The Backlighting and Panel Type Thread - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I have a feeling that a thread already exists for this, but I am having difficulty locating it.
Big C is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 06:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Brightness, per se, is not really an issue with LCD screens anymore. Color fidelity is another matter. LEDs are actually closer to CCFL than you'd think, because
they are powered by 'hybrid' blue LEDs with yellow phosphor. CCFLs vary much more than LEDs, though, because they can have varying formulas for phosphor.
My own experience is with a wide-gamut Toshiba Regza CCFL and a Sharp Quattron LED set. Overall, I prefer the Sharp for clean color reproduction, but there
are certain shades of green and aquamarine that the older Toshiba manages to do better. Plus, the Sharp is weak in red tones which clip easily before calibration.
For skin tones, the Sharp blows the Toshiba out of the water with its yellow pixel at the ready. I'd like to see a set powered by a tungsten filament to get back to a
full-spectrum source. Phosphors and LEDs are 'spikey' in regions of the spectrum that don't correspond with human color perception...
johnfull is offline  
post #3 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Brightness, per se, is not really an issue with LCD screens anymore. Color fidelity is another matter. LEDs are actually closer to CCFL than you'd think, because
they are powered by 'hybrid' blue LEDs with yellow phosphor. CCFLs vary much more than LEDs, though, because they can have varying formulas for phosphor.
My own experience is with a wide-gamut Toshiba Regza CCFL and a Sharp Quattron LED set. Overall, I prefer the Sharp for clean color reproduction, but there
are certain shades of green and aquamarine that the older Toshiba manages to do better. Plus, the Sharp is weak in red tones which clip easily before calibration.
For skin tones, the Sharp blows the Toshiba out of the water with its yellow pixel at the ready. I'd like to see a set powered by a tungsten filament to get back to a
full-spectrum source. Phosphors and LEDs are 'spikey' in regions of the spectrum that don't correspond with human color perception...
While I may prefer to watch the TV during the day with my dark, acoustic drapes closed, others in my family insist on keeping the house more cheery, opening the drapes, and letting the daylight in. This is why I'm trying to find a panel capable of producing eye-piercing peak brightness levels.
Big C is offline  
post #4 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Brightness, per se, is not really an issue with LCD screens anymore. Color fidelity is another matter. LEDs are actually closer to CCFL than you'd think, because
they are powered by 'hybrid' blue LEDs with yellow phosphor. CCFLs vary much more than LEDs, though, because they can have varying formulas for phosphor.
My own experience is with a wide-gamut Toshiba Regza CCFL and a Sharp Quattron LED set. Overall, I prefer the Sharp for clean color reproduction, but there
are certain shades of green and aquamarine that the older Toshiba manages to do better. Plus, the Sharp is weak in red tones which clip easily before calibration.
For skin tones, the Sharp blows the Toshiba out of the water with its yellow pixel at the ready. I'd like to see a set powered by a tungsten filament to get back to a
full-spectrum source. Phosphors and LEDs are 'spikey' in regions of the spectrum that don't correspond with human color perception...
As far as color accuracy, do you think a Plasma would be better? If so, I guess I could always either try to convince my family to keep the drapes closed while I watch TV, or else, just watch TV at night.
Big C is offline  
post #5 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 07:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Plasmas have a lot of drawbacks and LCDs are getting better all the time.
The green on a plasma has a bit of an edge over the LCDs I've seen, but not by much anymore.
My Sharp Quattron produces accurate color after calibration, but the intensity of the brightest colors doesn't match plasma.
The 3D on the Sharp is very very good, but I've heard that plasma has an edge, though with smaller screen size and size does matter.
You should look at pictures and form your own conclusion. A lot of people like the cold look of the LED sets. I had to calibrate that look out of my own.
CCFL is getting harder to find. Plasma is on its way out as well. I think you'd do better to compare brands of LED backlit LCD sets...
johnfull is offline  
post #6 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

Plasmas have a lot of drawbacks and LCDs are getting better all the time.
The green on a plasma has a bit of an edge over the LCDs I've seen, but not by much anymore.
My Sharp Quattron produces accurate color after calibration, but the intensity of the brightest colors doesn't match plasma.
The 3D on the Sharp is very very good, but I've heard that plasma has an edge, though with smaller screen size and size does matter.
You should look at pictures and form your own conclusion. A lot of people like the cold look of the LED sets. I had to calibrate that look out of my own.
CCFL is getting harder to find. Plasma is on its way out as well. I think you'd do better to compare brands of LED backlit LCD sets...

"A lot of draw backs?" I'd like to hear a bunch of them.
jbug is offline  
post #7 of 15 Old 05-22-2013, 12:43 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Limited global brightness, image burn-in, dithering at low light setting, high heat output and high energy consumption, glare from the glass screen.
Off the top of my head. That said, I've enjoyed watching plasma sets as well...
johnfull is offline  
post #8 of 15 Old 05-23-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Before I begin, I'm not 'fanboying' anything. Most of the criticism you posted had nothing to do with the picture quality, except for the dithering, which is only noticeable at low levels. I assume you mean low panel brightness levels. On one hand, if I could convince everyone to keep the dark, acoustic drapes closed when I watch TV, the Panasonic TC-P42S60 42-inch plasma would save me money, yet give me the best picture quality. On the other hand, that would be the same thing as saying that in order for your audio system to have the best sound quality, you can't turn the volume too high. What good is the best sound if you can't hear it? Therefore, what good is the best color if you can't see it? Panel brightness should be regarded in the same way as audio volume. Here's the way I see it (no pun intended). The luminance range is like the soft-to-loud dynamic range of audio, while the chrominance range is like the bass-to-mid-to-treble range and tonal characteristics of audio. Do you get where I'm going with this? I don't want to watch a black-and-white TV and listen to it through a megaphone, but at least if it's bright and loud, it will be seen and heard in any lighting conditions and over any noise in the background. But I've seen and heard better than b&w/megaphone. So I know it's out there. I'm just trying to find something under 50 inches that will satisfy my demands.
Big C is offline  
post #9 of 15 Old 05-24-2013, 02:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Whoa! Before we get all synesthesia on the flavor of blue, let's stick to the facts. Plasma has better black levels than any LCD. LCD is improving in this area, but still.
Global brightness means a picture with a large area of brightness -- the total number of pixels that are at or near maximum current (brightness) is limited by the power supply.
The LCD is going to be brighter, but with compromised black levels. Which is more important to you? Plasma uses far more energy. Do you love your planet or not?rolleyes.gif
johnfull is offline  
post #10 of 15 Old 05-24-2013, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I have tested four Sony LCD panels, including one from 2010, at least two from 2012/2013, and another that I don't know exactly what year it was from. When making my settings, I thought the black levels were closer to plasmas and CRTs than I expected. Of course, if OLED ever goes mainstream, I think the whole CRT vs. plasma vs. CCF vs. full-array LED vs. direct LED vs. edge LED crap will be all over, because we'll have deep black levels, bright whites, accurate colors, and use less energy, and everyone will be happy.
Big C is offline  
post #11 of 15 Old 05-24-2013, 08:48 AM
Senior Member
 
kdog750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

I have tested four Sony LCD panels, including one from 2010, at least two from 2012/2013, and another that I don't know exactly what year it was from. When making my settings, I thought the black levels were closer to plasmas and CRTs than I expected. Of course, if OLED ever goes mainstream, I think the whole CRT vs. plasma vs. CCF vs. full-array LED vs. direct LED vs. edge LED crap will be all over, because we'll have deep black levels, bright whites, accurate colors, and use less energy, and everyone will be happy.

I was anxiously anticipating OLED but after reading of their drawbacks, I'm not so sure OLED will be the ultimate solution. Some of the big issues are longevity, the blue oled degredation much faster than the other colors, and burn in/retention at a higher level than plasma. Also, several people at the CES reported that the blacks on OLED are very glossy instead of flat black. So while the blacks would be much deeper than plasma or LED, you would see reflections in the blacks which I read is very distracting.

Each format has drawbacks and I don't see OLED being any different in this regard.
kdog750 is offline  
post #12 of 15 Old 05-25-2013, 01:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
johnfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Yeah, and too bad about Texas Intstrument versus Toshiba/Canon in the SED debacle...
johnfull is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 05-26-2013, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
IanD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

I was anxiously anticipating OLED but after reading of their drawbacks, I'm not so sure OLED will be the ultimate solution. Some of the big issues are longevity, the blue oled degredation much faster than the other colors, and burn in/retention at a higher level than plasma. Also, several people at the CES reported that the blacks on OLED are very glossy instead of flat black. So while the blacks would be much deeper than plasma or LED, you would see reflections in the blacks which I read is very distracting.

The same longevity problem was experienced with the initial blue lasers for Bluray, but it was eventually overcome. Longevity wouldn't be an issue if the panels are easily and cheaply replaceable and recyclable: an upgrade every 2 years should be factored into the product life-cycle. Like plasma "burn-in" can be mitigated by pre-aging since the degree of brightness reduction is greater the younger the panel is and reduces after a bit of aging. I expect the glossy blacks is just due to the surface finish: no reason a matte surface couldn't be used, apart from the pop factor that most have been conditioned to.

The manufacturers wouldn't want to release flawless OLED initially anyway as there would be little room for improvement, plus it might anger the consumer to think they had been sitting on such impressively better technology for so long whilst still flogging LCD and plasma. OLED will initially be just better enough to justify the high price: it will be like plasma all over again.
IanD is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 05-27-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Thanks for your support. I have removed the poll because I don't think I'll be able to fit a CCF backlit or plasma panel with a viewing area more than 42 inches on my bottom shelf. However, if I go with an LED backlit LCD panel, I can fit a viewing area of up to 47 inches, and possibly 50 inches. I finally have it narrowed down to two models by Sony. Here's the way I see it. Insignia, JVC, LG, Panasonic, Philips, Sharp, Samsung, Toshiba, and Visio are more home appliance oriented. Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, and Yamaha are aimed more at sound and picture quality. Sound and picture quality are more important to me than ease of use, consumer friendliness, and functionality.
Big C is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 05-31-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I know that the best type of panel would be a full-array LED backlit IPS panel, but I don't know if one actually exists. What would do better in a brightly lit room with the curtains open?

Direct LED VA (Samsung EH4000-6000, Sony KDL-32R400A/40R450A/46R453A)

Edge LED IPS (New LGs, Panasonic L series S60/ST60/VT60, and Sony KDL-47W802A/55W802A)
Big C is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Panasonic 42 Inch Plasma Hdtv Tc P42s60 , Samsung Un32eh4000 32 Inch 720p 60 Hz Led Hdtv
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off