Official Sony [X9] XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A Owner's Thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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LCD Flat Panel Displays > Official Sony [X9] XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A Owner's Thread
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar Cleveland Plasma 09:40 AM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by disker72 View Post

My friends come over every other Sunday for Dinner and Movie night. They pick the area of the globe that the food comes from, and I cook it. Since I got my 65x9, they have all commented how stunning the picture looks! Often several times in the same hour. I for one am glad to be an early adopter. Even after 6 weeks, I still am amazed by the PQ on this set!

I can't wait till HDMI 2.0 rolls out and we have affordable red-ray 4k native players/discs!!!! But until then, I am MORE than happy with how this thing handles a 1080p signal!
In the end, that is all that matters. That you are happy smile.gif

vega509's Avatar vega509 09:46 AM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post


You got me licking at the chops! I think I'm going to get one. Do you have a receiver? If so, what's a good receiver that won't give it problems?


you can use the darblet without a receiver, it just goes between the source and the television using HDMI connections. I have mine on the output of a matrix switch so the darblet is working on all my sources.


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 10:37 AM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post

You got me licking at the chops! I think I'm going to get one. Do you have a receiver? If so, what's a good receiver that won't give it problems?

As vega509 says, the AVR doesn't matter. I have two Darblets, one for each of my TV's, both connected on the HDMI output from Denon AVR's so that all signals from the AVR to the display are processed.
Gillietalls's Avatar Gillietalls 03:26 PM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vega509 View Post


you can use the darblet without a receiver, it just goes between the source and the television using HDMI connections. I have mine on the output of a matrix switch so the darblet is working on all my sources.

Sweet. Thanks.
Gillietalls's Avatar Gillietalls 03:27 PM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

As vega509 says, the AVR doesn't matter. I have two Darblets, one for each of my TV's, both connected on the HDMI output from Denon AVR's so that all signals from the AVR to the display are processed.

Appreciate your input. Thanks.
abeslu's Avatar abeslu 07:59 PM 10-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by laakness View Post

So I have a FABL HX909 upstairs now and it has a little bit of clouding. Then I had a plasma for a while (VT60) but had a lot of burn in. This is now the 65 X9

Is this just the downfall of having edge lit technology? I'm using AustinJerry's settings and have to almost turn the backlight down to 0 to get rid of it.

This pic was taken in the dark with iPhone and focused on TV to exaggerate the issue a bit but the uneven lighting is very obvious in any dark/darkish scene.

Any thoughts or do I just shut up and enjoy everything but the dark scenes? smile.gif


Mine had a little clouding like yours, I massaged very softly the clouding areas with a cotton cloth, and now my 65x900 is perfect. biggrin.gif
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 09:03 PM 10-12-2013

On what should be a black screen, my X900 never achieves what I would call a "completely black" image.  As shown below, the screen continues to exhibit a dark gray.  Compared with my HX909 with FALD, which has 100% black screens, I have a little bit of concern.

 

I have experimented with the various controls, e.g. Picture, Brightness, Backlight, Gamma, etc. and I cannot achieve 100% black.  However, when there is an image on the screen, I don't perceive that the overall black level is lacking.  Anyone else have an opinion or observation on this?

 


flinchn's Avatar flinchn 01:18 AM 10-13-2013
Dunno. My black screen looks like the set is off. In fact all of my blacks are pretty close as to fade into the bezel. Only between inputs do I see anything like that but only a spot or two on the left. Never during content.
hatlesschimp's Avatar hatlesschimp 05:56 AM 10-13-2013
Same
wase4711's Avatar wase4711 06:09 AM 10-13-2013
my black screen looks like its off as well...
AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:19 AM 10-13-2013

How about the black level on a familiar screen, like when the Oppo screen saver is running?  My screen is not 100% black.  I guess I should stop obsessing about it--there is no way to improve upon it.

 


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 06:34 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

How about the black level on a familiar screen, like when the Oppo screen saver is running?  My screen is not 100% black.  I guess I should stop obsessing about it--there is no way to improve upon it.

 

 

Hey Jerry,

 

I think that, underneath all the excitement about 4K, one has to remember that the x900 series are LCD TVs, and so they are subject to all of the performance parameters and characteristics of that technology. Weak black levels have always been a characteristic of LCD screens, along with less than perfect motion handling etc. These issues are an inherent part of the design technology of the screens. For excellent black levels one can choose the plasma screen route, but then of course one would have to sacrifice the 4K as there are no 4K plasmas (and never will be). It comes down to what is most important for the individual: 4K resolution, or excellent black level performance.

 

Of course, Samsung and LG have just announced the first commercial OLED sets to be offered at sensible prices and sizes. OLED promises absolute black because of the way the Tech works. OLED also offers a number of other benefits, but, like all these different techs, also has a number of drawbacks, such as the alleged poor longevity of the panels - although if they last for 5 years and perform well during that time, some of us would be happy with that compromise, given the upgrade cycle these days for screens. Personally, even though the Samsung 55 inch OLED is available for a 'reasonable' price of $9.000, I'd wait a year or so for when they cost half that and the tech has also matured.

 

I know you read Sound & Vision - there is a good section in the November issue about OLED technology and reviews of the two currently available OLED screens - both curved - WTF!


quovadis123's Avatar quovadis123 06:36 AM 10-13-2013

I see black clouding on white

I see white clouding on black

 

very faint

 

TOP OF TV

horizontal length 


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 06:36 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchn View Post

Dunno. My black screen looks like the set is off. In fact all of my blacks are pretty close as to fade into the bezel. Only between inputs do I see anything like that but only a spot or two on the left. Never during content.

 

Has the set been calibrated?


vega509's Avatar vega509 06:37 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

On what should be a black screen, my X900 never achieves what I would call a "completely black" image.  As shown below, the screen continues to exhibit a dark gray.  Compared with my HX909 with FALD, which has 100% black screens, I have a little bit of concern.

 

I have experimented with the various controls, e.g. Picture, Brightness, Backlight, Gamma, etc. and I cannot achieve 100% black.  However, when there is an image on the screen, I don't perceive that the overall black level is lacking.  Anyone else have an opinion or observation on this?

 

The black levels on this set are affected more than FALD sets because of the edge lighting. One thing that I have seen that has nothing to do with the set itself, but the input signal, is if what you think should be a black screen is actually not. For example, if you are watching letterboxed content, and the top and bottom look lighter than they should be, it could be the source is not actually black. I see this quite often on Showtime.

 

Testing with calibration disks and bringing up a 0% field will show you exactly where the black levels are. With the AVS disk you can bring up windows in the near black section that are in 1% steps. The window is an advantage as you can use those to set the brightness level easily using a 1% window. Adjust so that the 1% can just be seen in a dark room.

 

Sony has done a pretty good job in the implementation of edge lighting on this set, FALD should have been used on a set of this caliber and price. Moving off angle as little as 30 degrees will produce a slight blue tinge to the blacks on my set, at 60 degrees they are blue, and the picture begins is washed out. The vertical position of your eyes should be center of the screen height, it does not take much to throw a lot of the picture quality off. If you were to freeze a scene on the set, walk up to it 2 to 3 feet away, put your eyes at the center of the screen, and then move up or down and you can see what the effect is.

 

One thing I notice on my set, the black level will elevate if there is anything on a black screen, eg a station logo on the bottom of the screen, the rest of the screen will lighten up a little. I also see where the letterbox will lighten and dim as the scene gets brighter or darker, and once during a fast action scene it seemed to strobe.


quovadis123's Avatar quovadis123 06:37 AM 10-13-2013

Guys,

we only have to put up with this clouding one year...next year Sony will make the same tv with Full array...


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:41 AM 10-13-2013

@ Keith,

 

I agree with what you say WRT LED/LCD technology, except remember that I commented that my HX909 with FALD has near-perfect black levels.  I am not unhappy by any means with the X900--its picture in most cases is quite remarkable.  However, as you might have seen, several responders indicated that they are seeing closer to 100% black than I am, and I initially wanted to make sure it wasn't a calibration issue.

 

I read the S&V article.  Something to look forward to in a couple of years!


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:44 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vega509 View Post
 

 

Testing with calibration disks and bringing up a 0% field will show you exactly where the black levels are. With the AVS disk you can bring up windows in the near black section that are in 1% steps. The window is an advantage as you can use those to set the brightness level easily using a 1% window. Adjust so that the 1% can just be seen in a dark room.

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip.  I have the AVS HD disk and will try this out this evening.


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 06:46 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by quovadis123 View Post
 

Guys,

we only have to put up with this clouding one year...next year Sony will make the same tv with Full array...

 

This coming from the guy who purchased the X900 for his bedroom, and is considering purchasing the 84" 4K for his viewing room.

 

Not all of us have this amount of money to be making upgrades every year...;)


vega509's Avatar vega509 06:54 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by quovadis123 View Post
 

Guys,

we only have to put up with this clouding one year...next year Sony will make the same tv with Full array...


can you post a link to this, it may just be worth waiting for FALD on this set.


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 06:56 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchn View Post

Dunno. My black screen looks like the set is off. In fact all of my blacks are pretty close as to fade into the bezel. Only between inputs do I see anything like that but only a spot or two on the left. Never during content.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatlesschimp View Post

Same

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

my black screen looks like its off as well...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quovadis123 View Post
 

I see black clouding on white

I see white clouding on black

 

very faint

 

TOP OF TV

horizontal length 

 

I think what is happening here is that the initial excitement of the increased resolution is now starting to wear off a little and the underlying quality of the TV is becoming the focus. I am sure that this series of Sony sets is very, very good indeed. But even Sony cannot defeat the inherent limitations of LCD technology. They may have made the very best LCD screen that it is possible to make (I am hypothesising) but it will still be limited by the underlying LCD technology. And terrific blacks is not a characteristic of LCD screens.

 

We used to say if you want blacks, choose plasma, if you want brightness, choose LCD. Both techs have their place and work for different people in different environments. Where the main aim is to watch movies in a darkened room, plasma still reigns supreme. Where the main aim is to watch TV and sports in a normally lit room, LCD is the choice of most. It is not, IMO, a question of whether one is better than another, but whether one is better for your purpose than another. 

 

Now we have a third factor in the form of higher resolution. If one wants the ultimate resolution, then currently one has to choose LCD. LCD may not be the best choice for some (eg those wanting the very best black levels) so they have to decide which is more important: 4K or black levels. Personally, being someone who only really watches movies, I would go for the black levels. Others would go for 4K.

 

I have met a lot of people recently who believe that the designation "4K" is some sort of badge of quality for a TV. It is not, of course. It is simply a statement of the resolution that the TV can achieve - all of the underlying benefits and drawbacks of the LCD technology are still there. What’s the betting that we will soon see some really awful screens, but with 4K - and they will be marketed as 'automatically superior' to the 1080p alternatives. I have pointed out to my friends that 4K is not an assurance of quality but I can see that they are skeptical. I have told them that a very good 1080p TV will still be a better choice than a mediocre 4K TV (when these mediocre versions hit the shops and Walmart) but I can see they don't quite believe me :)

 

I would recommend everyone has their screens professionally calibrated or that they buy the Calman software and a colorimeter and learn how to do it themselves (it isn’t hard once one has got the hang of it). The difference between an uncalibrated screen and a calibrated one is very significant, no matter how well one believes one has set up the TV using a calibration disc like S&M etc. A calibration will enable the TV to display the very best blacks it is capable of, along with the best colour gamut, greyscale etc. For a TV as expensive as these Sony 4Ks, I'd say calibration was not a luxury but an essential, if one is ever going to see what they really can do.

 

I hope nobody minds my poking my nose in. I am in neither plasma nor LCD camp as I nowadays use a PJ, so I think I can be unbiased in my views. Hope so anyway,  Enjoy your TVs!!


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 06:59 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

@ Keith,

 

I agree with what you say WRT LED/LCD technology, except remember that I commented that my HX909 with FALD has near-perfect black levels.  I am not unhappy by any means with the X900--its picture in most cases is quite remarkable.  However, as you might have seen, several responders indicated that they are seeing closer to 100% black than I am, and I initially wanted to make sure it wasn't a calibration issue.

 

I read the S&V article.  Something to look forward to in a couple of years!

 

Yes, but if they are uncalibrated they are almost certainly crushing the blacks, and you, with a calibrated set, are not.  FALD is pretty good I agree (not as good as plasma but pretty good) but AIUI these 4K sets are not FALD. A poster just above has commented that they ought to be at the price, and I have some sympathy with that view :)


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:01 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vega509 View Post
 

 

Testing with calibration disks and bringing up a 0% field will show you exactly where the black levels are. With the AVS disk you can bring up windows in the near black section that are in 1% steps. The window is an advantage as you can use those to set the brightness level easily using a 1% window. Adjust so that the 1% can just be seen in a dark room.

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip.  I have the AVS HD disk and will try this out this evening.

 

Jerry, I am not convinced that adjusting a 1% window so that you can "just see it in a dark room" is the best way to go for you. You have calibration software and hardware and know how to use it - you will always get the best result by setting black level (brightness) according to the tried and tested methods.  The 1% window trick might help those who have no other way to do it.


AustinJerry's Avatar AustinJerry 07:07 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Jerry, I am not convinced that adjusting a 1% window so that you can "just see it in a dark room" is the best way to go for you. You have calibration software and hardware and know how to use it - you will always get the best result by setting black level (brightness) according to the tried and tested methods.  The 1% window trick might help those who have no other way to do it.

You are completely correct, Keith. I only intend to look at the AVS disk to see what it reveals. I am confident that my calibration has the X900 performing as well as it can, thanks in large part to your guidance.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:07 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

@ Keith,

 

I agree with what you say WRT LED/LCD technology, except remember that I commented that my HX909 with FALD has near-perfect black levels.  I am not unhappy by any means with the X900--its picture in most cases is quite remarkable.  However, as you might have seen, several responders indicated that they are seeing closer to 100% black than I am, and I initially wanted to make sure it wasn't a calibration issue.

 

I read the S&V article.  Something to look forward to in a couple of years!

 

The technology I was referring to is all LCD. LED is just the method chosen to illuminate the screen. LED brings advantages over cold cathode tubes for lighting the screen of course and FALD brings even more. I know you know this - just posting it for the sake of completeness.


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:15 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Jerry, I am not convinced that adjusting a 1% window so that you can "just see it in a dark room" is the best way to go for you. You have calibration software and hardware and know how to use it - you will always get the best result by setting black level (brightness) according to the tried and tested methods.  The 1% window trick might help those who have no other way to do it.

You are completely correct, Keith. I only intend to look at the AVS disk to see what it reveals. I am confident that my calibration has the X900 performing as well as it can, thanks in large part to your guidance.

 

:)  I too am sure your X900 is performing as well as it can. Its easy to get obsessed with the downsides of any technology and overlook all the upsides IME.  Now you are calibrated, for your room and viewing conditions, your set is displaying the best black levels it is capable of. All that remains is to enjoy!

 

If one is constantly looking for black level performance then it detracts from the overall enjoyment of the screen. I am not directing this comment at you personally but at the audience at large. I know too many people who 'watch the black levels' and not the movie!  The only time it is important is if the display has a level of black performance which 'takes you out of the movie'. You know what I mean - when you are engrossed in the movie and then, suddenly, a scene comes along where poor black level performance draws inescapable attention to itself. I am sure that this does not apply with the X900.

 

The 1% window is interesting for what it reveals I agree. 


kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:24 AM 10-13-2013

Incidentally, a tip for people who want to improve their black level performance, or at least enjoy the perception of improved contrast performance, is to use a little bias lighting.

 

Bias lighting is a low level illumination from the back of the screen, in an otherwise darkened room. You can read about it here:

 

http://www.antec.com/soundscience/hdtv-bias-lighting.php

 

I bought this product from Amazon in the UK - I am sure it will be available in Amazon US too, and elsewhere:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Antec-SoundScience-HDTV-Lighting-Temperature/dp/B007TG5EG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381670780&sr=8-1&keywords=bias+lighting

 

The strip is fixed (self-adhesive) to the back of the TV and plugged into an available USB port on the TV. I used this on my last plasma TV (Panasonic VT50) and even on my Kuro. The increased perception of superior black levels is amazing. The strip is wide enough for a 65 inch TV.

 

The strip linked to has a neutral colour temperature which is important. If the rear illumination has a colour bias it will affect the calibrated image.

 

Jerry, if you had this on your screen and put the Oppo splash screen up, it would be jet black. Worth considering if you watch in a darkened room or one with dimmed lighting.


mroadster158's Avatar mroadster158 07:49 AM 10-13-2013
I actually have one of those light strips that was installed on the back of my 60"SXRD set when it was calibrated years ago. Forgot the brand. I will experiment with it when I get my x900 delivered next week.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:54 AM 10-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mroadster158 View Post

I actually have one of those light strips that was installed on the back of my 60"SXRD set when it was calibrated years ago. Forgot the brand. I will experiment with it when I get my x900 delivered next week.

 

I can strongly recommend bias lighting. Besides improving the perceived contrast it also helps avoid eye strain as the pupils don't have to open and close to the same extent all the time. 

 

The difference in perceived contrast is astonishing though. And all for a few bucks.


flinchn's Avatar flinchn 08:01 AM 10-13-2013
I have an led light strip behind my tv. Easier on the eyes with extended dark viewing. The fact remains I'm seeing true black on all content (including sidebars) without any crush or lack of shadow detail.
Tags: Sony Xbr 65x900a 65 Inch 1080p 120hz 3d Led 4k Ultra Hdtv , Sony Xbr 55x900a 55 Inch 4k Ultra Hd 3d Led Tv
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