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post #1 of 27 Old 05-11-2013, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, Ok, I know one shouldn't be making serious conclusions based on the poor feed from last night's Part 1, but some things just leaped out even with the poor video:

-If the sets were all calibrated, why was the Sony much, much brighter than all the others?

-The Panny LED and the SONY both had horrible screen uniformity. I can already envision the complaining about this for page after page here.

-The F8000 did it's usual "I'm on my break, don't bother me" all black shutoff with a very dark screen. (The Sony may also have done this.) I hope Samsung learns from that embarrassment in public and fixes the problem.

-During the screen uniformity tests, some one on the chat line commented "I'm looking at 4 gray green screens and 2 white ones (Sony and F8000.)"

-The F8000's uniformity looked right at home with the plasmas.

-I get it that some of those people were big shots. But some were just rude: during the new plasmas vs. Kuro shootout some guy stood right in front of the Kuro. No problem, except that he had this back to the screen and was looking into the audience. Several chatters commented "Sit !@#$%^&* down!!)


I hope somebody at VE sees this and can comment. I'll try to post the questions on their website if I can find the right place.
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post #2 of 27 Old 05-11-2013, 06:30 PM
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I had to bow out at the last moment for a family commitment unfortunately so wasn't able to attend. I look forward to detailed reports from those who were there.

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post #3 of 27 Old 05-12-2013, 11:07 PM
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post #4 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 03:44 AM
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I couldn't see any screen uniformity issues in the Sony.
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post #5 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy2160 View Post

Ok, Ok, I know one shouldn't be making serious conclusions based on the poor feed from last night's Part 1, but some things just leaped out even with the poor video:

-If the sets were all calibrated, why was the Sony much, much brighter than all the others?

I assume you're referring to the black level. If you look at the 2012 Shootout videos the same thing is evident with the LG LCD.

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post #6 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

Was alot of great info

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436/hdtvshootout/videos/18161789

Where is the Day 2 video??
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post #7 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

I couldn't see any screen uniformity issues in the Sony.

They were much more evident on Day 1 on some of the single color screens, but I still saw some on Day 2. (Again I realize the caveats.)

But surely its motion smearing was visible to anybody with eyes during the girl-on-a-swing sequence. (Does anybody know it that's available on a disk. I vaguely recall seeing it elsewhere, but can't remember.)

I think, despite it's claim of thorough, objective testing, the VE shootout just doesn't include some real world concerns about plasmas: short and long term image retention (or whatever you want to call it), noise, phosphor picture smoothness, and power use. Did anyone else notice a couple of the calibrators saying "Look! some image retention on 1 or 2 of the plasmas." When some one says (one of the calibrators) that the image retention goes away "in just a few seconds," he's totally dismissing how annoying that is when it happens real time when you're watching.

Ok, so sue me, but I think that stuff should be included in a test of everything that's relevant. If RZ is serious about his green concerns (note how he proudly announced that all the store lights were LEDS,) then why not include the power use of the TVs? C'mon, you can't have it both ways.

As much as I appreciate the VE shootout, I just appears too plasma biased to me. (Yes, I know the Elite won 2 years ago.)
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post #8 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I assume you're referring to the black level. If you look at the 2012 Shootout videos the same thing is evident with the LG LCD.

buzzard, I apologize ahead of time for not knowing if black level is the only way to adjust the screen brightness. all I'm saying is that the Sony (and to a lesser extent, the f8000) screen was much brighter on every screen content I recall.

They spent a lot of time explaining the light output levels on the 3 plasmas, including how the 8500 could have been set much higher than it was, but they set it to be more comparable to the other plasmas. While right next to these, the Sony is blazing away much brighter. Again with the Inet viewing caveat, the Sony and 8000 "white screens" looked "white," while the plasmas looked "grey." I thought that the 8500s claim to fame was that it could be as bright as a LCD, yet they didn't have it set as high as it could have been.

Would a correct test be to set the light output levels all the same or to set the light outputs higher if the TV could do it without causing other errors? Again, my apologies for non-calibrator terms.
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post #9 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 08:43 AM
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Viewed all both days on my PC as I watched TV and while I thank Robert for what he provided lets be honest this show is far from objective and turned into a Plasma Love Fest. Come on, with all the LCD's on the market and we get One Sony, One Samsung which they buried on the bottom row blocked 90% of the time while they put up that horrible Panny WT LCD which looked more like an 8 yr old LCD and not a single LG or Sharp and 95% of the viewing comparisons were with controlled low lighting comparisons after the first hour of day one - favoring Plasma.

Also, as skilled as DNice is I find his arrogance hard to stomach as they simply left the LCD's off during the final hours pretty arrogantly and rudely slamming the LCD's. DNice statement "I have no concern for LCD's since I have controlled lighting in my home", and in total denial of Plasma half a dozen faults in real time daylight viewing in homes with tall windows and southern exposures which destroys even that mighty KURO. Total denial and ARROGANCE and I'd never invite him to calibrate anything in my home with the attitude he brings with LCD and strong denial of daylight viewing which encompasses NCCA Football, NFL, weekends and most sports are daytime and some of us are retired and view all day yet this was treated as everything was for darkness night view of movies with ambient light controls, instead of reality of gaming and sports in the other half of the day - if this weren't FACT then LCD wouldn't control most of the marketplace that consumers choose leaving us with Panny and Samsung the only survivors.

Let's face it this was far from OBJECTIVE and Panasonic funds much of it otherwise how they explain that POS Panasonic WT LCD - Panny has no flagship LCD and they have spent more than a decade and millions trashing LCD and yet they made sure the F8000 was demoted to the bottom row in favor of Panasonic garbage IPS Panel which was terrible.

This was a Plasma Shootout aiming for ideal theater dark comparisons when in fact that ZT/VT would be destroyed in sunlit rooms with high end tall arched windows without a man cave. They really need to do the shootouts segregating the technology as LCD has huge advantages over Plasma in many respects yet they annually highlight ideal light controls that ignore those real life conditions where with dark movies or gaming and watching sports with the sun shining in where my Sharps, Sony, Samsung LCD's destroyed the Plasma I owned and I mean DESTROYED comparatively in high light situations where I could not see 80%+ content on the screen viewing on the Panasonic plasma I owned - I hated it on top of the dirty grayish or yellowed urinated on whites and I've ski'd and been to the Caribbean and the color in real life is Bright White requiring goggles or sun glasses not dirty gray or yellowish the Panny can present most of the time. At least in the past LG, Sharp had samples but all we got was a Panasonic Lovefest otherwise how does one explain that piece of junk WT series IPS panel from Panasonic - it was horrendous and you put the F8000 on the bottom row unseen for 90% of the shootout and ignored pretty much. rolleyes.gif
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Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #10 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 09:04 AM
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I think Westa6969 hit a home run with most of what he said. I hope DNice can get it together with the attitude and can tone it down a little . I understand it's really a one night shot for him, and I know it's not his World and we just live in it. Come on DNice develop a little Humbleness and Humility. You have a great reputation just don't throw it all away before you can recover. I say this in respect for you and all the Good things you have done on this Forum.
The Great HDTV Shootout, should change to the great Plasma Shootout it would sound a lot more accurate and fair. Westa is correct in saying they never point out the obvious points that the LED/LCD do better that the Plasma's. It is a fact that certain people prefer led/lcd over Plasma's. Just like this group prefers Plasma's over anything.

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post #11 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 10:17 AM
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Lets face it that room was filled with plasma worshipers.I mean even in the audience you have people who worked with panasonic and a person who was a active force behind plasma( no disrespect) and people who already Pre-ordered plasma tvs from VE store.

Did any audience member ask anything about the lcd, NO .They where all only bothered about the plasma.

The Sony 4k tv was showing 4k only after the voting took place and i believe it was not even calibrated to show the 4k remastered movies from Sony ,which have the X.V color that exceed the REC709 color space which it was calibrated to.
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post #12 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 07:45 PM
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the part 1 video appears to be part 2 (starts in the middle discussing luminance sweeps (all TVs displaying green field test patterns)... where is the actual part 1 video?
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post #13 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 10:14 PM
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Lets face it guys. Plasmas have much better picture quality
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post #14 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Viewed all both days on my PC as I watched TV and while I thank Robert for what he provided lets be honest this show is far from objective and turned into a Plasma Love Fest. Come on, with all the LCD's on the market and we get One Sony, One Samsung which they buried on the bottom row blocked 90% of the time while they put up that horrible Panny WT LCD which looked more like an 8 yr old LCD and not a single LG or Sharp and 95% of the viewing comparisons were with controlled low lighting comparisons after the first hour of day one - favoring Plasma.

Also, as skilled as DNice is I find his arrogance hard to stomach as they simply left the LCD's off during the final hours pretty arrogantly and rudely slamming the LCD's. DNice statement "I have no concern for LCD's since I have controlled lighting in my home", and in total denial of Plasma half a dozen faults in real time daylight viewing in homes with tall windows and southern exposures which destroys even that mighty KURO. Total denial and ARROGANCE and I'd never invite him to calibrate anything in my home with the attitude he brings with LCD and strong denial of daylight viewing which encompasses NCCA Football, NFL, weekends and most sports are daytime and some of us are retired and view all day yet this was treated as everything was for darkness night view of movies with ambient light controls, instead of reality of gaming and sports in the other half of the day - if this weren't FACT then LCD wouldn't control most of the marketplace that consumers choose leaving us with Panny and Samsung the only survivors.

Let's face it this was far from OBJECTIVE and Panasonic funds much of it otherwise how they explain that POS Panasonic WT LCD - Panny has no flagship LCD and they have spent more than a decade and millions trashing LCD and yet they made sure the F8000 was demoted to the bottom row in favor of Panasonic garbage IPS Panel which was terrible.

This was a Plasma Shootout aiming for ideal theater dark comparisons when in fact that ZT/VT would be destroyed in sunlit rooms with high end tall arched windows without a man cave. They really need to do the shootouts segregating the technology as LCD has huge advantages over Plasma in many respects yet they annually highlight ideal light controls that ignore those real life conditions where with dark movies or gaming and watching sports with the sun shining in where my Sharps, Sony, Samsung LCD's destroyed the Plasma I owned and I mean DESTROYED comparatively in high light situations where I could not see 80%+ content on the screen viewing on the Panasonic plasma I owned - I hated it on top of the dirty grayish or yellowed urinated on whites and I've ski'd and been to the Caribbean and the color in real life is Bright White requiring goggles or sun glasses not dirty gray or yellowish the Panny can present most of the time. At least in the past LG, Sharp had samples but all we got was a Panasonic Lovefest otherwise how does one explain that piece of junk WT series IPS panel from Panasonic - it was horrendous and you put the F8000 on the bottom row unseen for 90% of the shootout and ignored pretty much. rolleyes.gif

You said it perfectly and I agree 100%. I watched 100% of day 1 and about half of day 2 and I just couldn't take any more of it. They completely ignore all the drawbacks of plasma and set their entire "shootout" to favor the perfect viewing conditions of plasma, while ignoring the strong points of LCD (how about a test that shows which provides better viewing in brightly-lit conditions?). They completely dismissed any mention of image retention like it's not an issue - sorry, but after trying two different plasmas in the last 2 years, I cam confident in saying that image retention is still an issue, and it doesn't go away in just a few seconds - that's boloney. Often it takes hours or sometimes days to erase image retention that only takes a few minutes to set in.

And I agree that the choice of LCDs was pathetic at the shootout. The F8000 deserved better treatment and more attention. And where were the other brands? Why was this done so early when other manufacturers don't even have their newest LCDs out yet? That Panasonic LCD was a joke, and proved itself to be complete garbage, and my only guess why it was there was either because Panasonic had a say in it, or it furthered the shootout's aim to demonstrate how much better plasmas are. This was not a very subjective comparison of sets, and to be fair, there should be two categories - one for plasma and one for LCD, because they are very different beasts, both with their own sets of strength and weaknesses. Plasma fans like to pretend that there are no downsides to plasma - as a previous owner I can most certainly say there are several. It's also too bad 3D got shunned as usual - as a fan of 3D, that plays into my buying decision. The Panasonic plasmas last year had lousy 3D compared to the Samsung plasmas and LCDs.

LCD's biggest issue currently is with uniformity. In many other areas they beat plasma hands-down. Yes, plasma has better black levels. But how about whites? Or does that not count? How about dithering? Heat? Buzzing? Image Retention? Weight? By watching the shootout you might wonder why anybody even makes an LCD since they're so terrible. This was the first time I watched the shootout - now I know not to bother next year. It's too bad because it's a great concept - but terrible execution.
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post #15 of 27 Old 05-13-2013, 11:24 PM
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I found it ironic, the founder of plasma, was more excited about LCD's than anybody else there. The man who gave birth to the plasma TV.
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post #16 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 05:50 AM
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Let's be honest here - a shootout like this can only cover so much anyways. The owners of these sets know far more about how these sets actually perform than anybody there who only sees the sets for a few hours before voting. There's more to how a tv performs than just the black levels and color decoding. I currently own the F8000 ( I say currently because I'm on my second set and both have had dead pixels - if I can't find a unit without dead pixels then maybe I won't be an F8000 owner). I have no doubt it's probably among the best LCD sets of the year. Yet there are certainly some issues that they would never bring up at the shootout - you'd be lucky if these were even mentioned in a pro-review. Currently the Motion Plus feature (which is Samsung's name for their motion smoother via frame interpolation) has some serious issues, which greatly affects the way they advertise the set will work. Their smooth motion is more like a constant stream of stuttering, and their custom blur reduction setting causes forced frame interpolation of any PAL or 24.000fps content, resulting in the dreaded soap opera effect, even though their custom blur reduction mode shouldn't do that. Game mode is completely useless as it doesn't reduce input lag to any useable degree (thankfully PC mode does work very well for gaming with low input lag).

These are just a couple issues that come to mind. I know from my experience with the Samsung plasmas and from what I've read in the F8500 thread so far this year that they are still plagued by brightness pops during bright scenes, and that engaging cinema smooth (their 24p mode for blu-ray playback) causes a rise in black levels - this was a well-known issue the last two years. If you want to watch blu-rays in true 24p, it means making a sacrifice in the black levels. To get the best black levels you can't engage 24p cinema smooth, which means you have to deal with some pulldown judder. Funny how they don't address that in the shootout. I don't have that issue with the F8000 LCD - it properly handles 24p content without that sacrifice.

It's too bad this shootout wasn't more evenly balanced. Leaving aside which technology is "better" (which is subjective depending on the criteria used for judging "better"), the same technology isn't going to be the best for everybody. Gamers worried about image retention (rightfully so), people who often watch tvs in brightly-lit rooms ( a large majority of people right there), people who want the best all-around tech for delivering great image quality without the hassles of plasma break-in periods, worrying about image retention, want to surf the 'net regularly or use their PC, people who watch lots of 4:3 content or CinemaScope content (again, an issue with image retention) - these are all people who would be better off with LCD. A plasma would not be the best choice for them maybe. For those who live in a man-cave, and don't plan on gaming, and don't watch lots of tv with station ID bugs, and won't be using their tv as a monitor at times, and want the absolute best black levels regardless of other concerns - these people may benefit from plasma.

The shootout acts like one technology is best for everybody, and that's simply not the case. If it were, then nobody would be buying LCD. The shootout just didn't offer a fair test of varying content. They act like the only thing people do with their sets is watch films, when that's far from accurate. Where were the sports? Sports is huge. I guarantee hockey looks better on LCD than plasma - I can say that from experience. How about upscaling? 3D? Gaming/input lag? None of this was properly addressed, as if it doesn't matter, when it does.
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post #17 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by flyboy2160 View Post

buzzard, I apologize ahead of time for not knowing if black level is the only way to adjust the screen brightness. all I'm saying is that the Sony (and to a lesser extent, the f8000) screen was much brighter on every screen content I recall.

They spent a lot of time explaining the light output levels on the 3 plasmas, including how the 8500 could have been set much higher than it was, but they set it to be more comparable to the other plasmas. While right next to these, the Sony is blazing away much brighter. Again with the Inet viewing caveat, the Sony and 8000 "white screens" looked "white," while the plasmas looked "grey." I thought that the 8500s claim to fame was that it could be as bright as a LCD, yet they didn't have it set as high as it could have been.

Would a correct test be to set the light output levels all the same or to set the light outputs higher if the TV could do it without causing other errors? Again, my apologies for non-calibrator terms.

The 2012 Shootout had all displays set to peak luminance at 35 Foot Lamberts. This year, I suppose because the ZT was only capable of 30 FtL they used a mixed bag of luminance on the various displays - big mistake in my opinion as it left the Shootout with no base.

The word Bright can get confusing with displays. The User Menu "Brightness" control is used to adjust black level, the dark end of the picture. It is set using a test pattern called a pluge and there is only one correct setting for any given display. How dark that particular setting turns out to be is the darkest that display is going to get. Moreover, contrast ratio is max luminance (how bright the set can get) divided by the black level. A slightly lower black level, say 0.05 Foot Lamberts, has a much larger influence on CR than an increase of 5.0 FtL on the bright end (max luminance) and this is why such a big deal is made of the black level, also called Minimum Light Level (MLL). The reason the Sony appeared so much "brighter" than the rest of the displays while dark content was on screen is because that was as dark as it was capable of displaying.

About White, it is a point called D65 on a CIE Chart with x and y coordinates. The highest luminance white on the display is what the brain perceives as "white" and lower luminance "whites" (which look gray) are perceived as less than "white" all the way down to zero luminance which is black. Having fun yet? lol

To further complicate matters, comments are often made about colors being "more saturated" on certain displays. It's the brain again which perceives a given saturation at a higher luminance as more saturated even though it isn't. The reason the Rec.709 HDTV standard exists is to keep perspective. All of the grays and color luminances are mathematically based on the highest luminance for the particular display being calibrated.

A very well done explanation with understandable graphics can be seen here.

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The man who gave birth to the plasma TV.

Ouch. That musta hurt....

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post #18 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 06:55 AM
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I have grown to hate LED TV's and bought an ST60. Funny thing is I now have a 60es7500 and my ST60 is being returned to the store today.

I am still questing my decision though. The blacks seem really good on the es7500, especially with any kind of lighting in the room but everything you read tries to make you believe that the blacks on these TV's are terrible. In the daytime the blacks look blacker then the ST60 but I keep reading it is not. My es7500 screen uniformity is almost perfect with lights out and is perfect with lights on.

One thing that is terrible on LEDs isN side angle viewing. Nothing you do can save this one!

Don't get me wrong the ST60 had a fantastic picture with rich, saturated colors but the image retention I was getting was pretty bad. Watched Fox Sports for an hour and had IR of the logo for a day after that.

Also, I do not know why Panasonic even adds smart features to their TV. It is terrible even though most people don't buy the TV for those features but have a 2 1/2 year old son, smart features and those things come in handy in my house.

Anyway, everything I read says I should hate my es7500 after owning a ST60 but I think I am pretty happy with it even though I keep doubting myself and wondering if I am actually downgrading. I just feel the 60es7500 is more of a family oriented TV while the ST60 might be best in a movie room watching DVD's and movie type content. If not for the IR, I probably would have kept it but I keep certain channels on for long periods of time and do I really want Fox Sports advertising on every channel I watch in addition to the actually channels logo. One logo is enough for me. Lol
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post #19 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 08:03 AM
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According the audience votes Plasma are better in daylight viewing, thats new to me rolleyes.gif This show the clear bias.

The expert votes tilt the favour to the lcds in daylight viewing .Even from the web telecast ,one could make out the LCD's having a contrast edge over all plasma under daylight viewing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

According the audience votes Plasma are better in daylight viewing, thats new to me rolleyes.gif This show the clear bias.

The expert votes tilt the favour to the lcds in daylight viewing .Even from the web telecast ,one could make out the LCD's having a contrast edge over all plasma under daylight viewing.
Lol, I didn't even think that was up for discussion. I thought it was a fact that LED's handle daytime lights better.
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post #21 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 08:35 AM
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post #22 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 05:01 PM
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the part 1 video appears to be part 2 (starts in the middle discussing luminance sweeps (all TVs displaying green field test patterns)... where is the actual part 1 video?

anyone? where can I see both part 1 and 2?
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 06:21 PM
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anyone? where can I see both part 1 and 2?

Part 1 is on livestream, Part 2 disappeared on Sunday morning.

This weekend all Videos from Day 1 and Day 2 will be posted at:

http://www.youtube.com/user/HDTVShootout?feature=watch
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post #24 of 27 Old 05-14-2013, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

According the audience votes Plasma are better in daylight viewing, thats new to me rolleyes.gif This show the clear bias.

The expert votes tilt the favour to the lcds in daylight viewing .Even from the web telecast ,one could make out the LCD's having a contrast edge over all plasma under daylight viewing.

depends on how much light you have coming in and if you have curtains
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post #25 of 27 Old 06-10-2013, 09:15 AM
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Interesting why the VT60 couldn't give you as nice color tracking as my old G30E does to me. Did Panasonic got worse over the years or...?
I honestly doubt this possibility (please don't get me wrong) but in case it's still a secret then I would reveal this to you: I used the Color parameter (the one from the main basic picture mode settings between Brightness and Sharpness) to control how fast the colors get saturated from the neutral white to the clean primary colors (secondaries will nicely follow if you have "some" luck).

In my case, I had to lower the Color value from the default 30 to 27. (Of course, the actual values and their defaults usually differ between US and EU [and may be UK] models, as well as between the TV chipsets/softwares/panels/etc and years/dates, etc, but I think you got the basic idea: use the Color control too!).

You should try different Color values before or during you try to set up the CMS parameters in the advanced menu. (If colors get saturated too fast then you should probably lower it. But it's not a rule. And of course, you probably need to change the CMS settings after you change the Color. They all work together... just like you need to optimize you Contrast, Brightness and other gray-scale parameters first...)

This result I have would not be possible without finding the correct Color value! Any other (including the default) Color value wouldn't get me even close to this! Red, Green, Blue... they would all come out too fast or too slow from white and the secondaries would also be worse (in every aspects: saturation, huye, gamma, luminance, at every saturation levels).



I say this to you here because during the show, you sometimes go into the menus and it seemed to me (if I am not mistaken) that you worked with the default Color value on the Panasonics. (And without asking, I can't be sure if that was intentional and if so then why exactly...?) And I also saw that you got relatively bad (but overall "too slow" -> Too low Color value ???) saturation tracking charts.
So, I suggest you to try this sometime (if haven't already): use the Color parameter to get better saturation tracking behavior (if possible, of course).

Sorry if you already knew and actually did this. I haven't calibrated a VT60 yet. (However, I did calibrate an ST60 and it was indeed "messy". But that's a cheaper model with an over-utilized old chipset...)

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #26 of 27 Old 06-10-2013, 09:50 AM
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Anyone get the calibration reports and can send me a copy? I can't get the link on the value electronics page to work.
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post #27 of 27 Old 10-25-2013, 06:56 PM
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(sorry to bump the bejeebers outta this thread but.....)

 

I've heard it mentioned before, but I'd love a shoot out where the brand names were impossible to determine (or not easily).  Posterboard or black foam core covering up the entire bezel or something.  Let's just see what happens when there is as little bias as possible.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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