Official Sony [X9] XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A Owner's Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 12257 Old 05-20-2013, 07:18 PM
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AV8801 - That's what I was thinking. I don't know if it pays to get the oppo bdp-105 or just pick up sony's 4k BR player for this display.
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post #32 of 12257 Old 05-21-2013, 08:27 AM
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What HDMI Cables is everyone using?
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post #33 of 12257 Old 05-21-2013, 10:31 AM
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I always use Monoprice. Great quality and surprisingly reasonable. I could never understand why people pay huge prices for cables and even power cords. If there ever was a really non biased report done I considerably doubt the best in the business would notice a difference. You'll never find one though because of the advertising dollars generated by the companies and trade magazines wouldn't want to lose them.
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post #34 of 12257 Old 05-21-2013, 11:00 AM
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I saw this set in Best Buy/Magnolia over the weekend (the 65"). I would disagree with anyone that 4K isn't needed at this screen size...detail is detail. And it rules in terms of detail. When you can tell that the young girl model is using stage makeup...well, that's detail.

Color is awesome too but the saturation for the demo reel is pretty over the top...but 1080p sets had similar demo reels in store years ago. I might have to go back and try "Cinema 1". smile.gif

Not convinced the speakers are needed at this price point...I would hope most people are using this with a proper home theater system.

Couldn't really judge blacks with little dark content on the demo reel.

Didn't see it do upscaling. Maybe next time.

What's the refresh rate? 960?

Didn't see 3D....looking forward to see how well it does passive.

Did I mention the detail/color?

Only problems now are the fact that it's not H.265 capable and HDMI 2.0 isn't here either. Without them, it's not a fully formed product. But if money's no object, it's a hell of a product. Easily the best Sony TV ever made.

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post #35 of 12257 Old 05-21-2013, 10:27 PM
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Heres my dillemma with this tv. The refresh rate is only 120hz here are the specs• Sony 65" Class - LED - 4K Ultra HD TV (2160p) - 120Hz - Smart - 3D - HDTV. I needed a new tv and really wanted the sony it was between the elite 70 and the samsung rose gold and the sony 4k. I noticed watching the sony 4k demo reel that they mostly showed still pictures and the tv looked FABULOUS!!! but when it showed motion there was lag or some type of shuddering i really dont know what to call it. All of the salesman in the magnolia dept noticed it too. Especially on the movie life of pie. I watched various motion clips on the sony and still was amazed at how jumpy action scenes looked. I had them put the rose samsung rose gold next to the 4k. the samsung handled the motion much better than the sony though the picture was not as good. Please keep in mind i really wanted the sony but the motion is not good and i think the 120hz refresh rate is the culprit. The best buy staff said for 6900 that should not be happening so whats everyone elses opinion?
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post #36 of 12257 Old 05-21-2013, 11:01 PM
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I have the 65" on the way to me and will have it delivered on Friday. I'm currently auditioning a Sharp 80" Full Array LED tv.
I'm getting the Sony to try out to prevent buyer's remorse because I really wanted a 4ktv but couldn't afford the tax
on the 84" Sony.

I have the holiday weekend to try out the Sony and then I have to make a decision on which tv I will keep and which one
will be returned next Tuesday.

My main concern is the smaller screen as I've been using a 73" Mitsubishi DLP for the past several years.
Does anyone else own an 80" LCD and this Sony? If you had to choose one, which one would you choose?

So there will be a battle of the titans this weekend when the Sony 65" 4KTV faces off with the 80" behemoth known as Sharp.
I'll let you know which one wins next week!

If I end up picking the Sony to keep, I'll need a new 4k receiver. I'm looking at the Sony STR-DN1040 7.2 Channel 1050-Watt A/V Receiver.
Does anyone have any opinions on this model or the year prior to it? Thanks for your feedback!

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post #37 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 12:38 AM
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The refresh rate is 120hz but they say there motion flow proprietary tech is xr960 but the refresh rate is only 120hz. whatever it is it doesnt look good no matter what setting. I really wanted this tv i cant believe they gave it such a poor refresh rate. The samsung and the elite have much better motion than the sony. its really ashame. sony does beter on still pictures but thats about it. the few reviews that are out there state the same thing.
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post #38 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 12:53 AM
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FWIW, some co-workers of mine attended a sony-sponsored training specifically for the 4K XBRs. The Sony trainers also told them the sets were native 120Hz, and they had some sort of explanation which didn't make much sense to anybody.
every website that sells the W802 also seems to indicate that its 120Hz native evrn though its XR480. Not really sure what's up with that, and why they'd choose to equip a flagship TV with a low refresh rate if that's true.

Since Sony has started using the convoluted XR ratings, i recall they also had a separate space buried in their specs page dedicated to native refresh rates for each model, which seems absent on 2013 model pages.

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post #39 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 01:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony.jp lists the X9200A (U.S. X900A) as 240:
http://www.sony.jp/bravia/products/KD-55X9200A/feature_2.html#L1_80
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post #40 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 01:54 AM
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It just seems to list it "Motionflow XR240"," which in NA Sony speak would indicate that it's actually 120Hz.

Using google translate I can't seem to find any indication that it's a 240Hz NATIVE refresh rate panel. In the motion section, it states:

"Technology to make 120 frames by generating a new image of one frame between the frame and the frame of the video of 60 frames per second in the "double-speed drive panel"

The only time I find 240 mentioned is in reference to it's Motionflow XR rating:

"It is equipped with a new backlight on / off technology to double-speed drive panel. Through the video equivalent to 4x (1 second frame 240)"

which would actually point to it being native 120Hz + 120Hz equivalent backlight scanning, arriving at 240 Motionflow (not technically 240Hz). If this same information can be applied to the US-spec model, then the information provided seems to more clearly bear out that the X900A is indeed 120Hz. On the .jp Sony "Key Specifications" page, it lists "Speed Function" as "Double-Speed Drive/ Motionflow XR240":

http://www.sony.jp/bravia/products/KD-65X9200A/spec.html

Curiously, on the .jp spec page for the W900A, it indicates a panel frequency of "4x drive panel/XR960."

http://www.sony.jp/bravia/products/KDL-55W900A/spec.html


So, to repeat: for whatever reason, in Japan at least, the X900 (X9200) seems to utilize a lower native refresh than the W900. Retailer pages in the US seem to lend this notion some credence. Seems odd to me, but hopefully we'll have a concrete answer sooner rather than later.

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post #41 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

It just seems to list it "Motionflow XR240"," which in NA Sony speak would indicate that it's actually 120Hz.

Using google translate I can't seem to find any indication that it's a 240Hz NATIVE refresh rate panel. In the motion section, it states:

"Technology to make 120 frames by generating a new image of one frame between the frame and the frame of the video of 60 frames per second in the "double-speed drive panel"

The only time I find 240 mentioned is in reference to it's Motionflow XR rating:

"It is equipped with a new backlight on / off technology to double-speed drive panel. Through the video equivalent to 4x (1 second frame 240)"

which would actually point to it being native 120Hz + 120Hz equivalent backlight scanning, arriving at 240 Motionflow (not technically 240Hz). If this same information can be applied to the US-spec model, then the information provided seems to more clearly bear out that the X900A is indeed 120Hz. On the .jp Sony "Key Specifications" page, it lists "Speed Function" as "Double-Speed Drive/ Motionflow XR240":

http://www.sony.jp/bravia/products/KD-65X9200A/spec.html

Curiously, on the .jp spec page for the W900A, it indicates a panel frequency of "4x drive panel/XR960."

http://www.sony.jp/bravia/products/KDL-55W900A/spec.html


So, to repeat: for whatever reason, in Japan at least, the X900 (X9200) seems to utilize a lower native refresh than the W900. Retailer pages in the US seem to lend this notion some credence. Seems odd to me, but hopefully we'll have a concrete answer sooner rather than later.

I'm ordering one today - I'll let you know what I see when it arrives. I'm coming from a Pioneer 60" Kuro plasma, so the motion performance will be readily apparent if it's lacking.

I did speak to a friend of mine who is a dealer about this because I had the same concerns about the 120Hz refresh rate. He basically told me that the scaler is more important than the refresh rate and that I shouldn't worry about it. Now I'm a little worried.
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post #42 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 07:38 AM
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I saw the extended preview of After World on the 65" and that was amazing. I want this TV so bad but I just don't have the room for it...
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post #43 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxguy View Post

I'm ordering one today - I'll let you know what I see when it arrives. I'm coming from a Pioneer 60" Kuro plasma, so the motion performance will be readily apparent if it's lacking.

I did speak to a friend of mine who is a dealer about this because I had the same concerns about the 120Hz refresh rate. He basically told me that the scaler is more important than the refresh rate and that I shouldn't worry about it. Now I'm a little worried.

I don't doubt that the scaling is more important on a TV like this since everything you see needs to be scaled on this panel. But motion processing only goes hand in hand with scaling to make for a better picture, so unless there's a technical or engineering reason that Sony would have for keeping these at 120Hz, it just seems peculiar to me that they would leave anything on the table for a TV like this.

It's also interesting that the Japan X900 is advertised as only having XR240 instead of XR960 like the NA version. Makes me wonder if they're slightly different or if they just fudged the XR rating to throw us off here.

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post #44 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

It's also interesting that the Japan X900 is advertised as only having XR240 instead of XR960 like the NA version. Makes me wonder if they're slightly different or if they just fudged the XR rating to throw us off here.

This is a non-issue. Look at Sony.jp. Both versions are equal, manufactured in Japan. View the diagram explaining frame interpolation for the specific model (1/240, 2/240, 3/240, 4/240...240x4=960). Forget remarks from employees or retailers because they are just as confused every year. It is no coincidence that 960 is a multiple of 240 (4x as Sony.jp explains, which is U.S. 960). It is no coincidence the numbers match. It is no coincidence that every XBR labeled "960" has been 240hz. This is how Sony's Motion Flow numbers work, and this is how it has been applied for several years now.
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post #45 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 10:07 AM
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I just took a ride to Best Buy over lunch to look at the display. To my eyes, it looks great. I do have a question, though. Assuming the scaler in the display is top notch, would I want to avoid the Sony S790 Blu Ray player which upsamples to 4K and just let the display do it?
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post #46 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

This is a non-issue. Look at Sony.jp. Both versions are equal, manufactured in Japan. View the diagram explaining frame interpolation for the specific model (1/240, 2/240, 3/240, 4/240...240x4=960). Forget remarks from employees or retailers because they are just as confused every year. It is no coincidence that 960 is a multiple of 240 (4x as Sony.jp explains, which is U.S. 960). It is no coincidence the numbers match. It is no coincidence that every XBR labeled "960" has been 240hz. This is how Sony's Motion Flow numbers work, and this is how it has been applied for several years now.

I'm not saying it's an issue; rather it's more a curiosity. Sony's motion processing has always been tops amongst LCD displays IMO, so I doubt there'll be any major issues. I'm just saying that nowhere in the link you provided (or in the Sony U. S. store) does it list the X900s native refresh rate. The link you provided actually points to it being native 120 + 120 BL Scanning. Whether that makes a big difference in performance is unknown.

Just because the XR numbers have been applied one way historically does not mean that things can change.

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post #47 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 10:31 AM
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BTW, the speakers on the set aren't half bad. Although I agree that most people will probably be using this with a HT setup, sometime I find it's better (late night) to just use the speakers on the set.
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post #48 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 12:09 PM
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Unfortunately it is 120 hz every retailer that sells it lists it at 120hz. I have spent extensive time with this tv and if it handled motion better it would be in my living room right now. the magnolia reps were trying to figure out why it handled motion so poorly and found out it was in fact 120hz. sony is tiptoeing around this fact by listing it as motion xr960 etc. I believe the more expensive sony 84 inch 4k $24,995 is 240 hz but not this one. Also anyone that doubts the 120hz refresh rate should go to bestbuy and they can show you the literature. the specs are actually right under the price at the store. No one could believe they would do this but the rep confirmed it.
there is also an early review out there by i believe cnet talking about how the 4k will have motion blur here a copy paste of article:

I'll add another problem to the list of things 4K doesn't address: motion resolution. All LCDs suffer from motion resolution problems, in many cases, losing upward of 40 percent of their visible resolution when anything on the screen moves. All announced (and most of the previewed) Ultra HD displays are still just LCDs, with all of that technology's shortcomings. These so-called "next-generation" televisions will still have poor off-axis picture quality and mediocre contrast ratios. They'll likely have poor picture uniformity, too, as many models are edge-lit. True, they all have higher refresh rates, but without motion interpolation, higher refresh rates do little to fix motion blur. If the drop in resolution with current LCDs is any indication (and No. 5 shows it is), these "2160p" TVs will resolve something like 1,296 lines with motion.

Perhaps this is why nearly every demo at CES of 4K and 8K TVs showed slow pans and still images. Check out "What is refresh rate?" for more on motion resolut
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post #49 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 12:28 PM
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The retailers probably just don't know how to set things up properly. Motion and picture settings, etc... I hear that's pretty common.

Sometimes I think my brain has a mind of its own.
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post #50 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malfador2002 View Post

Heres my dillemma with this tv. The refresh rate is only 120hz here are the specs• Sony 65" Class - LED - 4K Ultra HD TV (2160p) - 120Hz - Smart - 3D - HDTV. I needed a new tv and really wanted the sony it was between the elite 70 and the samsung rose gold and the sony 4k. I noticed watching the sony 4k demo reel that they mostly showed still pictures and the tv looked FABULOUS!!! but when it showed motion there was lag or some type of shuddering i really dont know what to call it. All of the salesman in the magnolia dept noticed it too. Especially on the movie life of pie. I watched various motion clips on the sony and still was amazed at how jumpy action scenes looked. I had them put the rose samsung rose gold next to the 4k. the samsung handled the motion much better than the sony though the picture was not as good. Please keep in mind i really wanted the sony but the motion is not good and i think the 120hz refresh rate is the culprit. The best buy staff said for 6900 that should not be happening so whats everyone elses opinion?

How motion is handled is largely a result of how the many many settings a top end TV like this are adjusted. The blur you see (I saw it too at my local BB demo) is the result of the actual footage itself. All the 4K demo footage is shown at 30 FPS or less (the limit of these sets, so far). Virtually all film based or 24 FPS digital footage is rampant with motion blur. It doesn't have to be. Check out the movie 'Crank' with Jason Statham. For some reason it was shot with a high shutter speed at 24 fps. The overall effect is quite jarring and looks like a very fast strobe. Blur smooths this out and that's why you will always see it in 24 FPS films. Just freeze frame it the next time you see it at home and Voila! even the frozen frame is blurry.
For that matter, I was watching some NHL playoff hockey and even there, there was significant blur when the camera was panning - again verified by freeze framing.
Don't know where you got the 120Hz from. All info I've read says 240Hz. Even indirectly it said Motionflow 960 quadruples the native refresh rate.
I've stopped by Best Buy twice in the last week and watched the entire demo loop. Overall, I was very impressed with the detail and super saturated colors (I would tone them down a bit) but disappointed that the 4K mode would not display at 60P if the source was available. I sure hope it's doable if and when the source arrives. That would almost be a deal breaker for me as I've been against 24 fps presentations since I was a kid. The panning blur always drove me nuts - and that's despite a good cameraman/director moving the camera at close to a snail's pace.
While I'm ranting, there is a short scene in the James Bond movie Casino Royale where the camera pans the players at the Baccarat table. It is actually jarringly unwatchable and clearly clearly demonstrates that 24 fps is woefully short of the frame rate required to approximate natural motion.
So, what I'm saying here is that motion blur is inherent in the source itself 99% of the time. That has been my experience over the past several years and confirmed with my trusty DVR or DVD/Blu-Ray player and their freeze frame functions.
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post #51 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 01:06 PM
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I see what your saying as far as blur but I had them put a rose gold samsung next to the sony 4k and there was no blur on the content. it handled motion superbly. go into best buy look at the price and specs on the sony and it says 120 hz. thats the refresh rate. The reps at bestbuy confirmed it to me. Compared to the vt60 and the samsung rose gold this set handles motion and action scenes horribly. If you like looking at still pics this is the set for you but for movies not really. the first run of everything always has some bugs and i wont be buying this tv for another two years till they fix it.
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post #52 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 01:25 PM
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I just called sony and they dont have it listed as to what the "Native" refresh rate is. They tapp danced around all my questions but they told me with thier proprietry software it was 960.......rolleyes.gif so that explains the lag.....
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post #53 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 04:21 PM
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A question to the owners: Have you noticed problems with motion on this set? Please specify the size you own since it seems each size uses a different kind of lcd panel. Reports from the tv shootout I read on these forums also said the sony had some issues with motion but I'd like to know the opinion of owners which actually have the tv at home. And if some of you use this to play videogames please tell us how's your experience since game mode doesn't use any kind of motion compensation to keep input lag low. Is the panel "fast" enough without motion interpolation? Not evident motion blur on games?
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post #54 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 06:56 PM
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No notion blur on games..... yet...

As for blu ray players concern - i have an old oppo 93 and the TV upscales perfectly without any hiccups/ issues. For those folks that want to upgrade their blu ray player to oppo 103/105 - I see there is no need for an upgrade. Save that money to get the new 4K media player - its now posted on the sony website (thanks kbrod1 for the info). Glad it has 2 HDMI outputs - one for video and one for audio, 2 Terabyte HD and $200 off for 65 or 55X900a owners!

Below are some youtube links I've posted:

1) XBOX - Call of Duty Black Ops. Recorded using iphone 5 (720p)...not the greatest quality. <--I've posted this in the prior anticipation thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gBaLzvXDck

2) Older video - when i first got the TV playing native 4k content from youtube (original format) on my PC. Sorry..I look like a super geek/dork in this video tongue.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJg6OvFYE8

Still awaiting folks positing their calibration results...as well as CNET calibration settings.

Below are some 4k videos available on youtube that are worth checking it out...make sure you use your PC to output 4K resolution and select "original" in settings.

MUST DOWNLOAD - SONY 4K DEMO 1 - seen in stores
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt38tFiB9J0

MUST DOWNLOAD - SONY 4K DEMO 2 - seen in stores
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqiM9ENvm5o

The SHARPEST 4K video I've seen so far/ available at youtube... a little cheesy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7NiOek_wpE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QET6vYvle4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6eaVeYXOs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYYYT48Iv_c
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post #55 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

This is a non-issue. Look at Sony.jp. Both versions are equal, manufactured in Japan. View the diagram explaining frame interpolation for the specific model (1/240, 2/240, 3/240, 4/240...240x4=960). Forget remarks from employees or retailers because they are just as confused every year. It is no coincidence that 960 is a multiple of 240 (4x as Sony.jp explains, which is U.S. 960). It is no coincidence the numbers match. It is no coincidence that every XBR labeled "960" has been 240hz. This is how Sony's Motion Flow numbers work, and this is how it has been applied for several years now.

This set is 120Hz, not 240Hz. Straight from Sony.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #56 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

Nice to know. It's wise to wait until after return period is up because the fine print states your 4K device is not returnable after redeeming the offer.

Best Buy, or any other retailer, has no way of tracking whether or not you have redeemed this offer. This is just a standard disclaimer and should not be considered to have any teeth.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #57 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 08:18 PM
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So I have a little issue with my 65". There is a 16 inch crack running down the side of the tv where the side panel isn't black. Not sure if they forgot to paint that or whatever they do to get it black.

Anyway, spoke with Sony about the issue and sent them pictures. First they setup an exchange and told me a new unit would be here in a week.

Next morning I get a phone call at 8am telling me they've decided not to exchange my unit and this is a completely "NORMAL" viewing condition according to their US engineers and their Japanese engineers.

After being on the phone for 2 hours with them they told me it was normal and that I have two options. Option 1 - For me to haul the 118lb tv to my local store to exchange it, which of course they don't have any in stock, and I also have a condition as well which prevents me from doing so, so I would have to hire people to take it down. Option 2 - I could return it and pay the astronomical return shipping fees.

Does this look like a normal viewing condition for a $7k TV?

Where did you purchase your TV? Did you have it delivered and installed by them?

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post #58 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by electrofascist View Post

Nice to know. It's wise to wait until after return period is up because the fine print states your 4K device is not returnable after redeeming the offer.

Best Buy, or any other retailer for that matter, would have no way of tracking whether or not you have redeemed this offer. This is just a standard disclaimer and should not be considered to have any teeth.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #59 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Best Buy, or any other retailer, has no way of tracking whether or not you have redeemed this offer. This is just a standard disclaimer and should not be considered to have any teeth.
Sony direct may be able to keep track, but no one else could.

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post #60 of 12257 Old 05-22-2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

This set is 120Hz, not 240Hz. Straight from Sony.
Wow - that is strange!! For a set this expensive, 240Hz Min. should have been a no-brainer, whether you chose to activate it or not. BB And Future Shop both spec it at 240 and I believe the S&V review I read for the 84" mentions it as well.
I could find no definitive number from Sony. How and where did you get it??????? If it was from some Sony salesman I would not consider that conclusive. I've caught them spewing misinformation many times over the years.

I THINK WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO FIND OUT IS IF THESE NEW SONY 4K SETS WILL AT SOME POINT ACCEPT A 4K SIGNAL AT 60FPS.
OTHERWISE, MOTION BLUR WOULD BE ALMOST INTOLERABLE IF YOU ARE SEATED AT THE OPTIMUM DISTANCE FOR 4K - ABOUT 4-1/2 Ft. FOR THE 65"
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Sony Xbr 65x900a 65 Inch 1080p 120hz 3d Led 4k Ultra Hdtv , Sony Xbr 55x900a 55 Inch 4k Ultra Hd 3d Led Tv
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