Official Sony [X9] XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A Owner's Thread - Page 166 - AVS Forum
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post #4951 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

For clarification, Geoff, if RC is set to Auto, does it override the manual resolution slider and pick a value that the algorithm thinks is "optimal"?  In other words, do you recommend keeping the RC setting to Manual?

I keep the noise slider at zero and resolution at 8 in manual RC control. If you put RC on auto then it sets both of those things how it wants to, which induces obvious sharpening artefacts around edges and generally gives the image a more 'processed' look. So yeah, I keep it on manual.
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post #4952 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post


I keep the noise slider at zero and resolution at 8 in manual RC control. If you put RC on auto then it sets both of those things how it wants to, which induces obvious sharpening artefacts around edges and generally gives the image a more 'processed' look. So yeah, I keep it on manual.

 

Thanks, Geoff.  I have updated my settings page with this useful information!

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post #4953 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 10:49 AM
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From the latest email ad from Sony, looks like our XBR65X900A is holding onto the $4,999.95 pricing, but no longer with a free 4K Media Server ($699)
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post #4954 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

I've been fiddling with the RC Resolution slider since the day I got the TV in July, and I can assure you it was doing something to the picture then, just as it is now, which is rolling off very high frequency noise. I tested it with S&M 2nd edition and found that a setting of 8 provided the least amount of artefacts in the scaling/sharpness test patterns, and when I rechecked it again a few weeks ago there was no change, 8 was still the optimum setting,

Interesting post. Only after the most recent update did my set allow me to turn the "RC" on, off or adjust it; except for a feed from the BD player. It now is available for all my inputs. I think I 'see" that.

I'm sure "8" is the correct RC setting for resolution, my observation was only that the artifacts explode into prominence at 10. (And really just wondering, wouldn't RC "resolution" be boosting high frequency content and "noise reduction" rolling it off? In any case noise = 0 seems right to me too...)

In the process of fiddling all this and productive input from Lee, Jerry and Geoff, I spent $20 for an indoor antenna and now get football that doesn't look like hell (DTV crushes the NOLA fox affiliate), and HBO VOD now looks fab.

It's great to have an sensible interaction on a forum.

Thanks!


--Just running my mouth here---

I'm starting to have a new opinion on those changes: The settings that I feel must have changed with the SW update a few weeks ago are "Reality Creation" being under my control now, Motion Flow, and "black corrector".

1) Motion Flow = Clear was changed giving a veiled look. My reset set MF to a better setting than the Consumer Report recommended value (clear) that I was using. Alternatively, now that RC is on for inputs I watch, and motion is interacting with that...
2) black corrector changed to a stronger gamma as a function of Luma, which reduced my perception of the sidelight artifacts by dimming the screen overall for dark images, however the sidelight is still there. your mileage may vary.
3) Reality Creation is now doing it's job of tweaking the scaler where I spend essentially all my time (HBO and Netflix) which may also be making my PQ mo' better!

4) Unrelated but in the process of chatting with y'all, I learned just how bad DTV is. I know this but didn't really understand it :-) So don't watch games available OTA on DTV, (and nothing else on OTA worth watching). But I lose my DVR doing this...
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post #4955 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post



4) Unrelated but in the process of chatting with y'all, I learned just how bad DTV is. I know this but didn't really understand it :-) So don't watch games available OTA on DTV, (and nothing else on OTA worth watching). But I lose my DVR doing this...

 

Why do you lose your DVR?  The DTV AM21 OTA tuner (available from SolidSignal for $59.99) hooks into the DVR and allows you to record OTA broadcasts.  Being able to skip over the commercials alone should be worth $59.99, no?

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post #4956 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Why do you lose your DVR?  The DTV AM21 OTA tuner (available from SolidSignal for $59.99) hooks into the DVR and allows you to record OTA broadcasts.  Being able to skip over the commercials alone should be worth $59.99, no?

Excellent point. I didn't grok that it was a DTV accessory and was thinking it was going to be another input. I'll be ordering one of those today. Thanks!
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post #4957 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post

Interesting post. Only after the most recent update did my set allow me to turn the "RC" on, off or adjust it; except for a feed from the BD player. It now is available for all my inputs. I think I 'see" that.

I'm sure "8" is the correct RC setting for resolution, my observation was only that the artifacts explode into prominence at 10. (And really just wondering, wouldn't RC "resolution" be boosting high frequency content and "noise reduction" rolling it off? In any case noise = 0 seems right to me too...)

I know it seems odd that the 'Resolution' slider is rolling off random HF detail while the 'Noise' slider seems to be doing, um, something else. But it makes sense when you realise that upscalers generally need the image to be as clean and noise-free as possible in order to work at peak efficiency, not least when you're turning 2 million pixels into 4 times as many. So, the Resolution slider appears to work by isolating actual picture detail from noise/grain, adding extra sharpening the more that you push the slider, and I've got to say that on a low setting it works absolutely brilliantly.

I hate DNR on Blu-rays, hate it with a passion, and yet here I am advocating what is essentially a noise reduction system! The difference is that the Reality Creation (carefully managed, natch) works with almost surgical precision, toning down the highest frequency noise without making the picture look false or plasticky, nor does it induce smearing or other temporal artefacts. I watched In The Heat Of The Night the other day, and it's a sub-par transfer that's suffocated by a layer of distracting digital fuzz, but the RC settings made it vaguely watchable because I could dial out the worst of the noise with the push of a button.

Make no mistake, the processing inside these X9 sets is world class.
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post #4958 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 01:36 PM
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I have for quite some time been searching for the right setting for Motionflow. I have finally located test patterns on the Spears&Munsil ver 2 Blu-ray that provide some insight on how this control works.

If you have this excellent disk, navigate to the Video Processing section, and then to the Motion sub-menu. This section contains three motion tests, called Stock Ticker, xXx Parade, and Sarah on a Hammock (really). Each test has three modes, 24p, 30p and 60p. Of the three, 24p exhibits the most motion artifacts and seems to be the torture test for the MotionFlow control.

I have been running MotionControl in the "True Cinema" setting--don't know exactly why, but I think a reviewer said he like this setting best. Using the S&M tests, I experimented with several other MotionFlow settings, and the ability of various settings to "tame" the motion in the tests was quite telling. I finally focused on four settings, with these results:

"Off" - The moving test images were painful to watch, with lots of jerkiness and stuttering
"True Cinema" - A very minor improvement, still with a lot of unpleasant stuttering (why have I been using this one?)
"Standard" - Significant improvement, almost perfect, but not quite...
"Smooth" - Uncanny improvement, almost all motion artifacts completely gone (wow!)

So, now for some extended viewing tests. For the time being, I am going to try "Standard", only because the "Smooth" setting has the reputation of resulting in the "soap opera effect". I'll report my impressions in a couple of days. In the meantime, if you have the S&M disk, give these tests a try. They are eye-openers.
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post #4959 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post


Unrelated but in the process of chatting with y'all, I learned just how bad DTV is. I know this but didn't really understand it :-) So don't watch games available OTA on DTV, (and nothing else on OTA worth watching). But I lose my DVR doing this...

I dumped my 170 per month Dish network bill a couple of months ago, and went with netflix/hulu(free for 1 year), and bought OTA antennas for all the tv's in the house..best 2000.00 annual savings I ever imagined!
Lots of stuff to watch in Chicago OTA; at least 60 channels available..and, plenty to watch with netflix/hulu..
I do miss being able to record sports events to view later, but after all, 2 grand savings is hard to beat!smile.gif
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post #4960 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 03:55 PM
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Is it worth getting an X9 now or wait for the new ones?
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post #4961 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 04:41 PM
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only YOU can answer that question...
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post #4962 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 04:43 PM
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What would u do at this stage?
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post #4963 of 12538 Old 01-24-2014, 04:47 PM
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i love this tv, and wouldn't hesitate to buy it again if I was in the market for a 65 inch premium set right now
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post #4964 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 06:04 AM
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Hi!
Can anyone tell me how can I play play UHD videos using the USB port of the 55X900A?
On the official 4k sony blog (https://blog.sony.com/2013/04/4k-faq/) they say you can, but I never could.

I've used *.mkv & *.mp4 files but the TV always fails to play them.

Thank you for your help!!
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post #4965 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 06:09 AM
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try .avi....
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post #4966 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

I know it seems odd that the 'Resolution' slider is rolling off random HF detail while the 'Noise' slider seems to be doing, um, something else. But it makes sense when you realise that upscalers generally need the image to be as clean and noise-free as possible in order to work at peak efficiency, not least when you're turning 2 million pixels into 4 times as many. So, the Resolution slider appears to work by isolating actual picture detail from noise/grain, adding extra sharpening the more that you push the slider, and I've got to say that on a low setting it works absolutely brilliantly.

Make no mistake, the processing inside these X9 sets is world class.

Looks like they are using a "standard trick" where if you first blur the image and then subtract that blur that from the original. It removes haze and so on. This is the "unsharp mask" of Photoshop. Looks like it can be done now by our TV on video in real time which is a very decent amount of compute (8MP image at 30HZ, that't a lot)

The pictures in the intro of this (very long) paper demonstrate how great this can look!

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kahe/publications/thesis.pdf
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post #4967 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

...I have been running MotionControl in the "True Cinema" setting--don't know exactly why, but I think a reviewer said he like this setting best. Using the S&M tests, I experimented with several other MotionFlow settings, and the ability of various settings to "tame" the motion in the tests was quite telling. I finally focused on four settings, with these results:

"Off" - The moving test images were painful to watch, with lots of jerkiness and stuttering
"True Cinema" - A very minor improvement, still with a lot of unpleasant stuttering (why have I been using this one?)
"Standard" - Significant improvement, almost perfect, but not quite...
"Smooth" - Uncanny improvement, almost all motion artifacts completely gone (wow!)

if you have the S&M disk, give these tests a try. They are eye-openers....

Very impressive and easy to see. Thanks for the tip!

What surprised me was that the settings like "impulse" that make the picture soooo dull, did NOT seem to do much for motion artifacts. I probably didn't understand the artifact they fix, but looking at the jumping lines on the girl's dress while she swings, "smooth" is the obvious winner: bright and smooth.

I tried to use the "Telecine" clips on the disk to see if the "cinemotion" setting did anything, but since the choice is "auto" or "off" I probably only saw off. Of course very little is actually shot on film these days so probably not something to get spun up about….

Thanks again.
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post #4968 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 09:45 AM
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You are correct, "Smooth" produced the most noticeable improvement.  But be aware that many of the professional reviewers felt that this mode overly-processed the image to the point where it can look unnatural.  Many describe this mode as having a "soap opera effect".  Some extended viewing using both Standard and Smooth will go a long way towards a decision about which is best (if either).

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post #4969 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Some extended viewing using both Standard and Smooth will go a long way towards a decision about which is best (if either).

I think the movie makers know most folks TV would look terrible with the test image and avoid that situation; which is why I also had "True Cineam" and noticed nothing. I'm interested what your discerning I finds; and my AM21 OTA is supposed by here by WED so I'll be all set for the big game: motion and less compression!
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post #4970 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

You are correct, "Smooth" produced the most noticeable improvement.  But be aware that many of the professional reviewers felt that this mode overly-processed the image to the point where it can look unnatural.  Many describe this mode as having a "soap opera effect".  Some extended viewing using both Standard and Smooth will go a long way towards a decision about which is best (if either).
my older lg tv in my office has this effect; its kinda creepy, but in a way, incredibly lifelike...
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post #4971 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 12:24 PM
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I think the movie makers know most folks TV would look terrible with the test image and avoid that situation; which is why I also had "True Cineam" and noticed nothing. I'm interested what your discerning I finds; and my AM21 OTA is supposed by here by WED so I'll be all set for the big game: motion and less compression!

 

Great.  I'm looking forward to your impressions of the AM21, and the OTA PQ quality on your Set.

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post #4972 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 02:01 PM
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For anyone looking for a good assessment of black-level performance, check out the TV show Grimm, NBC Friday evenings. It is filmed in and around Portland, and is full of rich, dark scenes that look absolutely stunning on the X900.
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post #4973 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have for quite some time been searching for the right setting for Motionflow. I have finally located test patterns on the Spears&Munsil ver 2 Blu-ray that provide some insight on how this control works.

If you have this excellent disk, navigate to the Video Processing section, and then to the Motion sub-menu. This section contains three motion tests, called Stock Ticker, xXx Parade, and Sarah on a Hammock (really). Each test has three modes, 24p, 30p and 60p. Of the three, 24p exhibits the most motion artifacts and seems to be the torture test for the MotionFlow control.

I have been running MotionControl in the "True Cinema" setting--don't know exactly why, but I think a reviewer said he like this setting best. Using the S&M tests, I experimented with several other MotionFlow settings, and the ability of various settings to "tame" the motion in the tests was quite telling. I finally focused on four settings, with these results:

"Off" - The moving test images were painful to watch, with lots of jerkiness and stuttering
"True Cinema" - A very minor improvement, still with a lot of unpleasant stuttering (why have I been using this one?)
"Standard" - Significant improvement, almost perfect, but not quite...
"Smooth" - Uncanny improvement, almost all motion artifacts completely gone (wow!)

So, now for some extended viewing tests. For the time being, I am going to try "Standard", only because the "Smooth" setting has the reputation of resulting in the "soap opera effect". I'll report my impressions in a couple of days. In the meantime, if you have the S&M disk, give these tests a try. They are eye-openers.

I've done the same Motionflow tests with the S&M disc. While they may make the test footage look smooth as silk, the real world applications are somewhat less clear cut. In any case, 24p images are usually supposed to judder, that's how they're shot, so although the S&M test footage may look 'painful' in and of itself, I've got no problem watching my movies like that. I use the True Cinema option with most movies, although I'm damned if I can see a difference when turning it on/off.

Smooth and Standard are both frame interpolation modes, and with 24p movies both result in noticeable 'tearing' artefacts on fast movement and have that horrible 'soap opera' look in general. But use them with proper 50/60Hz material like TV sports or video games and they do impart a genuine sense of smoothness (albeit mixed in with other artefacts because the on-screen video idents can cause the motionflow video/film 'lock' to drift).

Impulse is a blank frame insertion mode, which is why it's so dark. The two Clear settings are a mix of blank frame insertion and frame interpolation. Clear Plus is also a little too dark, but I've used Clear several times before because it dims the image only slightly, and even though it's adding frames, it's not adding a zillion of them, so motion artefacts are kept at a minimum.

I find that Clear works very well with movies shot on video that don't even try and pretend to look like film, like Mann's Miami Vice, because the shutter angle is wider and so the motion blur has that classic 'video' kinda look. It seems to give the motionflow processing more to hang on to, if that makes sense. The Hobbit movies benefit from this mode too, as they were also shot with a very wide shutter angle (you can get a taste of what the HFR is like).

Don't get me wrongo, the way that the image moves still takes some getting used to, but then you'll begin to appreciate the boost in clarity that the extra temporal resolution brings to the party. The same is true of the other modes like Smooth and Standard, but because they add so many more artefacts (with 24p material) it kinda negates the benefits of the extra resolution, whereas Clear is a nice way to bridge the gap.
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post #4974 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 05:45 PM
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Not only do you get the horrible and patently wrong soap opera effect with smooth motion but it also scrubs away all the fine detail. I don't know why anyone would use this setting.

I am aware of T's, and am focusing on "Standard" at this time. Do you have any feedback on that mode?
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post #4975 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

I've done the same Motionflow tests with the S&M disc. While they may make the test footage look smooth as silk, the real world applications are somewhat less clear cut. In any case, 24p images are usually supposed to judder, that's how they're shot, so although the S&M test footage may look 'painful' in and of itself, I've got no problem watching my movies like that. I use the True Cinema option with most movies, although I'm damned if I can see a difference when turning it on/off.

Smooth and Standard are both frame interpolation modes, and with 24p movies both result in noticeable 'tearing' artefacts on fast movement and have that horrible 'soap opera' look in general. But use them with proper 50/60Hz material like TV sports or video games and they do impart a genuine sense of smoothness (albeit mixed in with other artefacts because the on-screen video idents can cause the motionflow video/film 'lock' to drift).

Impulse is a blank frame insertion mode, which is why it's so dark. The two Clear settings are a mix of blank frame insertion and frame interpolation. Clear Plus is also a little too dark, but I've used Clear several times before because it dims the image only slightly, and even though it's adding frames, it's not adding a zillion of them, so motion artefacts are kept at a minimum.

I find that Clear works very well with movies shot on video that don't even try and pretend to look like film, like Mann's Miami Vice, because the shutter angle is wider and so the motion blur has that classic 'video' kinda look. It seems to give the motionflow processing more to hang on to, if that makes sense. The Hobbit movies benefit from this mode too, as they were also shot with a very wide shutter angle (you can get a taste of what the HFR is like).

Don't get me wrongo, the way that the image moves still takes some getting used to, but then you'll begin to appreciate the boost in clarity that the extra temporal resolution brings to the party. The same is true of the other modes like Smooth and Standard, but because they add so many more artefacts (with 24p material) it kinda negates the benefits of the extra resolution, whereas Clear is a nice way to bridge the gap.

Very useful feedback, Geoff. Your observations give me more insight on what to be looking for as I evaluate the various options.
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post #4976 of 12538 Old 01-25-2014, 11:21 PM
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Hi All, 

 

anyone noticed any clouding effects on their set, mine have a minor effects scattered in the upper right edge and one towards the middle, its not always visible but sometime they pop up in a darker scenes.

 

its not major but annoying enough maybe because i am focusing on them now.

 

any special calibration to minimize this effect, is it normal or shall i call Sony to replace my set?

 

appreciate your feedback on this.


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post #4977 of 12538 Old 01-26-2014, 05:42 AM
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anyone noticed any clouding effects on their set ...shall i call Sony to replace my set?

Unless I am entering early stage senility, I believe my set NOW has a touch more clouding than it appeared to have prior to the 4.101AAA update. (you know the update that seemed to throw picture settings into a tizzy?)

I am not sure whether they'd replace the set unless it was really a spectacular case of clouding, but you can always try.

(post edited to correct update number.)

Good luck,
Lee
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post #4978 of 12538 Old 01-26-2014, 08:30 AM
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Does Amazon price match Abe's of Maine? If they do, the 55" is $2,888.
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post #4979 of 12538 Old 01-26-2014, 09:02 AM
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That's a great price, but Amazon or Best Buy would never.
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Does Amazon price match Abe's of Maine? If they do, the 55" is $2,888.
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post #4980 of 12538 Old 01-26-2014, 09:49 AM
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Don't know if we ever got final word about us early adopters being able to watch Netflix in 4K on this tv, but this pic looks promising... This is out TV with House of Cards showing in the 4K option... image.jpg 78k .jpg file
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Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

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Sony Xbr 65x900a 65 Inch 1080p 120hz 3d Led 4k Ultra Hdtv , Sony Xbr 55x900a 55 Inch 4k Ultra Hd 3d Led Tv
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