Why do most 3D LCD sets this year appear to be passive? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just looking at the list of sets that will appear in the Value Electronics 2013 shootout, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems that the only active 3D LCD set appears to be the Samsung F8000. It seems Sony, Panasonic, and LG are all supporting mostly passive this year - it seems all the best LCD sets of each manufacturer are passive. Why is that? I've seen passive in stores and I just don't think the image is as good as active, especially on a bright set such as the F8000. The loss of resolution just isn't appealing to me. Vizio also supports passive. Is this marking the end of active, or is there some reason why so few active sets are being released this year? Is it just a matter of cost (cheaper for passive)? I just don't see how that could be considered the superior technology for tv 3D viewing. Is this really what most viewers prefer?
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post #2 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 04:33 AM
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It's the glass, I got the first passive set, a 65 inch vizio for just that reason. As for the resolution, after the set is set up it looks good, I have never given resolution a thought watching 3D on it. I would think the manufactures go where the market is. The active glass are just a little heavy, need to be powered by batteries, bulky and coast way to much, the flicker can give headaches, and on & on.
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post #3 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I was just looking at the list of sets that will appear in the Value Electronics 2013 shootout, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems that the only active 3D LCD set appears to be the Samsung F8000. It seems Sony, Panasonic, and LG are all supporting mostly passive this year - it seems all the best LCD sets of each manufacturer are passive. Why is that? I've seen passive in stores and I just don't think the image is as good as active, especially on a bright set such as the F8000. The loss of resolution just isn't appealing to me. Vizio also supports passive. Is this marking the end of active, or is there some reason why so few active sets are being released this year? Is it just a matter of cost (cheaper for passive)? I just don't see how that could be considered the superior technology for tv 3D viewing. Is this really what most viewers prefer?

It has a lot to do with diminishing returns. When manufacturers made the jump to the 3rd dimension the R&D cost to the company and consumers was huge and most companies went all in. After the initial excitement faded over the "active" technology and reviews concerned with comfort (weight/headache), convenience(batteries) and cost. LG came out guns blazing with the second generation "passive" tech which were light (easily fit over glasses), convenient (no battery) and inexpensive(could pack in 6 pair). If you have friends or a large family and you are trying to get the most out of your investment then passive was the way to go. Early on LG would offer bundled deals like 3D blu-ray player/HT in a box with a spindle of 12 pair of additional glasses, so the budget minded would gravitate towards "passive" 3D experience. Sony is now able to offer their "passive" at greatly reduced cost to the consumer and can hopefully boost their consumer mind share that they lost over the past 5-6 years. The other two that you mentioned Panasonic and Sony as far as I know are licensing the tech from
LG as well as Vizio. As we move into to the UHD (4k) territory passive will be able to do fullHD 1080p 3D which will cement it's place as the dominant tech.
Sorry if that was a little too consumer reports or Professor Shankenstein, hope it helped explain.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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It's too bad because in my opinion passive doesn't look nearly as good as active. A good active set doesn't have any noticeable flicker. Perhaps with 4k sets passive will finally be able to handle 1080p but what about right now? I bet if most companies mentioned in their literature and marketing that their 1080p LCDs only provided essentially 720p 3D, people wouldn't be so quick to jump at the passive tech. Most people just don't realize that they're taking a loss in resolution by going with passive. As you said, as more people move towards the tech with more/cheaper glasses, the companies will focus more on that tech. Too bad - reading the reviews on the F8000 3D compared to the 2013 Panasonic 3D passive sets, Samsung's active is the clear winner.
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post #5 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

It's too bad because in my opinion passive doesn't look nearly as good as active. A good active set doesn't have any noticeable flicker. Perhaps with 4k sets passive will finally be able to handle 1080p but what about right now? I bet if most companies mentioned in their literature and marketing that their 1080p LCDs only provided essentially 720p 3D, people wouldn't be so quick to jump at the passive tech. Most people just don't realize that they're taking a loss in resolution by going with passive. As you said, as more people move towards the tech with more/cheaper glasses, the companies will focus more on that tech. Too bad - reading the reviews on the F8000 3D compared to the 2013 Panasonic 3D passive sets, Samsung's active is the clear winner.


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post #6 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 06:37 AM
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Hi There ,

Eagle you are all over the place smile.gif

I have found that passive lacks the depth ( the background > in the background ) , but I have yet to have anything "pop" out at me with my F8000 active.

Could very well be me source which is an HD C-B with 3D , and I have only watched 2 movies.

Abraham Vampire Killer was fair at best , and I can not say much better for Final Destination 5 , although the car running over the eyeball was a nice touch !! LOL smile.gif

Later ,

Gary 
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 06:39 AM
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I have the LG 55LA7400 and will tell you without a doubt the 3D is excellent. There is no flicker and the reduced resolution is unnoticable. Around Christmas and Thanksgiving, I have over 15 house guest. This is in addition to the five people in our family. Try buying active 3D glasses for that many people. eek.gif The passive 3D on my LG is just perfect for me but to each his own.
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post #8 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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The preview for the LG LA8600 on LCDTVBuyingGuide says:

"The overall picture quality with 3D programming does tend to lose a lot of points. Color is the high point of 3D performance in the LA8600 hands down. It is depth, clean lines, and image brightness that aren't really as up to par as they are in an active 3D set."

I'm really surprised that all the manufacturers other than Samsung have chosen to use passive for their flagship models. I could understand if their mid-level sets used passive for the budget-minded or those who don't need the best 3D quality. But the flagship models should really be using active, since it really is superior to passive in terms of quality. For those that want a flagship model LCD this year, and also want the best quality 3D - they have essentially only one choice - the F8000, since everything else out there is passive. Those looking at the flagship models I imagine would be more interested in the best 3D experience, not the one with the cheapest glasses.
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post #9 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

The preview for the LG LA8600 on LCDTVBuyingGuide says:

"The overall picture quality with 3D programming does tend to lose a lot of points. Color is the high point of 3D performance in the LA8600 hands down. It is depth, clean lines, and image brightness that aren't really as up to par as they are in an active 3D set."

I'm really surprised that all the manufacturers other than Samsung have chosen to use passive for their flagship models. I could understand if their mid-level sets used passive for the budget-minded or those who don't need the best 3D quality. But the flagship models should really be using active, since it really is superior to passive in terms of quality. For those that want a flagship model LCD this year, and also want the best quality 3D - they have essentially only one choice - the F8000, since everything else out there is passive. Those looking at the flagship models I imagine would be more interested in the best 3D experience, not the one with the cheapest glasses.
Back in 2011 Panasonic with their plasma sets had some of the best active 3D I have ever seen. I owned an ST30 before selling to my friend to upgrade to the ST50 last year and regret it everyday. When Panasonic made the transition between the 30's-50's they change from 600hz sub-field to 2500ffd which I feel handles 3D far worse. Samsung has definitely continued to improve active tech and the E7000 plasma was the best I had seen from last generation. Plasma can actually deliver FullHD 1080p 3D because of the inherently faster panel technology. Most LED/LCD panels average between 300-400 lines of "moving" resolution with out the aid of interpolation technology like (LG) Trumotion, (Samsung) Auto motion plus and (Sony) motion flow. What passive 3D offers manufacturers with the FPR filter is they can have a set with 60hz refresh rate still be 3D, since there is no additional processing needed. That's not to say they won't add on post processing features, because like NASCAR the more stuff you have plastered to the outside of the box/car makes for better marketing.
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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So then when watching 1080p 3D on a Samsung LCD, with motion interpolation off, I'm not getting 1080p, but rather only 300-400 lines? That sounds pretty bad - so then why does the active look so much better than the passive, even with motion interpolation off? You can clearly see the black lines on a passive set - with active the image looks sharp and clear with no jaggies.

I was reading this about the F8000 on HDTVTest under motion resolution:

"As with previous Samsung LED LCDs, the Samsung UE55F8000 can show all 1080 lines in a scrolling resolution test chart, provided that the [Motion Plus] system is engaged. With this feature off, you’ll see the usual LCD motion performance, which delivers just 300 lines worth of clear details. That’s enough for 24fps movies to appear without much in the way of discernable blur, but fast, high motion content like televised sports will still appear with some."

Is this what you mean? It sounds like even in 2D the F8000 doesn't show more than 300 lines of resolution in motion without using motion interpolation. I'm still not sure what that means exactly - if it's a 1080p set, why is only 300 lines of resolution being displayed during motion? I'm confused. Is this because of the blur caused by the LCD tech, so that you can only make out 300 lines sharply?
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 12:18 PM
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I understand there are two passive 3D technologies and the one used by LG and I believe some others is better then the other technology.
Also in evaluating a passive 3D set you to check the quality of 2D since depending on the technology used the 2d/3d sets may have poorer picture when watching 2D programs.
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post #12 of 14 Old 05-10-2013, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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During the VE shootout tonight they discussed motion resolution a bit, and said that the Samsung plasmas were capable of displaying full 1080p 3D motion, unlike the Panasonics. I'm not sure if this applies to their LCD sets also.
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post #13 of 14 Old 05-26-2013, 08:47 AM
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Here is my take on what I have experienced with active and passive 3d. Active is very clean but the 3d goes into the picture (almost like looking out a window). On passive the 3d jumps out of the screen, but at the cost of having the interlaced look to the image. I am eagerly awaiting the Vizio M series 70". I have never owned a vizio before but I am hoping it is good.
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-26-2013, 01:19 PM
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Interesting article on displaymate.com (calibration software and equipment used by many TV reviewers):

http://www.displaymate.com/3D_TV_ShootOut_1.htm


"Main Conclusions
Based on our extensive lab measurements and visual test comparisons between 3D TVs with FPR Passive Glasses versus 3D TVs with Active Shutter Glasses, we found that the Passive Glasses TVs delivered substantially and demonstrably better all around 3D imaging, 3D Contrast and sense of 3D depth, better 3D sharpness, better overall 3D picture quality, immersion and realism, and freedom from 3D ghosting, image Crosstalk, and flicker. This was true in all but a small number of situations, all of which we document in the sections mentioned above."
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