Official Sony [X9] XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A Owner's Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

It might not necessarily qualify to some as a "thorough review" but the FP did compete in the VE Shootout and was rigorously calibrated by some of the best calibrators in the world (D-Nice, David McKenzie and Kevin Miller) and performed somewhat well. They tested all major factors in PQ and the Sony scored about 7's across the board. It was rated as the 2nd best LED/LCD at the show (the Samsung F8000 was ranked 1st.) Now obviously the X900 has that one spec. the F8000 doesn't wink.gif but for all 'major' PQ factors the Sony is a very solid performer and one that shouldn't be sneezed at, but still has some room to improve.

So......we all know that Plasmas always win the display quality contests. The problem is - nobody asks under what conditions and how relevant are they to the way most of us watch TV. Are they all calibrated to the same lumens, ISF calibrated, gizmo processing turned off, viewed in a dim room, etc. etc. etc.??? Another words, are LCD's display strengths lowered to plasma levels before comparison?

I have several friends with Plasmas and have never remotely envied the picture quality (and that includes a 55" Kuro!) or wished that my LCD looked that good!! Never once did I consider any of my better LCD sets to have an inferior picture to the plasmas. I would bet a fair amount of coin that if you marched 10 average people into a room with a plasma and a good quality LCD, and they were both set up by knowledgeable hobbyists, that the majority of them would likely pick the LCD set due to its brighter, bolder, whiter, well saturated picture.

The drawbacks to LCD's have been well documented over the past several years and most agree now that pixel response is more than adequate to keep up with the vast majority of content. Off angle viewing contrast is legitimate but not a real concern for most people like myself who always watch the TV straight on. Black level is more than adequate with most sets if watched with a bit of ambient light. I find the black level to be quite satisfying with my 80-632U Sharp, and significantly BETTER than my last few movie outings (E.g. - Star Trek and Man of Steel). Clouds and flash-lighting are, to me, the only real concerns with some of today's LCD sets. In this regard, my 80" Sharp is PERFECT! It's also full array LED backlit as opposed to edge lit, where the lighting is much harder to control.

If I really was super impressed with Plasmas, I would have bought one or more by now. Instead I'm on my 11th LCD and will keep my 80 Incher until I get a 2nd or 3rd gen 4K set in a year or two.
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post #362 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by billdag View Post

So......we all know that Plasmas always win the display quality contests. The problem is - nobody asks under what conditions and how relevant are they to the way most of us watch TV. Are they all calibrated to the same lumens, ISF calibrated, gizmo processing turned off, viewed in a dim room, etc. etc. etc.??? Another words, are LCD's display strengths lowered to plasma levels before comparison?...

This issue has been exhausted on the threads. But your analysis is spot on. An LCD doesn't stand a chance with the plasma bias, and it should be said that for whatever reasons Sony is very begrudgingly given credit for it's strengths.
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post #363 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 02:10 PM
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This issue has been exhausted on the threads. But your analysis is spot on. An LCD doesn't stand a chance with the plasma bias, and it should be said that for whatever reasons Sony is very begrudgingly given credit for it's strengths.

My intention wasn't to spark an LCD vs PDP debate. My intention was merely to point out that some of the most respected and knowledgeable people in the AVS world "reviewed" this FP and found that it was right around middle of the pack at the VE Shootout. That doesn't make it a bad FP, and I even stated in my original post that it's a really solid option.
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post #364 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quick question - is there some sort of calibration for the 3D settings? The only reason I ask is because I picked up the LG 55LA7400 for my bedroom and its passive 3D looks must better than my 65" 4k downstairs. The Sony has a good deal of crosstalk and double imaging at times. Have I missed something in setting it up?
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post #365 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

My intention wasn't to spark an LCD vs PDP debate. My intention was merely to point out that some of the most respected and knowledgeable people in the AVS world "reviewed" this FP and found that it was right around middle of the pack at the VE Shootout. That doesn't make it a bad FP, and I even stated in my original post that it's a really solid option.
No - I know. It's just something that's been bugging me for a while and this seemed to be a good time to get my two bits in. I've been a videophile for about 30 Yrs. and although I do respect most experts opinions, I don't always agree with them.
My favorite reviewer ever, was Julian Hirsch (RIP) from Stereo Review (now Sound and Vision). He was a very strong believer in DOUBLE BLIND testing. It was amazing how often the professional opinions did not not jive when they were subjected to double blind testing.
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post #366 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by saxguy View Post

Quick question - is there some sort of calibration for the 3D settings? The only reason I ask is because I picked up the LG 55LA7400 for my bedroom and its passive 3D looks must better than my 65" 4k downstairs. The Sony has a good deal of crosstalk and double imaging at times. Have I missed something in setting it up?

Possibly either "3D Depth Adjustment" or "3D Simulated Effect" is set too high?
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post #367 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by billdag View Post

No - I know. It's just something that's been bugging me for a while and this seemed to be a good time to get my two bits in. I've been a videophile for about 30 Yrs. and although I do respect most experts opinions, I don't always agree with them.
My favorite reviewer ever, was Julian Hirsch (RIP) from Stereo Review (now Sound and Vision). He was a very strong believer in DOUBLE BLIND testing. It was amazing how often the professional opinions did not not jive when they were subjected to double blind testing.

So do you believe then that the X900A is the best FP of 2013? Topping the ZT60, VT60, F8000, F8500? Just an honest opinion question.

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post #368 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

So do you believe then that the X900A is the best FP of 2013? Topping the ZT60, VT60, F8000, F8500? Just an honest opinion question.

Most obviously no. Ive seen these side by side in the store and had time to calibrate both to my likings. As usual, plasma (VT60) wins.
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post #369 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by saxguy View Post

Quick question - is there some sort of calibration for the 3D settings? The only reason I ask is because I picked up the LG 55LA7400 for my bedroom and its passive 3D looks must better than my 65" 4k downstairs. The Sony has a good deal of crosstalk and double imaging at times. Have I missed something in setting it up?

You shouldn't be seeing any crosstalk on a passive set if you are viewing from eye level. If you mounted your 65" too high on the wall (in the inexplicably popular above the fireplace type area, for example) and are looking "up" to see it, that's your problem. For passive, you need to be looking at your set at eye level from a seated position, which IMHO, is the way for 2-D or 3-D. If you are watching at eye level, or even close to it, then something else is wrong.
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post #370 of 11355 Old 06-26-2013, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post

You shouldn't be seeing any crosstalk on a passive set if you are viewing from eye level. If you mounted your 65" too high on the wall (in the inexplicably popular above the fireplace type area, for example) and are looking "up" to see it, that's your problem. For passive, you need to be looking at your set at eye level from a seated position, which IMHO, is the way for 2-D or 3-D. If you are watching at eye level, or even close to it, then something else is wrong.

Crosstalk still happens with passive. It isn't immune to the issue. Every 3D display technology suffers from it. Passive, active, and glasses free.
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post #371 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vaxick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post

You shouldn't be seeing any crosstalk on a passive set if you are viewing from eye level. If you mounted your 65" too high on the wall (in the inexplicably popular above the fireplace type area, for example) and are looking "up" to see it, that's your problem. For passive, you need to be looking at your set at eye level from a seated position, which IMHO, is the way for 2-D or 3-D. If you are watching at eye level, or even close to it, then something else is wrong.

Crosstalk still happens with passive. It isn't immune to the issue. Every 3D display technology suffers from it. Passive, active, and glasses free.

 

No, I disagree totally.  With passive, if you're at eye level (I assume he means something like "middle of the screen height"), you will *NOT* get R information "leaking" into the L eye, nor L information "leaking" into the R eye.  That is crosstalk, and you just won't get it.  At least, I've NEVER seen it and I've been scrutinizing my R550A (several models lower than your X900A) since I got it.

 

There is no way for that to happen unless the FPR is misaligned (an immediate return situation, or the glasses aren't a pure circular polarization filter----something I've never heard happening).

 

It's theoretically possible for a super bright Left eye light to be SO bright that it pushes through the Right filter a small amount, but that doesn't happen in real life.  And even if it did, you're likely in a scene where both eyes are supposed to get super bright information.

 

The X900A is super sensitive to vertical height however.  If you're too high or too low, you WILL experience crosstalk.  I'm speculating that this is because the film is position too high above (too far away from) the LCD array given the higher resolution, but I don't know.

 

People will sometimes confuse the double imaging you can sometimes get on some objects with crosstalk, but that's a problem with your eyes trying to deal with a kind of excess convergence.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #372 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 05:47 AM
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I've had the 65" for two weeks now, and while I am impressed with overall picture appearance, I'm adjusting the settings a lot more frequently that I'd ever done with my prior Sony plasma.

My preference runs to a deeper, darker picture, keeping the color at a moderate level. Reds continue to be a bit too hot even when other colors are acceptable. I haven't figured out "ultra fine settings" yet. Watching live Stanley Cup hockey finals was a pleasure, sharpest, crispest picture I've ever seen (1080i cable feed.)

Live network news programs (NBC and ABC) need modest adjustment to correct caucasian skin color away from slightly pink.

Quality of programs on premium cable channels (HBO, Showtime, Starz) generally looks very good, but "Magic City" looked grainy and soft from recording on my DVR. Interesting that the same program from Starz On Demand looked a bit better, but not significant.

What I'm realizing is that this television is not "set it and forget it."

previous set 50" XBR plasma which was replaced by this 4K and 46" XBR5
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post #373 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post

You shouldn't be seeing any crosstalk on a passive set if you are viewing from eye level. If you mounted your 65" too high on the wall (in the inexplicably popular above the fireplace type area, for example) and are looking "up" to see it, that's your problem. For passive, you need to be looking at your set at eye level from a seated position, which IMHO, is the way for 2-D or 3-D. If you are watching at eye level, or even close to it, then something else is wrong.

Maybe it's not crosstalk - I can see ghosting of images. It is very apparent on the opening credits of some program material where I can clearly see two identical sets of words. Pop-out types of effects also result in visible split images.
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post #374 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 07:43 AM
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BTW, I'm sitting at eye level. Maybe the set is slightly higher, but it's on a console and I'm on a couch.
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post #375 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 07:46 AM
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The bit about the height of the set is a little disconcerting. I'm seriously thinking about the 55" but it's got to go on the wall, and I don't want to buy a set just for its 3D prowess only to nobble it because I'm not looking at it properly. Would a tilting bracket help, I wonder?
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post #376 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 08:30 AM
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A tilting bracket could help, yes, but it is not ideal. For 3-D, you will want the set directly in front of you when you are in a seated position. For passive, this is a must; for active, it's also going to give you a better experience. If you don't want to use a stand, you could still mount your set to the wall at seated position eye level. Many people opt for the sports bar look and end up having to stare up at the near the ceiling of a room to see their set. It would drive me crazy, a literal pain in the neck. Even my parents are guilty of this; they have a 37" (LOL) set mounted above the fireplace and I can't stand to watch anything there.
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post #377 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 09:09 AM
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I wish I could mount it at eye level but there's a mantelpiece and fireplace in the way. I would put it on a stand in front of the fireplace like my current 55HX823 but the 55X is just too wide for that, 'cause I don't have a heck of a lot of space to play with. My 21:9 TV was up there before and it wasn't too high so I'd have no qualms about putting the Sony 4K in the same place, it's just the issue of the 3D viewing angle that's the problem.

I'll have to do some more experimenting with the 55.
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post #378 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 10:00 AM
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There has been a very nice price drop on the 84 and 65" sets at Cleveland Plasma. the 84" is in single digits now. I'm trying to figure out where to place my money.
The LG 84LM9600 had a price drop, no Sony price drops frown.gif
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post #379 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 10:36 AM
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The LG 84LM9600 had a price drop, no Sony price drops frown.gif

When I click the link in your post for the "65x900a blowout" there is a reduced price. Is that price valid at this time?
https://clevelandplasma.com/store/lcd_led_tv_s/sony
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post #380 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 10:39 AM
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So do you believe then that the X900A is the best FP of 2013? Topping the ZT60, VT60, F8000, F8500? Just an honest opinion question.
No - that's not what I said. I had 2 good long looks at the 65x900a at BB running the 20 Min loop from the server. I was VERY impressed overall with the picture quality. The bold pure colors especially impressed me.
I have not sat down and done a critical evaluation comparing the very fine Panasonic plasmas compared to top line LCD's. What I have done is watch lengthy TV programming and movies on both at different times and all I can say so far, is that if plasmas have this built in display superiority I would think that I should have noticed it over the past couple of years.
What I also can say is that a number of times (65x900a included) I went WOW!!! when I first saw the picture quality. I have NEVER done that with a plasma. They just don't seem to be able to present that WOW picture that pops out at you. Now, purists may say "That is not accurate" and they may be right BUT it is the kind of picture that impresses people - myself included. And yes.......I do have the good sense to spend considerable time setting up my sets when I get them home. Even after that, I just love the way the pure whites look. After all these years and 11 sets they still impress me. I have never seen that on a plasma.
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post #381 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 10:55 AM
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Hi, great info. thanks. I'm considering this tv but i have a few questions:

1. How does the 65" compare to the Pioneer elite kuro 60"?
2. HDMI 2.0. but that has been discussed already
3. 802.11ac. anyone given thought on how this tv will work with the new wi-fi standard?

Thanks.
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post #382 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 11:53 AM
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When I click the link in your post for the "65x900a blowout" there is a reduced price. Is that price valid at this time?
https://clevelandplasma.com/store/lcd_led_tv_s/sony

A friend of mine ordered 65" today for $5577 at alltimetvs.com
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post #383 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 11:58 AM
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No - that's not what I said. I had 2 good long looks at the 65x900a at BB running the 20 Min loop from the server. I was VERY impressed overall with the picture quality. The bold pure colors especially impressed me.
I have not sat down and done a critical evaluation comparing the very fine Panasonic plasmas compared to top line LCD's. What I have done is watch lengthy TV programming and movies on both at different times and all I can say so far, is that if plasmas have this built in display superiority I would think that I should have noticed it over the past couple of years.
What I also can say is that a number of times (65x900a included) I went WOW!!! when I first saw the picture quality. I have NEVER done that with a plasma. They just don't seem to be able to present that WOW picture that pops out at you. Now, purists may say "That is not accurate" and they may be right BUT it is the kind of picture that impresses people - myself included. And yes.......I do have the good sense to spend considerable time setting up my sets when I get them home. Even after that, I just love the way the pure whites look. After all these years and 11 sets they still impress me. I have never seen that on a plasma.

If you have not had that "wow" effect from a plasma then you have not had one home in a dark room. Plasma is superior in raw picture quality. Not that there arent crappy plasmas out there, but even the 720p insignia plasma at bestbuy throws a better picture then the 1080p lcd sets next to it. Of course, viewing an LCD next to a plasma in a bright room is no contest. Plasmas are inherently dim by nature (with the exception of the F8500), and you will always be attracted to a brighter picture. That is why stores set all their sets to torch mode. Are plasmas better then other technologies? No. All technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. Plasmas strength is contrast and black level, which in general more contrast gives you more depth. I do agree that having those bright whites on an LCD is nice, but in a dark viewing environment nothing beats the true black of a plasma.
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post #384 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 03:01 PM
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If you have not had that "wow" effect from a plasma then you have not had one home in a dark room. Plasma is superior in raw picture quality. Not that there arent crappy plasmas out there, but even the 720p insignia plasma at bestbuy throws a better picture then the 1080p lcd sets next to it. Of course, viewing an LCD next to a plasma in a bright room is no contest. Plasmas are inherently dim by nature (with the exception of the F8500), and you will always be attracted to a brighter picture. That is why stores set all their sets to torch mode. Are plasmas better then other technologies? No. All technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. Plasmas strength is contrast and black level, which in general more contrast gives you more depth. I do agree that having those bright whites on an LCD is nice, but in a dark viewing environment nothing beats the true black of a plasma.
Good points - and I don't disagree (except maybe the cheapie Insignia 720), but after living with 2 projectors including the great Epson 1080UB I quickly got tired of having to watch in a dark or very dim room. It seems funny to me, but not surprising, that everyone seems to home in on the superb black levels on some plasma sets. It's not really such a big deal to most people. My 3,000 to 1 true contrast is very satisfying to me when watching my LCD set at home. During the daytime, in fact, the black levels are PERFECT. Not a trace of light emanating from the black scenes. From my experience, plasma sets tend to look pretty mediocre in a room with a fair amount of light. I would guess that a lot of people don't have the ability to control ambient light to a great degree during the day when a lot of people watch TV.
So, all in all - to each their own but I do prefer LCDs and would even go so far as to say that I have a better viewing experience at home than at a typical movie theatre (IMAX excluded) brightness, color saturation, clarity and black level included.
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post #385 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 04:01 PM
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I have to agree about cinema black levels, they really are pretty damned mediocre. I'm not talking about the local fleapit either, but rather a nearby multiplex outfitted with Sony 4K projectors, plus the BFI IMAX in the middle of London. In a backwards-ass way I'm basically saying that plasma lovers can keep their amazing blacks because I still get better-than-cinema renditions of darkness on my LCD. Besides, I feel that plasma has other issues which detract from the experience, which to me outweigh LCD's inherent flaws.
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post #386 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

If you have not had that "wow" effect from a plasma then you have not had one home in a dark room. Plasma is superior in raw picture quality. Not that there arent crappy plasmas out there, but even the 720p insignia plasma at bestbuy throws a better picture then the 1080p lcd sets next to it. Of course, viewing an LCD next to a plasma in a bright room is no contest. Plasmas are inherently dim by nature (with the exception of the F8500), and you will always be attracted to a brighter picture. That is why stores set all their sets to torch mode. Are plasmas better then other technologies? No. All technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. Plasmas strength is contrast and black level, which in general more contrast gives you more depth. I do agree that having those bright whites on an LCD is nice, but in a dark viewing environment nothing beats the true black of a plasma.

A couple years ago I purchased a flagship plasma and placed it directly next to the Sony XBR8 for unbiased side-by-side comparison. The newer plasma picture looked flat, soft and washed out next to the XBR (backlight set to minimum). And the plasma black level looked more dark gray compared to the XBR's "black hole" black level. The "plasma is better" mantra is a myth.
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post #387 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

A couple years ago I purchased a flagship plasma and placed it directly next to the Sony XBR8 for unbiased side-by-side comparison. The newer plasma picture looked flat, soft and washed out next to the XBR (backlight set to minimum). And the plasma black level looked more dark gray compared to the XBR's "black hole" black level. The "plasma is better" mantra is a myth.

Quite a few people would disagree with the notion that the "plasma is better" mantra is myth, but regardless, to each his own. Both technologies have their pros and cons and ultimately it's the end user's decision to choose which technology to adopt. My comments were not intended to push the thread off topic, so I apologize. Hopefully some current and prospective owners can chime in with thoughts and this thread will continue to be a fun one to monitor and participate in.

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post #388 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 06:11 PM
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post #389 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

A couple years ago I purchased a flagship plasma and placed it directly next to the Sony XBR8 for unbiased side-by-side comparison. The newer plasma picture looked flat, soft and washed out next to the XBR (backlight set to minimum). And the plasma black level looked more dark gray compared to the XBR's "black hole" black level. The "plasma is better" mantra is a myth.

Just out of curiosity, which flagship plasma was this? The XBR8 was a fantastic set, but as I recall didn't walk all over the plasma sets of its' day.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #390 of 11355 Old 06-27-2013, 06:15 PM
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Just had my 65 calibrated. I'll try and post settings tomorrow.
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