HX950 vs ZT60/VT50? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 04-19-2013, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what i've come down to:
1) sony xbr 65hx950 - problem - apparently is going to have more motion blur during sports (from compressed satellite signal) OR
2) upcoming panasonic TC-P65ZT60 (supposed to be awesome but not out yet - somewhat comparable to the TC-P65VT50) - plasma supposedly handles motion better - problem - very bright room
opinions? xbr with motion blur vs. panny in a very bright room?????
thanks,
steve
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post #2 of 16 Old 04-19-2013, 09:49 PM
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I have read some great things about the ZT60, Panasonic uses an anti glare film in their higher end plasmas. As far as motion blur goes, you will not see any lag on plasma display panels. Also, black levels on the zt60 will be much deeper than sony hx950
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post #3 of 16 Old 04-19-2013, 09:54 PM
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I'd be more concerned about image retention. All the information I have read suggests that image retention will be an issue if you play a lot of games OR watch cable tv channels with banners or logo's (so almost any cable tv channel).

If you primarily watch movies then go plasma.
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post #4 of 16 Old 04-19-2013, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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i was starting to lean toward the plasma (in spite of everything i've heard about not being optimal in a bright room - and i have a wall of windows that i like to leave open). but i had not considered image retention. i watch alot of sports (espn constantly scrolling crap on the bottom) and cnbc (constantly scrolling stuff all over the place).
interestingly, previously i had been told if i don't watch a lot of movies the *950* is probably not the right tv for me (?). so that would be the opposite of what you just said. maybe there isn't a right one for me.
the 950 has alot of motion blur on sports (i already have it and was thinking about returning it for the panny). if i keep it i guess i'm stuck with the motion blur. unbelievable.
someone had the idea of running it through an oppo 103 to clean up the signal but i actually contacted the company and they said it would not fix compression issues like motion blur.
i also contacted DVDO and they said the same thing - no fix.
it seems like a shame to me that there is really no clear cut direction. each choice has problems of its own.
seems like a shame to spend that much money and not have close to perfection.
the answer of course would be that the cable and satellite companies get their act together and send out better signals but i don't see that happening. discouraging.
so now the panny in a bright room AND image retention issues vs the 950 with motion blur. i guess i'm leaning back to just keeping the 950.
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post #5 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 03:12 PM
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Are you sure you've set up the 950 correctly ? You have the Rolls Royce of LCD sets there... And that model has a stack of motion handling controls. I have the HX820 which in Australia was the next model down and I have no motion issues whatsoever. If my memory serves me correctly, the 950 has some insane level of Sonys "motion plus" or whatever it's called, some thing like 960 with backlight scanning turned on. With backlight scanning turned on on mine the motion is akin to plasma.

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post #6 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 03:22 PM
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I'm wondering the same thing, 1000. With Motionflow enabled, motion blur should be greatly reduced. On the HX850 that I had, the model below the 950, enabling Motionflow on its highest setting completely removed blur during the tests I did with The Fellowship of the Ring. It actually made certain CGI-heavy scenes with lots of panning (prologue Mount Doom battle) look awkward because the motion blur that obscured the visual seams was gone. Instead of a large battlefield filled with thousands of troops, I saw row upon row of copy and pasted people on a fake landscape. smile.gif

Actually, seeing that was fascinating from a "how was this scene built" perspective.

Plasmas may be inherently better with motion than LEDs, but the latter have started to handily catch up.
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post #7 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 03:52 PM
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I agree. My main panel is an ES8000 and its motion handling is top notch, just as good as my old Kuro.

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post #8 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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yea, i'm sure of the setup and settings. none of the settings help at all for a basketball game. on a movie, i think it would handle that just fine. especially if it's off of a blue ray.

i had the most senior tech from Listen Up (high end store in denver where i bought it) out a few days ago who's been a tech for years and has pretty much seen it all. he knew right away that it was the source (compression from satellite company - and i had concluded as much from the vast amount of reading i've done trying to figure out what to do) and there's not much that can be done to clear that up until the source (satellite/cable) starts sending out a better (less compressed signal). he messed with the settings to try to help and turned everything off (settings) in an attempt to "smooth" the motion, it just looked ?foggy/blurry? to me and brought judder into the mix as well, which to me is even worse and starts making me dizzy immediately. to me it looks best with the default settings, except it has the motion blur, which is evident with any setting. i've seen posts from others about motion blur on the 950 so it's not just me although it might be whether someone might be more susceptible to being bothered by it than another perhaps (?). but it seems strange that some seem to have it while others do not (?).

the overall conclusion appears to be that it is inherent within both LED's and plasma''s but much more prevalent in LED's still (i've also seen it in plasma's). but as you say, if there's an LED that should be handling it the best it should be the sony. any store that's had sports on, i've seen it on every tv. the plasma's WERE better though. which was making me lean toward taking my 950 back and getting a plasma. now i'm leaning the other way - just keep it (looks great when there's no movement) and hope for the source to improve over time, or upgrade to the 4k (as mentioned below).

the only other thing to do is try plasma, which has it's own issues like a bright room, in addition to a possibility for image retention as mentioned above. i saw some panasonic's today and i don't know if i was really that impressed. i certainly didn't say to myself wow that looks better than all the others. of course, they didn't have any sports going so i don't really know how they handle motion. man, i asked him to switch, he didn't, and i forgot to ask again. you would think that would be something key to remember! unbelievable. and was there for hours. i've got so much running through my head that was a major error on my part.

i went to a demo in colorado springs today for the 65" 4k version of the 950 that's just coming out. a sony rep gave me a number to talk to one of their engineers and try to figure out if there's some kind of solution for my 950 motion blur (i have my doubts on that).

another rep (store rep) thought that 4k might help with motion since there's more information and upscaling and all that (and i already bought my 950 at the other store so he knew there was no commission to be had) but i'm not too sure about that. others on forums have said it would probably make it even worse. it looks really good ... really good ... with 4k content of course ... they of course demo'ed it with perfect conditions. i said put a game on running off satellite or cable. they said oh we're not setup for that. the store will do it in the next week or so and i'll be able to see what it can do off the normal feeds, and compared to the others right beside it. should be interesting.

soooo, thanks for the thoughts.

the saga continues ... smile.gif
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post #9 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 09:53 PM
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I feel that 4K is a poor decision right now, and the sales person was likely just trying to get more money out of you. The first reason is content. 4K Blu-ray content is coming in at a trickle. The country is just recently seeing a majority of HDTV adoption, and many television stations and programs still aren't in 1080p resolution. The industry then tried to push 3D on consumers, which hasn't seen a huge adoption, and now they're gearing up for 4K. I don't see that transition happening quickly, and so content won't come quickly, either.

For modern games, 4K requires a huge amount of horse power, power that even the new consoles coming out this holiday season won't be able to provide. They can either have all the bells and whistles or support 4K, not both. Do not expect Battlefield 4 on the Playstation 4 and the future Xbox to be running at a 4K resolution. The majority of those games will still be 1080p, and since console generations now last a long time (and PC gaming is bottlenecked by consoles), 1080p isn't going anywhere for awhile.

The other reason is biology. If you're not planning to buy a 84" television, the benefits of 4K will be lost on your eyes. You can only see so much detail. If you have a 55", 65" television and you're viewing it on your couch from the recommended distances, you won't see much difference between 4K and 1080p. Higher resolutions are more noticeable on monitors, as you generally sit closer to them than you do a television. And while 4K may show its worth on those 84" screens (though you're still probably scaling the size of the TV with the distance from the couch), you run a greater risk of banding and flashlight/uniformity issues. Heck, If I wanted a screen that big I'd just buy a nice projector.
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post #10 of 16 Old 04-20-2013, 10:25 PM
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Have you checked out the Samsung F8500? While not perfect it may take care of your bright room performance worry....The Shootout at the beginning of May should give us a good idea of how the ZT stacks up against the other sets this year as well. If you werent so concerned about bright room viewing Id say hands down the ZT60 may be the way to go. Since you seem to be looking for a versitile set I thought Id throw the F8500 into the mix.
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post #11 of 16 Old 04-21-2013, 12:53 AM
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From all early accounts, the F8500 is set to be an outstanding panel... If you want plamsa. The other option is to wait it out for the F8000 series Samsung LCDs... They get good reviews so far and no mention of any issues with motion handling.

I still can't get my head around the fact that you can't get good motion out of the Sony. Have you tried turning on the backlight scanning (you'll know it by a big drop in panel brightness) ??? I'd love to share my HX820 settings with you but it's packed away for a few days because I'm moving house. Honestly, my HX820 motion handling is gorgeous... Yours is a better panel with better tech and a higher scan rate. I think mine with backlight scanning maxes out at 800... The 950 series maxes out at something like 960...I know that these motion trickery numbers from Sony and Samsung are all a bit of BS but you should be able to get your panel looking at least as good as mine with motion handling.

The other tHing you might want to do is turn off rubbish settings like 'noise reduction' and the like, they can have an impact on motion processing too. If I were you, I'd turn off every single setting in the menu that supposedly 'enhances' picture quality. Start there, test the motion and then start adding back in the important stuff. Also make sure you don't have the panel in modes like 'dynamic'... A turd setting like that will make all the faults 100% more visible. Alternatively, put the panel in 'game' mode or similar.. That eliminates a lot of picture trickery too.



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post #12 of 16 Old 04-21-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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i tried to do what would have been a perfect test today on the nba game on abc. i watched some from dish and then flipped over to my OTA antenna. of course, and i don't know why, but the game off of the antenna was being broadcast over the air in 780p. so it was not an apples and apples test. still, even in 780p, it was a little better than off the dish feed. so i tried the hockey game on nbc. i flipped back and forth between the OTA 1080i feed and the dish 1080i feed. now this should have been a good test. hockey is more difficult for me to see it and i'm not a hockey fan so i'm not used to it. i *think* the OTA was a little better on that too but it wasn't night and day. i still think it's the source but i still don't have a definitive conclusion though. i'm only going to be able to tell between bits of 1 basketball game to the same basketball game i guess.
again, see above for what i said about settngs. it doesn't help. again, even the expert senior tech messed with the settings to no avail (in my mind - introduced judder).

oh. what is "the Shootout" that's going to happen in May. i'm kind of in a bit of a quandry about comparing the ZT. i'm getting closer to my 30 days period for returning the 950 that i have. i don't know if that will make a difference if i get it from the same place (?). i would sure love to see the 950 next to the 4k next to the zt just to see the differences. i don't know if i'm going to have time to do that or not. i'm sure it would be ok with them to spend MORE and move up to the 4k but i'm not sure about prolonging it until the zt comes out and possibly spend less (?). we'll see.

thanks for the suggestion on the sammy but i don't really want to muddy the waters even more smile.gif
do the samsung plasmas also have the more predominant silver bevel? i don't even like the silver on the 905's. i would prefer a small black bevel. even the 4k is all black but has speakers on the front within the lines of the tv and doesn't look as good as if it didn't have them.

...
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post #13 of 16 Old 04-26-2013, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve259 View Post

Here's what i've come down to:
1) sony xbr 65hx950 - problem - apparently is going to have more motion blur during sports (from compressed satellite signal) OR
2) upcoming panasonic TC-P65ZT60 (supposed to be awesome but not out yet - somewhat comparable to the TC-P65VT50) - plasma supposedly handles motion better - problem - very bright room
opinions? xbr with motion blur vs. panny in a very bright room????? 47W805
thanks,
steve

65hx950 blur ? eek.gifeek.gif
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post #14 of 16 Old 04-26-2013, 06:51 AM
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I had the ES8000 and the clouding and flashlighting was annoying.

I now have the 950 and the screen uniformity is much better and blacks are slightly better. Biggest problem for me with the 950 is that the image seems too smooth/blurred compared to the ES8000 which was very sharp without introducing noise.

Bottom line is neither is perfect and it comes down to visual preference.
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post #15 of 16 Old 04-26-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve259 

oh. what is "the Shootout" that's going to happen in May. i'm kind of in a bit of a quandry about comparing the ZT. i'm getting closer to my 30 days period for returning the 950 that i have. i don't know if that will make a difference if i get it from the same place (?). i would sure love to see the 950 next to the 4k next to the zt just to see the differences. i don't know if i'm going to have time to do that or not. i'm sure it would be ok with them to spend MORE and move up to the 4k but i'm not sure about prolonging it until the zt comes out and possibly spend less (?). we'll see.
...
There will be minimal difference between 1080p and 4K on a 65'' from normal viewing distance. Besides that the 4K TVs right now are not future proof and most of them are Edge Lit LEDs (only Samsung 4K S9 is a FALD -> $40.000 wink.gif).

VE Flat Panel HDTV Shootout
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463325/2013-ve-annual-flat-panel-hdtv-shootout-dates-have-been-announced
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post #16 of 16 Old 06-15-2013, 03:02 PM
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I second morpapagan above: 65hx950 blur?? I have zero blur on mine! A little DSE on white pans, but other than that, we love it, and every time we watch it we comment on how gorgeous the picture looks!
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