Is DSE (Dirty Screen Effect) a fact of life, or should I keep returning until I don't see it... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Currently dealing with the 2013 Sony KDL-60R550A ($1750 price point, so not high end) and it's got a pronounced DSE on panning backgrounds.

I'm wondering if it's worth risking the other things that might go wrong if I get a replacement.

Have you typically found DSE on most of your LCD's and just did the return song-and-dance until you got one magically without?

Is "no DSE" even possible on mid-level sets? I'm looking for a stake in the sand.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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post #2 of 28 Old 05-16-2013, 10:55 AM
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I've had 3 lcd sets-an '05 26" Sharp, a '10 Sony EX710, and my current '12 LG. I never noticed dse on the Sharp. The Sony did have it (along with pretty severe flashlighting on the right side) and the LG has it too, but significantly less than the Sony did.
I would have returned the Sony but it was a freebie that was shipped to me by Sony to replace a green SXRD and I didn't want to deal with shipping etc. If I'd bought it locally it would have gone back, but more for the flashlighting than the dse. The LG was a keeper because my particular set has virtually no flashlighting or clouding and I don't see the dse enough to take a chance on a replacement being worse with regard to flashlighting.

About the only "perfect" tv I've owned was an '86 model Sony XBR Trinitron. I've returned a few over the years that I couldn't live with. What I have found is that if a set is otherwise satisfactory but I see one fairly minor defect that isn't very often visible in normal use I actually manage to quit seeing that defect after a few weeks or months. An example would be my first HDTV-an '01 model Hitachi Ultravision crt rp. I bought it based on my experience with an analog Hitachi I already owned. The new one had bad posterization on all but pristine HD signals and a nasty green tint at the low end of the grayscale. I returned it toward the end of my return window and got a Sony KP57HW40, which was a huge improvement. Then I read here about ghost lines at high contrast edges and started seeing it on my set. Drove me nuts until I started noticing that most all other sets in the stores had the same thing. After another few weeks I literally didn't see the ghosting any more and enjoyed 5 happy years with the set.
YMMV, good luck whatever you decide.

my take, based on what I read here and what I see on sets at work is that the most effective way to avoid the dse is to buy a plasma, but even a few individual samples of those can have the problem, and then there are other characteristic differences between plasma and led/lcd that may eliminate them from consideration for some people.

Anecdotally, prior to my current job I worked in a Toyota dealership service dept. for 35 years (1971-2006) and was the go-to guy for warranty repairs for nvh (rattles-squeaks) and interior trim problems. Vast improvements occurred in these cars over those 35 years, but the better they got the more tiny little noises that only occurred very rarely were complained about--in other words the better the product got the more little things bothered people.

I sorta giggle when people hold up those old crt sets as some kind of holy grail ignoring the lousy screen geometry and inconsistent color, high pitched whine from the power supply, etc.
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post #3 of 28 Old 05-20-2013, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

I sorta giggle when people hold up those old crt sets as some kind of holy grail ignoring the lousy screen geometry and inconsistent color, high pitched whine from the power supply, etc.

Yeah, but the Trini's were really a great idea that worked very very well. Whoda thunk....3 sub pixels, 3 guns, woo hoo....

In any case, I'm right in then @#$%ing cartoon thought bubble I was so hoping to avoid. "Do I return this thing and risk getting something worse?"

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post #4 of 28 Old 05-20-2013, 10:55 AM
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Agree (mostly) about the Trinitron sets, having owned 4 in succession. The last was a KV35XBR-48, circa '99 that had me in the service menu for hours trying to get it to display a straight line and I was mostly successful. What I remember most vividly about that set was the fact that when sold to a co-worker a few years later it took 3 football players to haul it out of the house and it pretty much collapsed the rear suspension on the Ford Explorer they loaded it into.wink.gif

My rule of thumb when contemplating a return is that if I decide I can't live with some aspect of a set's performance but it's otherwise pretty stellar I'll try one more of the same set--if the second one's also not acceptable I never go for a third of the same but look for some other make or model.

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post #5 of 28 Old 05-20-2013, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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HAHA!!!! I just tried to move a 32" CRT a couple weeks ago and realized that It's been more than a decade since I could move something like that.

I had to completely redesign the TV stand to have a 3rd pair of wheels directly under the center vertical board underneath the thing, and THEN I had to put an extra layer of carpet under the front 3 wheels to keep it from pushing down and forward in the carpet too much (the front of these beasts is where all the weight is). Aye yi yi.

"Those were the days...."

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post #6 of 28 Old 05-29-2013, 04:00 PM
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I've also had 2 Trinitrons good TV's for CRT sets. Now I have 2 LCD's and one Plasma . Of my 3 sets at least The plasma has the best overall picture quality it's a 2012 model but the other two are fairly new and real good as well .

The old NSTC analog color system was commonly called " Never The Same Color Twice" . Digital ATSC is much better . The Sony's were good but I really don't miss them
hard to compare NTSC to NSTC . Most decent modern TV's IMO really are better.

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post #7 of 28 Old 05-30-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

I've also had 2 Trinitrons good TV's for CRT sets. Now I have 2 LCD's and one Plasma . Of my 3 sets at least The plasma has the best overall picture quality it's a 2012 model but the other two are fairly new and real good as well .

The old NSTC analog color system was commonly called " Never The Same Color Twice".

I shudder at the weight of CRTs, but regarding the technology itself, I cut the era an enormous amount of slack.

Whether or not there was an NTSC stamp on it at any given time, given the nut they were trying to crack (transitioning from B&W, making that upward compatible(!), "fitting" it all with choma-subsampling, and doing it all in the analog domain(!!!!!)), I have the same reaction to busting on them as I do when people used to bust on the old phone system: I think we forget how big an accomplishment it really was and how hindsight adds ridicule.

I'm not saying you're doing that per se, but frankly as an engineer, I'm absolutely amazed it went as well as it did.

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post #8 of 28 Old 05-30-2013, 10:44 AM
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NTSC stood for National Television System Committee.

There actually was an earlier and very unwieldy semi-mechanical color system that predated it (promoted by CBS and tested in a few markets) that involved a color wheel similar in concept to the color wheel used in most dlp systems.

For those curious about how color all came about there's and excellent website

http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/

Having lived thru the transition I can say that it took a good 10-15 years for mfgs to come up with color sets that were not too fiddly for the average user. By the 80s/90s is was indeed amazing that a system set in stone in 1952-3 could be made to work as well as it did.

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post #9 of 28 Old 05-30-2013, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

NTSC stood for National Television System Committee.

There actually was an earlier and very unwieldy semi-mechanical color system that predated it (promoted by CBS and tested in a few markets) that involved a color wheel similar in concept to the color wheel used in most dlp systems.

For those curious about how color all came about there's and excellent website

http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/

Having lived thru the transition I can say that it took a good 10-15 years for mfgs to come up with color sets that were not too fiddly for the average user. By the 80s/90s is was indeed amazing that a system set in stone in 1952-3 could be made to work as well as it did.

That link reads as very pro-CBS/RCA, and very anti-FCC, IMO. But as I recall it, the CBS (and later CBS/RCA) attempts to establish color were enormously bandwidth hungry. The accepted standard was able to "fit", although grotesquely from our current standards, and truly was amazing. I don't believe CBS even attempted a backward compatibility to B&W, did they? Yes, CBS had some very forward thinking folks back then, but the FCC had a terrible problem to solve.

Regardless though, either way, LONG BEFORE the 80s/90s you mention (not that I'm in any way countering your assertion), the NTSC/FCC accepted color mechanism was truly a tower of achievement given all it had to accomplish. I first got into the details of this black and white hooey in a kind of absurdly backward way: I was part of a startup company that developed a PostScript clone....and realized that the conversion from color to black and white was not what Adobe had documented, but was good old YIQ. FASCINATING looking back at all history. Thanks for that link.

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post #10 of 28 Old 05-30-2013, 02:29 PM
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The last of those Sony CRTs really were spectacular. I remember seeing a widescreen model about the time CRT was on the way out and it was breathtaking. Shame.

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post #11 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 10:18 AM
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CRT WAS EXCELLENT PQ WISE. I still have mine. However, if I could sell it for a dollar a pound I might be tempted. All that glass weighs a ton!
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post #12 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

That link reads as very pro-CBS/RCA, and very anti-FCC, IMO. But as I recall it, the CBS (and later CBS/RCA) attempts to establish color were enormously bandwidth hungry. The accepted standard was able to "fit", although grotesquely from our current standards, and truly was amazing. I don't believe CBS even attempted a backward compatibility to B&W, did they? Yes, CBS had some very forward thinking folks back then, but the FCC had a terrible problem to solve.

Regardless though, either way, LONG BEFORE the 80s/90s you mention (not that I'm in any way countering your assertion), the NTSC/FCC accepted color mechanism was truly a tower of achievement given all it had to accomplish. I first got into the details of this black and white hooey in a kind of absurdly backward way: I was part of a startup company that developed a PostScript clone....and realized that the conversion from color to black and white was not what Adobe had documented, but was good old YIQ. FASCINATING looking back at all history. Thanks for that link.

Oh, they had it pretty good by the late 60s, actually. With analog ntsc color the fine-tuning of the signal was crucial, and prior to the advent of AFT (automatic fine tuning) around '68 one had to really twiddle that fine-tuning ring to get things right. By the 80s the mechanical tuners were eliminated so fine-tuning was no longer a problem. My Dad held off on color until 1968, when AFT was common, and that Danish Modern 21" RCA console was pretty decent--but still no remote, separate tuner knobs for UHF and VHF, and a couple or three secondary adjustment knobs.

Your are correct, CBS never attempted "compatible color". RCA and a couple of other companies introduced color in 1953, with initially 16" round tube sets, these are collectors items now.

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post #13 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 10:41 AM
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^^^^ I remember those! My parents replaced the old B&W with an RCA color console about the same time. Having grown up with B&W, the switch to color was about as dramatic as the switch from SD to HD is today.
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post #14 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ I remember those! My parents replaced the old B&W with an RCA color console about the same time. Having grown up with B&W, the switch to color was about as dramatic as the switch from SD to HD is today.

I'm guessing a tad more.

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post #15 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 01:03 PM
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I'm guessing a tad more.

Anything with color back in the 60's was dramatic wink.gif
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post #16 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 02:21 PM
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Anything with color back in the 60's was dramatic wink.gif
Yup!
They sold a lot of those cellophane masks to put on your B&W TV to imitate color (blue on the top, green on the bottom). Everyone wanted to see Bonanza "in color".
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post #17 of 28 Old 05-31-2013, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a picture of my 2013 Sony KDL-60R550A. I'm all of a sudden "stuck" again about what to do.

Quick points:
  • Two photos: The screen, and then the screen with me identifying the blobs just to be sure. A camera is not ideal for this in the middle of the day, though it's painfully obvious in real life. And much more so at night. But "regular non-panning multi-colored content" doesn't show it. As soon as the camera pans, you can get various hints of it or have it SLAP you in the face, depending.
  • I was typing "bright white" into the TV browser's URL entry hoping for a default google search. Nope. However, the error screen produced enough of a white to show the problem.
  • Ignore the horizontal banding evident----I think I caused that with one of my "advanced" settings that squashed the number of shades. Dunno.






What do you think? Send it back? I'm afraid of risking getting a worse one. :-/

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post #18 of 28 Old 06-01-2013, 06:21 AM
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I could not live with it that bad. Good lucksmile.gif

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post #19 of 28 Old 06-01-2013, 12:03 PM
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Read in the 550 thread that you're returning it, I would have too. Keeping my fingers crossed that the next one's ok.

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post #20 of 28 Old 06-01-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Read in the 550 thread that you're returning it, I would have too. Keeping my fingers crossed that the next one's ok.

Great, thanks. I feel fairly cursed with products as it is. I have terrible product karma.

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post #21 of 28 Old 09-11-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Read in the 550 thread that you're returning it, I would have too. Keeping my fingers crossed that the next one's ok.

Great, thanks. I feel fairly cursed with products as it is. I have terrible product karma.

 

I forgot to update this thread: My 2nd set came in just fine!  Some of us are speculating that this happens primarily with the 60" version of the R550A.


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post #22 of 28 Old 09-12-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I shudder at the weight of CRTs, but regarding the technology itself, I cut the era an enormous amount of slack.

Whether or not there was an NTSC stamp on it at any given time, given the nut they were trying to crack (transitioning from B&W, making that upward compatible(!), "fitting" it all with choma-subsampling, and doing it all in the analog domain(!!!!!)), I have the same reaction to busting on them as I do when people used to bust on the old phone system: I think we forget how big an accomplishment it really was and how hindsight adds ridicule.

I'm not saying you're doing that per se, but frankly as an engineer, I'm absolutely amazed it went as well as it did.

I grew up with black white as a youngster anyway . We we got our first color set in late 1962 a monster Curtis Mathes 21" roundie Combo I was 10 at the time it had an RCA CTC 12 chassis
it was fiddly there wasn't a lot of color on till the ~ mid 60's

I really enjoyed the Sony CRT sets I had for many years, before that I had a ~ 1979 or 1980 Magnavox
It went through a CRT and digital tuner then the HV module went bezerk and arc welded through the CRT neck not the best set I ever had . Before that I had an early 70's RCA lot more reliable than the Magnavox but the Maggie had a better picture I think it had a Sylvania striped phosphor CRT in it .

I remember the transition B/W to color was a big deal. and akll th younsters wanted to see the wonderful worl of Disney and Bonanza in color.

I also had a 19" Toshiba CRT ser for about 12 yrs without any problems thats why one of my new sets this year is a Toshiba . aside from the good picture . Interesting prospective from an engineers standpoint you have there sems like you are well informed .

I know RCA and others worked long and hard on compatible color TV and others worked on CBS system . here are some good You Tube low res historical video links
The History channel (Modern Marvels I think had a good episode on TV history from the Baird mechanical /Farnsworth electronic systems up to modern times that was amazing .Farsworth was drawing pictures of an electronic I guess CRT tube of some sort while in high school.
It used to be on Netflix I had it permanently in my list but it seems to be gone and not on Netflix or Y tube anyway here are the links for the RCA

propaganda and other historical TV documentary. I remember growing up and RCA was everywhere .They had a remarkable history as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhqtByYjmPY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhqtByYjmPY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2si4pop4kDE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojJCJIaDp9Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbVZ6Ow8CXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkAMZ8mrrVk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkAMZ8mrrVk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=U4hPX_PLC-o

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post #23 of 28 Old 09-13-2013, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I forgot to update this thread: My 2nd set came in just fine!  Some of us are speculating that this happens primarily with the 60" version of the R550A.

I had two 60r550a one had the three blobs just like yours and the next one just one big blob in the middle so I returned both. Overall I thought the 50r550a was a decent television for the money though the video processing didn't seem as good as my previous ex720 but the blobs made it unbearable. So the new set you got that's problem free is it a 60" also?
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post #24 of 28 Old 09-13-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I forgot to update this thread: My 2nd set came in just fine!  Some of us are speculating that this happens primarily with the 60" version of the R550A.

I had two 60r550a one had the three blobs just like yours and the next one just one big blob in the middle so I returned both. Overall I thought the 50r550a was a decent television for the money though the video processing didn't seem as good as my previous ex720 but the blobs made it unbearable. So the new set you got that's problem free is it a 60" also?

 

Yep!  Completely blob free, as if from a different manufacturer.  I have a suspicion that it was related to a very early manufacturing rev of some particular supplier (note: a model is not required by any means to have the same supplier across sizes or even within one size---The 70" is a new beast as well.)

 

If you're a believer of serial numbers, then my good one starts with a 6, and the first bad one with a 4.  Perhaps that's the problem?

 

The blobs scare me though: how many technology-ignorant people just live with it not knowing to return it?  I really find that uncharacteristic of Sony to release something like that.  A base level QA would have exposed it, and though I don't have "blind brand loyalty", I always seen Sony's cost more than average and be worth it for not having stupid errors like that at all.  I have a mini-theory: maybe it's something that happens during shipping for that particular rev & supplier: the LCD array and light guides end up pressing against each other?


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post #25 of 28 Old 09-14-2013, 08:16 AM
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All of the nostalgic TV talk in this thread reminded me of this resource: http://www.earlytelevision.org/index.html. Lots of cool stuff to see online and in person.
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post #26 of 28 Old 09-14-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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All of the nostalgic TV talk in this thread reminded me of this resource: http://www.earlytelevision.org/index.html. Lots of cool stuff to see online and in person.

 

Try not to laugh at these though.  To actually send a picture through the air was an amazing accomplishment relative to the time period.  Imagine: 2D from basically a long 1D line.  And it all worked.


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post #27 of 28 Old 01-10-2014, 08:45 AM
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Got the Sony KDL-70-R520 at Costco 2 days ago. The manufacture date was Dec 2103. It had the same blob right smack in the center. Watching LOR and noticed it in the snowy mountain scenes. Switched to Direct TV and any solid light or white background revealed it terribly. Happy after tweaking with pic quality-but can't live with this BLOB thing. I have two KDL-NX720's <55' and 46">(love them both) and don't have it on either, so I'm refusing to believe it's a Sony problem. That being said if it's a serial number production thing, it isn't over since this one was manufactured in Dec 2013. Returning tonight, but I'm not real happy thinking if they are from the same run, I am going to get the same blob with a different shape. Brother has the Samsung 75 unf 6300 (flashlighting and uneven blue screen madness) and I have fiddled endlessly with that trying to get pic quality (movies) to reach what I achieved in a day on this Sony-so not wanting to go that route. Maybe try a different Costco and hope they came from a different run?-any suggestions? I came from a 50" Pioneer Elite Plasma-that I sold with my last home, so I'm used to great PQ (and the NX series has satisfied me) but can't settle for anything less than 70" in my new house viewing scheme. Spending cap is around $2500 so can't just "jump up to anything". Am I doomed to settle?eek.gif

TV-Sony KDL70R520
Onkyo TS-RX 707 (Yes one that still lives)
Sony Bluray-BDP-S3100
Fronts-Vienna Bach
Center, sides and rears-Vienna Waltz
Sub-Martin Logan Dynamo 700 Wireless
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-12-2014, 08:22 AM
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I purchased a Sony kdl50r450 about 2 months ago. It have small flashlights on both lower corners, but black levels are really good. I haven't notice any dse nor blobs yet. I cant ask for more for $500.
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