60F8000 or 65F8000 which should be around end of April beginning of May or sooner. 65F8000 may or may not have significant banding which is why I'm also recommending the 60F8000 as it had no visible banding issues with the 60ES8000 model.

75F8000 price will probably be around $8000.
65F8000 price will be between $3500 and $4300. Have been told both prices from different vendors so until it is ready to ship we won't know for sure.

Can't remember the price on the 60F8000 though. Was it like $3,000? I just remember seeing that it was only a few hundred more than the 55 and thought who would not opt for the larger one if both were in stock side by side.

Just do a search on 65ES8000 vertical banding and you'll read everything you need to know to convince yourself that that would be an unwise decision. wink.gif
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post #159 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Let me ask you this, with the lights out, in a nearly dark room, how do the black levels look to the naked eye. How obvious is the black to bezel transition?

Good question and the answer is favorable for the F8000. I ran a 3D LUT yesterday for night viewing. I hooked up my pattern generator and passed the signal through the LUT. I looked at a checkerboard pattern both with the White luminance at 100% and also at 50%. At 50% I can barely make out the bezel along the black squares. At 100% I can't see it at all. Mind you that this 1/4" bezel is more difficult to see in all cases relative to older model TVs with 1+" bezels.

By the end of the weekend I'll have LUTs in the Box for Day and 3D modes and I'll take another look at this....

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post #160 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 01:19 PM
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Ken, HX929/HX950: same PQ, same number of dimming zones wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross 
I briefly had a 929 with that same black level (I'm assuming there were no improvements to that end on the 950?).


Black level: The HX950 excelled at creating a deep shade of black. In very dark scenes from "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part 2," like the massing of Voldemort's army atop the hillside or the close-up of his wand hand in chapter 12, its letterbox bars and other black and near-black areas looked slightly deeper than on the Panasonic VT50 and the Sony HX850, and significantly deeper than on the Vizio and Samsung. Black levels appeared basically identical to those of the HX929; any black-level difference between the two full-array local dimming Sonys was extremely difficult to discern.

The comparison with the Elite was more interesting. In this and other scenes from "Harry Potter," both Sonys actually looked slightly darker in their letterbox bars than the Elite. In my original review of the Elite I said it delivered deeper blacks than the HX929, but this time around, on this material, the Sonys showed the slightest edge. I can't really explain the discrepancy, but it's worth noting that the difference would be impossible to discern beyond a side-by-side dark-room comparison, and that all three produced black levels darker than what my highly sensitive light meter is specced to reliably measure.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/sony-xbr-55hx950/4505-6482_7-35431205-2.html
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post #161 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post



Good question and the answer is favorable for the F8000. I ran a 3D LUT yesterday for night viewing. I hooked up my pattern generator and passed the signal through the LUT. I looked at a checkerboard pattern both with the White luminance at 100% and also at 50%. At 50% I can barely make out the bezel along the black squares. At 100% I can't see it at all. Mind you that this 1/4" bezel is more difficult to see in all cases relative to older model TVs with 1+" bezels.

By the end of the weekend I'll have LUTs in the Box for Day and 3D modes and I'll take another look at this....

So, here we go again, a difference between measured values and perceived PQ. I get so much flack from a few on AVS for this dreaded notion that measurements don't always tell the whole story.

So before I jump the gun or am accused of misinterpreting what you're saying, Buzz, the perceived 'eyeball' black levels are very good to excellent? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when someone tells me in a dark room they can barely make out the bezel and/or can't see it at all, well, that sounds like pretty damn good 'eyeball black levels'. smile.gif
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post #162 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Ken, HX929/HX950: same PQ, same number of dimming zones wink.gif
Black level: The HX950 excelled at creating a deep shade of black. In very dark scenes from "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part 2," like the massing of Voldemort's army atop the hillside or the close-up of his wand hand in chapter 12, its letterbox bars and other black and near-black areas looked slightly deeper than on the Panasonic VT50 and the Sony HX850, and significantly deeper than on the Vizio and Samsung. Black levels appeared basically identical to those of the HX929; any black-level difference between the two full-array local dimming Sonys was extremely difficult to discern.

The comparison with the Elite was more interesting. In this and other scenes from "Harry Potter," both Sonys actually looked slightly darker in their letterbox bars than the Elite. In my original review of the Elite I said it delivered deeper blacks than the HX929, but this time around, on this material, the Sonys showed the slightest edge. I can't really explain the discrepancy, but it's worth noting that the difference would be impossible to discern beyond a side-by-side dark-room comparison, and that all three produced black levels darker than what my highly sensitive light meter is specced to reliably measure.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/sony-xbr-55hx950/4505-6482_7-35431205-2.html

Thanks 8mile13, I recall that review now.

That is an odd disparity he pointed out in his two tests. However, black levels equaling or exceeding that of the Elite, is superb in my book and frankly hard to find in any plasma. As I said in the Sony thread, it amazes me this display doesn't get more respect. I can understand that happening with diehard plasma fans. but I'll be honest, I find some of them not overly objective. Having had both, I see the pluses & minuses.

Aside from a poor viewing angle (if that's a problem for some) and some minor banding not visible to all, and to those that can see it, a very small percentage of the time, there aren't too many deficits I see with this panel.
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post #163 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So, here we go again, a difference between measured values and perceived PQ. I get so much flack from a few on AVS for this dreaded notion that measurements don't always tell the whole story.

So before I jump the gun or am accused of misinterpreting what you're saying, Buzz, the perceived 'eyeball' black levels are very good to excellent? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when someone tells me in a dark room they can barely make out the bezel and/or can't see it at all, well, that sounds like pretty damn good 'eyeball black levels'. smile.gif

If they turn out the lights at VE this weekend take a look. I'll be forever a black level freak and if you don't see a difference between the F8000 and the new plasmas I want to know about it.

I've been staring at black so much this week my eyes are probably beginning to play tricks on me so a trip to Hooters is in order to stare at orange for awhile.

Later - buzz

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post #164 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 04:35 PM
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Good thing Buzz has no calibrations scheduled after Hooters. wink.gif

I'll take a look tomorrow Buzz. I'm bringing a blanket to serve as a tent. Robert will think I'm crazy, but hell, he already knows that. biggrin.gif
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post #165 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 05:36 PM
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Does anybody have any info on the difference in picture quality and browser response between the ES8000 and the F8000 There are still ES's available and some at crazy prices. I'm wondering if there is that big a difference. Although, I do remember reading a couple of really negative reviews of the ES8000. Thanks for any help - I expect to do the deed within the next 2 weeks and replacing a 14 year Toshiba 55" rear projector, which, hopefully will be picked up by Salvation Army (still works perfectly).
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post #166 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

No. I'll have to do that.

A little F8000 3D-LUT data from today. This display calibrates very well.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461363/ee-colorbox-lightspace-and-3d-lut-calibration/60#post_23133321

buzz could you share your 3D setting please??

also do you have setting for gaming??
because i changed the source to PC. it doesnt look good at all. plus alot of the setting are disable
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post #167 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I'd really like to hear more about the lag in game mode vs PC mode. PC mode leaves very few options for tweaking the picture, unlike game mode, which is much more customizable. I don't understand what the point of game mode is if it isn't effective at reducing lag. Last year my ES7500 was great in game mode - there was a very noticeable difference in lag vs regular mode. I never needed to use PC mode because game mode worked well.


+1
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post #168 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 07:16 PM
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buzz could you share your 3D setting please??

also do you have setting for gaming??
because i changed the source to PC. it doesnt look good at all. plus alot of the setting are disable

The 3D LUT has nothing to do with 3D video. It is a Cube LUT external calibration. We measure these points....



...and mathematically create a 65x65x65 Look Up Table that is loaded into an external color processor and this is where the calibrated picture originates before being sent to the display. It's totally different than using the TV internal controls. In fact, we turn them off as much as possible as they are not needed. I use LightSpace professional software for display characterization and LUT production and an eeColor Processor for LUT holding and processing. The resulting picture is far more accurate than the TV itself is capable of.

Before the end of the weekend I'll post both 2D and 3D settings but because of loose requirements for electronic components, calibration settings may or may not translate from one display to another. You'll be able to plug them in and take a look but it's a 50/50 chance of picture improvement. Because of this I normally wouldn't post settings, but have made it a habit to do so in the past as well as now with displays that I own personally.

I'm not much of a gamer so I may or may not get around to that aspect - depends on how much time I have.

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post #169 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Good thing Buzz has no calibrations scheduled after Hooters. wink.gif

I'll take a look tomorrow Buzz. I'm bringing a blanket to serve as a tent. Robert will think I'm crazy, but hell, he already knows that. biggrin.gif

I'm very interested to read your findings. That other thread, F8000 2013 Flagship Models, is so full of crap I can barely look at it. We'll make an effort to keep the Owners thread devoid of speculation. And yeah, Ken, you're "allowed" to post here even if you don't own one..... cool.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif

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post #170 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The 3D LUT has nothing to do with 3D video. It is a Cube LUT external calibration. We measure these points....

...and mathematically create a 65x65x65 Look Up Table that is loaded into an external color processor and this is where the calibrated picture originates before being sent to the display. It's totally different than using the TV internal controls. In fact, we turn them off as much as possible as they are not needed. I use LightSpace professional software for display characterization and LUT production and an eeColor Processor for LUT holding and processing. The resulting picture is far more accurate than the TV itself is capable of.

Before the end of the weekend I'll post both 2D and 3D settings but because of loose requirements for electronic components, calibration settings may or may not translate from one display to another. You'll be able to plug them in and take a look but it's a 50/50 chance of picture improvement. Because of this I normally wouldn't post settings, but have made it a habit to do so in the past as well as now with displays that I own personally.

Very cool!
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post #171 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 07:49 PM
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I'm very interested to read your findings.

Should be fun.
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That other thread, F8000 2013 Flagship Models, is so full of crap I can barely look at it. We'll make an effort to keep the Owners thread devoid of speculation.

I hear ya.
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And yeah, Ken, you're "allowed" to post here even if you don't own one..... cool.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif

OOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #172 of 7747 Old 03-28-2013, 09:40 PM
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buzz could you share your 3D setting please??

also do you have setting for gaming??
because i changed the source to PC. it doesnt look good at all. plus alot of the setting are disable

This is a big concern for me. As you said, PC mode disables almost all image adjustments, leaving an image that may very well not be to your liking. Game mode allows for much better control, but I hear people already saying game mode is not effective this year. I'm rather shocked by that, because game mode was very effective last year at reducing lag, and I never needed to engage PC mode. And with the faster processor this year, I thought for sure game mode would improve if anything, not get worse.
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post #173 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 12:33 AM
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I haven't played something heavily competitive and twitch-based like Call of Duty multiplayer yet, but I have been playing some role-playing games and the occasional single-player shooter. It seemed okay. I didn't have any problems moving around or dispatching foes. I may have been able to tell it wasn't quite as quick, though that may have been because I was actively thinking about input lag. The eyes will see faults if it looks for them. Regardless, I had no trouble playing the games I tested and whatever input lag was there, I seem to have adjusted to.
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post #174 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 11:10 AM
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I haven't played something heavily competitive and twitch-based like Call of Duty multiplayer yet, but I have been playing some role-playing games and the occasional single-player shooter. It seemed okay. I didn't have any problems moving around or dispatching foes. I may have been able to tell it wasn't quite as quick, though that may have been because I was actively thinking about input lag. The eyes will see faults if it looks for them. Regardless, I had no trouble playing the games I tested and whatever input lag was there, I seem to have adjusted to.

Is this in PC mode or game mode? Last year, first person shooters were what I consider to be unplayable in normal viewing mode, but in game mode there was a very noticeable improvement in lag, which made first person shooters easily playable. In fact even simple space-invaders type games were unplayable in normal mode last year - just too much lag to accurately target anything in motion. But game mode worked wonders. I'd really love to hear how much of a difference there is between normal mode and game mode, and between game mode and pc mode.
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post #175 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 12:30 PM
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I figured out how to change the labels:

1. Press Source
2. Move the cursor to the source you change
3. Slide up on the remote pad to be able to select the tools menu.
4. Select Edit Name

grhopper,

Been playing around in the menu and found another way to name the inputs.

Menu> System> Device Manger> Universal Remote Setup> Start

From here you can name each input to what ever you desire.
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post #176 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 12:57 PM
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For you non calibrators here's an initial setup that won't get you into trouble:

Turn everything off that has an Auto function except Color Space

Buzz,

During your F8000 calibration, what difference...good or bad having Cinema Black enable / disable?
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post #177 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 01:29 PM
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Buzz,

During your F8000 calibration, what difference...good or bad having Cinema Black enable / disable?

Quite frankly I have found no difference visually or measurably. I've looked at sidebars, measured them, tried to see if that very small amount of glow on the inside of the bars from the edge lighting LEDs gets dimmer or brighter, etc. and I've come up empty handed. If you have a specific setup you'd like me to try I'll be happy to do it.

Buzz
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post #178 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

For the owners thread only I'll be posting the following as I get to them:

1. Black and white levels and the effects on them selecting various menu options
2. Flashlighting and screen uniformity (measured)
3. Motion
4. Calibration differences if any among Custom, Cal Day, & Cal Night. The latter two will be enabled in the service menu
5. 2D and 3D calibration reports
6. External 3D LUT calibration with LightSpace professional software and the eeColor Box as the LUT container/processor

Everything seems on the up and up in the Movie Mode.

Service Menu enabled Cal-Day and Cal-Night modes have one problem so far that I have found. Calibration requires either full screen "field" patterns or plasma type APL window patterns. Do not use standard window patterns on black backgrounds as the results will be very inaccurate.

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post #179 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

For the owners thread only I'll be posting the following as I get to them:

1. Black and white levels and the effects on them selecting various menu options
2. Flashlighting and screen uniformity (measured)
3. Motion
4. Calibration differences if any among Custom, Cal Day, & Cal Night. The latter two will be enabled in the service menu
5. 2D and 3D calibration reports
6. External 3D LUT calibration with LightSpace professional software and the eeColor Box as the LUT container/processor

Caveat: Settings don't transfer well from one display to another....

...but it seems like many like to try anyway so here are Day and Night calibration settings.

First of all, I enabled Cal-Day and Night in the Service menu. If this interests you ask and I'll provide a mini tutorial.

Night Calibration - 32.1 Foot Lamberts max light output

Turn off everything that says Auto to Off Except Film Auto2 in Picture Options

Movie Mode
Backlight 7
Contrast 90
Brightness 45
Sharpness 0
Color 50
Tint 50/50
Picture Size - Screen Fit

Advanced Mode - off, off 0, and off
Color Space - Custom
R R44 G0 B4
G 15 52 0
B 0 8 45
Y 54 53 0
C 10 50 51
M 43 7 43

White Balance 23 23 25 16 25 27

10p White Balance
1 0 -1 -3
2 1 0 -1
3 2 2 0
4 1 2 1
5 2 2 0
6 0 0 0
7 0 0 0
8 -2 -2 -2
9 0 0 0
10 0 0 0

Gamma -1

Picture Options
Color Temp Warm2
Dig Clean View - off
Mpeg - off
Film - Auto 2
Auto Motion Plus - Custom - Blur 10 - Judder 5 - LED Clear Motion Off
Smart LED Off
Cinema Black Off

Apply Picture Source - Current Source


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post #180 of 7747 Old 03-29-2013, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

For the owners thread only I'll be posting the following as I get to them:

1. Black and white levels and the effects on them selecting various menu options
2. Flashlighting and screen uniformity (measured)
3. Motion
4. Calibration differences if any among Custom, Cal Day, & Cal Night. The latter two will be enabled in the service menu
5. 2D and 3D calibration reports
6. External 3D LUT calibration with LightSpace professional software and the eeColor Box as the LUT container/processor

Day Calibration 51.5 Foot Lamberts Max Light Output

I used Cal-Day - The F8000 cross posts the CMS and the 10p White Balance so only the 2 point White Balance is new for the meter required settings

Backlight 12
Contrast 90
Brightness 46
Sharp 0
Color 50
Tint 50/50

White Balance 24 26 26 16 25 27

Gamma 0

Everything else is the same.


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