Official Samsung UNxxF8000 Owners Thread - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 06:03 PM
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Here are the features of the new update according to Samsung's download page.

(Firmware) (ver.1105.2)

This firmware is for TV Model(s): LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000

This firmware update will improve the following:

- Solves Network Connection issue with Wireless router.

- Solves Brightness Popping issue.

- Improves picture quality.

- Supports more MSO in OnTV feature.

- Enhances Voice Recognition feature.
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post #1892 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi29 View Post

Hi Guy`s ,

I got my new "free" remote today , and just like "tcass35" , my STB functions don`t work frown.gif

They work fine with the remote that came with the F8000 , without using the blaster ! , O__well , other than that it is a good remote !

AGuy01,

I have been play some PS3 games , I see what you guy`s are talking about , if I aim and shoot I miss eek.gif

That must be the same lag happening when I play Grid 2 , the cars are really lose , must be the lag... damn frown.gif

AG , maybe you can help me out :

For the past few days , my PS3 keeps disconnecting from my network confused.gif , any ideas ?
I can still download but when I play a game it keep bouncing me of and the automatically reconnects , more annoying than anything else.
Also , I will have it set to "auto sign in" and very time it disconnects I have to manually sign in again , just does not make any sense.

Thanks for your help in advance biggrin.gif

Later smile.gif

Gary 

Welcome to the club of disappointed gamers! Switching to PC Mode mostly keeps things smooth, but I don't like playing in that with games that have darker content. It unfortunately disables Smart LED, which keeps the blacks nice and consistent. It's just so strange because last year's model had 31ms of input lag in Game Mode. That's a fantastic number! The F8000's Game Mode is 81ms. PC is around 50. I'm actually doing research into a second, more affordable HDTV for gaming now. I'm hoping for decent sales this NFL or Black Friday season before the next-generation consoles release. I've got my eye on a Vizio M-series set or Sony's W802A if that drops in price.

As far as your PS3, I may not be much help. I assume you're connected via wireless? If so, I would try a wired connection and see if that helps. The problem could be your network or router and not the PS3 system itself.
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post #1893 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

Settings like Samsung's Auto Motion Plus or Sony's Motionflow are responsible for higher motion resolutions. PC and Game Mode unfortunately disable Auto Motion Plus. I know Sony's W802A allows you to use the Impulse Motionflow setting when in Game Mode, but that causes distracting flicker. Those motion settings also have a tendency to increase input lag. I would love to find a good gaming set that allows motion smoothing without increasing input lag too much, though that search isn't going well.

Yeah, I think cnet's review is just unclear by claiming the high motion resolution without dejudder (but must be still using AMP deblur, which does more subtle processing).

Motion processing fundamentally requires several frames to analyze, so it's never going to be ideal for gaming. But even reasonable Samsung displays like the F7100 already waste 2-3 frames worth of time even in game mode... So maybe interpolation in games would be reasonable if the rest of the path is optimized better. It's really jaw dropping how beautiful PS3 games look running at fake 240fps! But even ignoring the lag it introduces a lot of artifacts. Maybe PS4 will deliver universal 60fps at least. smile.gif

Btw, Sony's MotionFlow Impulse does look really great for games; actually less flickery than I expected, but wayyy too dim. One interesting thing is that you can see "double images" very clearly in games that run 30fps because it strobes at 60fps, I guess. Makes me wonder how similar this looks to a Plasma.
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post #1894 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rurifan View Post

Yeah, I think cnet's review is just unclear by claiming the high motion resolution without dejudder (but must be still using AMP deblur, which does more subtle processing).

Motion processing fundamentally requires several frames to analyze, so it's never going to be ideal for gaming. But even reasonable Samsung displays like the F7100 already waste 2-3 frames worth of time even in game mode... So maybe interpolation in games would be reasonable if the rest of the path is optimized better. It's really jaw dropping how beautiful PS3 games look running at fake 240fps! But even ignoring the lag it introduces a lot of artifacts. Maybe PS4 will deliver universal 60fps at least. smile.gif

Btw, Sony's MotionFlow Impulse does look really great for games; actually less flickery than I expected, but wayyy too dim. One interesting thing is that you can see "double images" very clearly in games that run 30fps because it strobes at 60fps, I guess. Makes me wonder how similar this looks to a Plasma.


Is there no way to compensate for the Impulse setting's dimness?

When I had my Sony HX850, I actually played Tomb Raider (PC) and Ni No Kuni with Motionflow Clear/Standard/Smooth enabled. It was GORGEOUS. Everything was so clear! And Sony's implementation didn't introduce visual artifacts. There was extra input lag, but it wasn't too hard to compensate in Tomb Raider. The 2013 Vizio M-series allows for motion smoothing to be used in Game Mode, so I'm asking questions about how that feels in its thread.

As far as 30FPS gaming with higher refresh rates, that's what's been pushing me away from buying a plasma. A 600Hz refresh rate will make those double images very apparent. I'm not expecting all next-generation games to be 60FPS, either. If developers want to push out better visuals - higher resolution textures, more objects on the screen, etc. - then a common tactic is to accept a lower framerate. As these consoles start to age, I can definitely see that becoming common practice. This outgoing generation has done just that.
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post #1895 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

Here you go, jedi:


That Amazon button is ridiculous. Why isn't that the p-size button instead? The D-series remotes had a p-size button that allows switching aspect ratios with a single button press instead of drilling through menus. Otherwise these remotes are pretty nice. Oh the illumination was pretty poor on previous models - probably the same here. The polished metal one I bought a while back has far better lighting.

Actually - wait a minute - where's the 3D button? Are you kidding me? Am I missing it? Please tell me I'm missing it. Because this is a 3D tv and previous remotes like this had a 3D button. No 3D button makes this remote worthless since it's a 3D tv and I use the 3D button often for switching into 3D mode for my side-by-side files which the tv doesn't automatically detect.

So we get an Amazon and Netflix button (both worthless) and yet no 3D button or picture-size button. Nice.
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post #1896 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rurifan View Post

Can any owners comment about the "motion resolution" of the F8000 with AMP Dejudder *off*? CNET's review says that the native motion resolution is 1200(!), which blows away every other LCD. I don't understand how this is possible. Does anybody have an explanation for this amazing feat?

I currently have a 55F7100 and am extremely dissastisfied with motion -- I see major edge flickering in 1080p24 content, and even low frame rate video games. Does the impressive motion resolution of the F8000 eliminate this effect?

What about "PC Mode" (for gaming), does it retain the lofty motion resolution?

I had asked about that many pages ago and never heard anything more on it. I would like to know more about how the motion resolution works also, and how it works between 2D and 3D, and also how AMP factors in.

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post #1897 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PorcTree View Post

Here are the features of the new update according to Samsung's download page.

(Firmware) (ver.1105.2)

This firmware is for TV Model(s): LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000

This firmware update will improve the following:

- Solves Network Connection issue with Wireless router.

- Solves Brightness Popping issue.

- Improves picture quality.

- Supports more MSO in OnTV feature.

- Enhances Voice Recognition feature.

More bull from Samsung!

Here's the notes from the previous update :

"This firmware is for TV Model(s): LED F7450/F7500/F7550/F8000
The version is 1104.3
This firmware update will improve the following:

- Solves Network Connection issue with Wireless router.

- Solves Brightness Popping issue.

- Improves picture quality.

- Supports more MSO in OnTV feature.

- Enhances Voice Recognition feature."


It's identical to the new release notes. I'm so sick and tired of this nonsense with Samsung not giving proper release notes. As usual we have no idea what they did in this firmware update. How is this acceptable?

I'm so glad I spent hours on the phone with them last month going over the issues with lag in game mode and AMP stutter in detail, just so that it all goes ignored.

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post #1898 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

Is there no way to compensate for the Impulse setting's dimness?

Not on the W802A; Impulse is super dim even with the backlight at max in a dark room. Maybe a future model will be able to do better with much brighter LEDs. I wish Sony provided explicit control over the strobe rate, so a user could decide on an appropriate compromise between brightness and clarity. (At least it would satisfy my curiosity to compare. smile.gif )
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

When I had my Sony HX850, I actually played Tomb Raider (PC) and Ni No Kuni with Motionflow Clear/Standard/Smooth enabled. It was GORGEOUS. Everything was so clear! And Sony's implementation didn't introduce visual artifacts. There was extra input lag, but it wasn't too hard to compensate in Tomb Raider. The 2013 Vizio M-series allows for motion smoothing to be used in Game Mode, so I'm asking questions about how that feels in its thread.

I wonder if it's just backlight related processing? That shouldn't need to delay more than a frame. I'll look for responses to your question there!

I played The Last Of Us on my F7100 and had a lot of trouble not noticing the constant edge judder/flicker because of the low frame rate....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuy01 View Post

As far as 30FPS gaming with higher refresh rates, that's what's been pushing me away from buying a plasma. A 600Hz refresh rate will make those double images very apparent.

The undefeatable Automatic Brightness Limitter (ABL) on plasmas is what rules them out for me. Friend of mine had a 2012 panasonic and it flickered constantly in DOA5. Bummer, since I'm kinda disgusted with LCD issues. frown.gif

Oh, and to keep things on topic for this thread:
Not sure if anybody noticed, but I found that "PC Mode" on Samsung displays actually enables proper display of RGB inputs without being processed through a lossy 4:2:2 colorspace conversion. You can see for yourself with this test pattern from an HTPC or PS3.

So in theory PC Mode is necessary for HTPC users expecting to get quality color rendering from madvr etc. BUT, the F7100(and probably F8000) turns off PC Mode when the resolution is switched to 1080p@24hz. So you now have the ugly choice between color quality or exact frame/refresh rate.
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post #1899 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 08:26 PM
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Hi AG ,

Nope , after all the "fun" with the F8000 wireless I hooked up the PS3 hardwired to my router.

I did this , I searched for media servers and I found one , and I played SR3rd for about 10 min. and did not get bounced off.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that did the trick , if not , I will post.
Strange thing is I did a connection test , and the PS3 is showing twice the speed the F8000 shows , of the same hardwired router , weird !

Yup , I see the lag , well I don`t see it but it is there , that has to be why I am such a lossy driver when I play Grid 2. LOL !

I have Grid original on my Mac and it runs so much better.

O___I called Sony support for help , no help , they must be in bed with Samsung !!

I found the tip through a Google search , thank God for the internet !!

Thanks smile.gif

Hi Eagle ,

I hear you load and clear , WHERE IS THE 3D BUTTON , Samsung ?

I am glad that the other remote we have has it !!

Take care guy`s biggrin.gif

Later ,

G. 

O__ , I did the 1105 dance , no difference , I will give the Voice a try !
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post #1900 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I had asked about that many pages ago and never heard anything more on it. I would like to know more about how the motion resolution works also, and how it works between 2D and 3D, and also how AMP factors in.

This helps explain Samsungs clear motion rate.
http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-the-refresh-rate#clear-motion-rate

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post #1901 of 7664 Old 07-11-2013, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

That Amazon button is ridiculous. Why isn't that the p-size button instead? The D-series remotes had a p-size button that allows switching aspect ratios with a single button press instead of drilling through menus. Otherwise these remotes are pretty nice. Oh the illumination was pretty poor on previous models - probably the same here. The polished metal one I bought a while back has far better lighting.

Actually - wait a minute - where's the 3D button? Are you kidding me? Am I missing it? Please tell me I'm missing it. Because this is a 3D tv and previous remotes like this had a 3D button. No 3D button makes this remote worthless since it's a 3D tv and I use the 3D button often for switching into 3D mode for my side-by-side files which the tv doesn't automatically detect.

So we get an Amazon and Netflix button (both worthless) and yet no 3D button or picture-size button. Nice.

+1, Somebody at Samsung's remote design team is on "something". LOL.

The ES remote had a 3D button and Device button to control the STB and other equipment.
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post #1902 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 12:23 PM
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I am not an expert by any means, but when I received my F8000 about a month ago, I had the same issue with my remote not being able to change channels on my DirecTV. The guide would come up and be grayed out, and I contacted Samsung support which always seems fruitless, and they told me that with HDMI connection, the guide cannot be used. Pretty stupid...........anyway, the only change I have made was to add aToslink cable from the 8000 to my Yamaha RX-V765 AVR and NOW I can manipulate the guide with the supplied TV remote.
Go figure. Worked for me, might not for anyone else, might for you.........good luck
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post #1903 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 12:55 PM
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Just got my remote. Nice remote, but I wonder why they left out the 3D button? It would be nice if they added a game mode button.

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post #1904 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 01:26 PM
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Just got my remote today, and yeah, it's missing the 3D button. I'm not happy. If you look at their different remotes, they make several of these styles for different sets, and they all look very similar. I'm convinced that this remote was made for their non-3D sets. They could have sent us a different remote with a 3D button. They could have sent us this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAMSUNG-AA59-00431A-PLASMA-REMOTE-CONTROL/dp/B007C4HFMS

And it has the 3D button. But it doesn't have the fancy smarthub button (it has a smarthub button, just not fancy like the one they sent us).

They also could have given us this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAMSUNG-AA5900638A-Original-Remote-Control/dp/B009M8E9X0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1373660656&sr=1-1&keywords=SAMSUNG+AA59-00638a

That was last year's I believe - it has the 3D button, and fancy smarthub button (but no p-size button like the first remote I linked to above).

Samsung just doesn't care, We all know this. It's inexcusable that the remote they sent us for their 3D tv doesn't have a 3D button. Unbelievable!

Also the envelope arrived totally ripped open so I had to make sure it was okay before I accepted the package.

Also I took the plunge and installed the new firmware. No idea what changed if anything because they don't tell us! They didn't fix the 3D light output defaulting to low every time you turn it off, I can confirm that already because I checked. Really, how hard would that be to fix since I reported it to them and the girl admitted that that could be annoying. What do they even do with these firmware updates? They fix nothing and improve nothing.

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post #1905 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GR1MM View Post

Just got my remote. Nice remote, but I wonder why they left out the 3D button? It would be nice if they added a game mode button.

Absolutely (although game mode is broken this year anyways so I guess it doesn't matter). But yeah, instead of useful buttons we get useless buttons. All these buttons and yet some important ones left off.

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post #1906 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 02:19 PM
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In menu settings, which setting name handles:

1. Micro dimming (ultimate)
2. Precision Black Local Dimming

What does, "led clear motion", do in the Auto Motion Plus setting? (some people turn it on, like Cnet, some off)
What does "Smart led" do? (most set it to standard)

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post #1907 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bekindrewind View Post

In menu settings, which setting name handles:

1. Micro dimming (ultimate)
2. Precision Black Local Dimming

The remote with the Evo Kit has a 3D button...
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post #1908 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 02:34 PM
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Digimat, not shure what a remote having a 3d button has to do with my question about micro dimming and precision black local dimming?

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post #1909 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bekindrewind View Post

In menu settings, which setting name handles:

1. Micro dimming (ultimate)
2. Precision Black Local Dimming

What does, "led clear motion", do in the Auto Motion Plus setting? (some people turn it on, like Cnet, some off)
What does "Smart led" do? (most set it to standard)

1. There is no setting for micro dimming. It's always on except for certain modes like movie, game, PC.

2. Precision black is smart led.

From what I can tell led clear motion is backlight blinking to help the picture look smoother. I have this off as well as dejudder at 0 and motion blur at 10. Very clear with absolutely no SOE. I also typically have smart led on low, but that's just a personal preference. I don't ever want to see my screen dim or get brighter in extreme contrast swings, but some people have had pretty good luck with standard as well.
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post #1910 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMonger1 View Post

1. There is no setting for micro dimming. It's always on except for certain modes like movie, game, PC.

2. Precision black is smart led.

From what I can tell led clear motion is backlight blinking to help the picture look smoother. I have this off as well as dejudder at 0 and motion blur at 10. Very clear with absolutely no SOE. I also typically have smart led on low, but that's just a personal preference. I don't ever want to see my screen dim or get brighter in extreme contrast swings, but some people have had pretty good luck with standard as well.

Some review sites for this set have claimed that the SMART LED feature is actually Micro-Dimming. Samsung has never and will never actually say if this is true. I get the feeling that it is true.

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post #1911 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digimat View Post

The remote with the Evo Kit has a 3D button...

Exactly. They've been giving us the wrong remotes for this set. The remotes we've been getting are clearly intended for 2D sets, not 3D. I suggest a few calls to Samsung to bring to their attention that they're mailing out 2D remotes for their 3D tv sets. They may not even be aware of this since they have so many remotes that all look the same. They're all pretty clueless over there in Samsung land. I plan to call them and verify if they intentionally planned to send us remotes with no 3D button for our 3D tvs.
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post #1912 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 07:24 PM
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Hi Guy`s ,

Hey Eagle , so after all we have been through , now they are sending out the wrong remote eek.gif

You know , at this stage of the game , I would be surprised if Samsung did anything right.

They probably want to see just how much we can take before a class action law suit is filed wink.gif

The wrong remote.... what are they doing at Samsung ? confused.gif

Later smile.gif

Me. 
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post #1913 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Some review sites for this set have claimed that the SMART LED feature is actually Micro-Dimming. Samsung has never and will never actually say if this is true. I get the feeling that it is true.

Micro-Dimming is not Smart LED (Precision Black). I repeat Micro-Dimming is not Smart LED. Micro-Dimming is only software based and IMO worthless without hardware dimming to back it up (no pun intended). Micro-Dimming in combination with Smart LED gives great blacks with no haloing like full array. Edgelit has less of a problem with haloing, but can still be a slight problem occasionally.

I've said this before, but Micro-Dimming is the same this year as it was last year on the ES. The processor analyzes thousands of zones for sharpness, color, and contrast on a frame by frame basis and blocks the light shining through the pixel with intelligent software. No matter how much the software blocks the light, it will never produce as deep as a black as turning the light off behind the pixel. Smart LED is just that. It is hundreds of hardware zones that physically dim the LEDs behind the LCD. Smart LED in combination with Micro-Dimming is how the F series (in the US anyways) creates its deep blacks. The UE series unfortunately does not get Smart LED (Precision Black, also know as local dimming).
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post #1914 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 09:47 PM
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Hello,
I don't own this TV yet. I've watched this review video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlIkjPSShPU @ 7:19) and was very interested in a feature that enables a smart phone to display the same content as the TV. I read the UNxxF8000 manual but don't see any feature like that mentioned.

Is that youtube review about this TV UNxxF8000???

Thanks in advance for your answer!
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post #1915 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMonger1 View Post

1. There is no setting for micro dimming. It's always on except for certain modes like movie, game, PC.

2. Precision black is smart led.

From what I can tell led clear motion is backlight blinking to help the picture look smoother. I have this off as well as dejudder at 0 and motion blur at 10. Very clear with absolutely no SOE. I also typically have smart led on low, but that's just a personal preference. I don't ever want to see my screen dim or get brighter in extreme contrast swings, but some people have had pretty good luck with standard as well.

Hm, does Game Mode actually disable CE Dimming on the F8000? It doesn't on the F7100, which is very annoying, but there's a workaround if you need it too.

On the F7100, LED Clear Motion causes me major eye strain even though I can't see any flickering. Wonder if the implementation in the F8000 is any different. Anybody had problems?

You might want to reconsider using Custom[deblur:10 dejudder:0] instead of Clear. I thought they were equivilent, but I realized that Clear does a much better job controlling 24p edge flicker, without detectable frame insertion.
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post #1916 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMonger1 View Post

1. There is no setting for micro dimming. It's always on except for certain modes like movie, game, PC.

2. Precision black is smart led.

From what I can tell led clear motion is backlight blinking to help the picture look smoother. I have this off as well as dejudder at 0 and motion blur at 10. Very clear with absolutely no SOE. I also typically have smart led on low, but that's just a personal preference. I don't ever want to see my screen dim or get brighter in extreme contrast swings, but some people have had pretty good luck with standard as well.

The F8000 provides the highest level of micro dimming, ultimate.
Most people use movie mode, as the most accurate source for picture quality.
Movie mode disables micro dimming ultimate ?

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post #1917 of 7664 Old 07-12-2013, 11:13 PM
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Just got my remote today, and yeah, it's missing the 3D button. I'm not happy. If you look at their different remotes, they make several of these styles for different sets, and they all look very similar. I'm convinced that this remote was made for their non-3D sets. They could have sent us a different remote with a 3D button. They could have sent us this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAMSUNG-AA59-00431A-PLASMA-REMOTE-CONTROL/dp/B007C4HFMS

And it has the 3D button. But it doesn't have the fancy smarthub button (it has a smarthub button, just not fancy like the one they sent us).

They also could have given us this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAMSUNG-AA5900638A-Original-Remote-Control/dp/B009M8E9X0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1373660656&sr=1-1&keywords=SAMSUNG+AA59-00638a

According to the UK Samsung site the UK version XXF8000 comes bundled with 2 remotes TM1390A / TM1240 Remote Controller
$15.99 on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-Remote-Control-TM1240-Original/dp/B008KFE6IY/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header
The TM1240 has 3D and P.size buttons
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post #1918 of 7664 Old 07-13-2013, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman View Post

Hello,
I don't own this TV yet. I've watched this review video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlIkjPSShPU @ 7:19) and was very interested in a feature that enables a smart phone to display the same content as the TV. I read the UNxxF8000 manual but don't see any feature like that mentioned.

Is that youtube review about this TV UNxxF8000???
That review is about the UK version of the f8000 yes.

It can display the same content on android devices. Just recently the iOS smarthub app was updated to included a "dual view" but claims not to support HDMI..funny DLNA doesn't work either. Here is the Samsung Tab 7 doing what you are asking about:




I honesly don't care if the remote has a 3D button but if the evo kit remote had a 3d button and ours doesn't....now thats messed up.
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post #1919 of 7664 Old 07-13-2013, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theslydog View Post

According to the UK Samsung site the UK version XXF8000 comes bundled with 2 remotes TM1390A / TM1240 Remote Controller
$15.99 on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-Remote-Control-TM1240-Original/dp/B008KFE6IY/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header
The TM1240 has 3D and P.size buttons

Well I got the remote below (living in NL), but according to the TV box this version is also meant for the UK.

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post #1920 of 7664 Old 07-13-2013, 01:20 AM
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Of the three F8000 remotes I have the Model: BN59-01054A is still my favorite... The Amazon price is not the cheapest but they have one of the best no hassle guarantees...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0099CHEAY/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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