Vizio to offer FALD in 2014 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 12-14-2013, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like Vizio will offer full array local dimming across all their 2014 led Tv lines.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-add-full-array-led-backlighting-2014-tvs-0

This is the best news yet. I guess now I'll wait a few months before buying.

A different source stated more models. Not. Just the E series.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/vizio-led-backlit-lcd-tvs,news-17896.html
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post #2 of 61 Old 12-14-2013, 08:25 PM
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Nice! Hopefully the screen will not be a mirror...
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post #3 of 61 Old 12-19-2013, 08:08 PM
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Can't wait to hear what Katzmaier et al have to say during CES!

His newest article basically boils down to his hopes for 2014 picture quality (in absence of Plasma) being pinned on full-array local dimming to make a return!

"Help me, local dimming Kenobi; you're my only hope

If you're not familiar with local dimming, it's a technology that allows LED LCDs to overcome one of their biggest picture quality problems -- grayish, washed-out renditions of black -- by selectively dimming and brightening different parts of the screen. Done right, it works wonders. The best-performing LED LCD TVs of 2013, including the Samsung F8000/F9000, the Sony W900A and the Vizio E and M series were all local dimmers.

In 2014, I expect to see even more TV makers introduce local dimming, and migrate the capability down to less-expensive models. I'd also love to see the return of full-array local dimming, last seen on the Sony XBR-HX950, in high-end models."

Read the full article here - TVs at CES 2014: Bye-bye 1080p plasma, hello 4K LED LCD
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post #4 of 61 Old 12-20-2013, 05:18 PM
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ran across this on new Vizio coming out in 2014 http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20131218PD217.html

I don't know if the new 4K's coming out will be passive or active 3d because sharp is making the panels.
I wonder what the price is going to be for the 70 with local diming.
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post #5 of 61 Old 12-21-2013, 12:41 PM
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Great news. If Vizio stays passive, they are in the running for my money.
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post #6 of 61 Old 12-21-2013, 03:06 PM
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I want real verification on how many zones they've got before I get all excited about this.  If it's 4x4, then I'm not doing handstands any time soon.


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post #7 of 61 Old 12-22-2013, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I want real verification on how many zones they've got before I get all excited about this.  If it's 4x4, then I'm not doing handstands any time soon.

I think I read that they were using 16 zones. But I don't know on what size TV that was mentioned to be on.
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post #8 of 61 Old 12-22-2013, 05:36 AM
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Vizio 2014 E series will be FALD - 16 zones (which is kind of a joke smile.gif )
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-add-full-array-led-backlighting-2014-tvs-0


for comparison a few Vizio FALDs from the past:
Vizio XVT472SV (47'') 80 dimming zones
Vizio VF552XVT (55'') 80 dimming zones
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post #9 of 61 Old 12-22-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Vizio 2014 E series will be FALD - 16 zones (which is kind of a joke smile.gif )
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-add-full-array-led-backlighting-2014-tvs-0


for comparison a few Vizio FALDs from the past:
Vizio XVT472SV (47'') 80 dimming zones
Vizio VF552XVT (55'') 80 dimming zones

If you compare this with edge lit local diming it is a step forward,,full array back lit will help with the clouding issue on edge lit led.
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post #10 of 61 Old 12-23-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Vizio 2014 E series will be FALD - 16 zones (which is kind of a joke smile.gif )
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-add-full-array-led-backlighting-2014-tvs-0


for comparison a few Vizio FALDs from the past:
Vizio XVT472SV (47'') 80 dimming zones
Vizio VF552XVT (55'') 80 dimming zones

Actually, the algorithms employed to govern each zone are so much more advanced now, those 16 zones will no doubt out-perform those earlier models with much more zones. The algorithms employed by the earlier models were so simple by comparison they needed more zones to be effective. Vizio clearly has good code based on 16 zones as is now utilized on their current edge-lit sets. The only thing changing is that the light source will now be behind the image - where it belongs! Other than light-bleed, ghosting, flash lighting etc - their current edge-lit sets have incredibly accurate, natural looking color balance. As stated, Vizio is making this move to IMPROVE picture quality with the intention being to reduce the above mentioned flaws inherent to edge-lit sets that plaque every manufacturer - not just Vizio. I hope we see others brands follow and return to this modality given the improved coding behind local dimming. I can't wait to hear the news coming out of CES this year from all the brands!
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post #11 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post

Actually, the algorithms employed to govern each zone are so much more advanced now, those 16 zones will no doubt out-perform those earlier models with much more zones. The algorithms employed by the earlier models were so simple by comparison they needed more zones to be effective. Vizio clearly has good code based on 16 zones as is now utilized on their current edge-lit sets. The only thing changing is that the light source will now be behind the image - where it belongs! Other than light-bleed, ghosting, flash lighting etc - their current edge-lit sets have incredibly accurate, natural looking color balance. As stated, Vizio is making this move to IMPROVE picture quality with the intention being to reduce the above mentioned flaws inherent to edge-lit sets that plaque every manufacturer - not just Vizio. I hope we see others brands follow and return to this modality given the improved coding behind local dimming. I can't wait to hear the news coming out of CES this year from all the brands!

Well said Peter.
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post #12 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post
 
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Vizio 2014 E series will be FALD - 16 zones (which is kind of a joke smile.gif )
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-add-full-array-led-backlighting-2014-tvs-0


for comparison a few Vizio FALDs from the past:
Vizio XVT472SV (47'') 80 dimming zones
Vizio VF552XVT (55'') 80 dimming zones

Actually, the algorithms employed to govern each zone are so much more advanced now, those 16 zones will no doubt out-perform those earlier models with much more zones.

 

?????????

 

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you basing this on?  A zone is a fixed region in screen space.  In the classic full moon example, if it happens to lie entirely within that large region, that entire large region must be backlit to the luminosity needed for the moon.  And if it borders two regions then two must be lit.  Something with more zones will have smaller zones.  This means that you can have a much smaller amount of the screen backlit.


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post #13 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 09:18 AM
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^^^^
Yeah. Trying to defend fewer zones - especially differences like 80 v 16 - is futile. FALD is all well and good, but with only a handful of zones I'm not sure that's better than the very best edge lit sets.

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post #14 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 09:40 AM
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Not to defend VIZIO here but theres another point to be made. While the backlight will have 16 zones you also have to figure the actual panel. Now I'm not gonna say that VIZIO's panel is gonna be awesome but with the new technology implemented by the manufacturers that they buy from it may make these as good as or maybe even better sets than the older models with more zones. While I'm kind of doubting it deep inside I promise to stay cautiously optimistic.

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The proof is in the pudding so as for me, I'll just wait to hear and read more about these sets. I hope the 16 zones works out for the best.
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post #16 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbug 
The proof is in the pudding so as for me, I'll just wait to hear and read more about these sets. I hope the 16 zones works out for the best.
You do not need pudding. Even the 2012 Sony HX950 was criticized because of its zones. I believe it was 96 should be above 200.. wink.gif
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post #17 of 61 Old 12-24-2013, 08:22 PM
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?????????

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you basing this on?  A zone is a fixed region in screen space.  In the classic full moon example, if it happens to lie entirely within that large region, that entire large region must be backlit to the luminosity needed for the moon.  And if it borders two regions then two must be lit.  Something with more zones will have smaller zones.  This means that you can have a much smaller amount of the screen backlit.

I had a contractor out to the house a couple months back and I told him him I was thinking of buying the 70 inch M-series Vizio. My sister has the 60 and the picture is absolutely beautiful - calibrated it is one of the most accurate, natural looking color balance LED sets I've ever seen. The only draw back to her set to me is the light bleed and consequential issues with uniformity. Anyway, he told me his nephew works for Vizio and that I may want to wait. I couldn't leave it at that and asked if I could get his email. He didn't tell me much at first as the news wasn't out at that time. I have spoke to him on the phone since and he says the PQ difference between 16 zone full-array and the 16 zones edge-lit is almost a complete resolution of the light bleed issue. He did say the color is slightly improved as well - a bonus. He explained alot in "programmer speak" about the local dimming and how each zone can act as a variable gradient rather than all or none anymore. I'm sure I am still not doing justice in explaining what I was told but suffice to say I was impressed and since I was already interested in the M-series as an edge-lit, I was thrilled to hear it was being improved upon to address the issues I had reservations about while still being an affordable big screen.

But, with all that said, I am a pragmatist and will wait to hear the reviews and better yet to demo one for myself before I count my chickens! Also - the pricing is supposed to at or near depending on size of where it is now.

We should start hearing word out of CES on the 7th.
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post #18 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

?????????

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you basing this on?  A zone is a fixed region in screen space.  In the classic full moon example, if it happens to lie entirely within that large region, that entire large region must be backlit to the luminosity needed for the moon.  And if it borders two regions then two must be lit.  Something with more zones will have smaller zones.  This means that you can have a much smaller amount of the screen backlit.

I had a contractor out to the house a couple months back and I told him him I was thinking of buying the 70 inch M-series Vizio. My sister has the 60 and the picture is absolutely beautiful - calibrated it is one of the most accurate, natural looking color balance LED sets I've ever seen. The only draw back to her set to me is the light bleed and consequential issues with uniformity. Anyway, he told me his nephew works for Vizio and that I may want to wait. I couldn't leave it at that and asked if I could get his email. He didn't tell me much at first as the news wasn't out at that time. I have spoke to him on the phone since and he says the PQ difference between 16 zone full-array and the 16 zones edge-lit is almost a complete resolution of the light bleed issue. He did say the color is slightly improved as well - a bonus. He explained alot in "programmer speak" about the local dimming and how each zone can act as a variable gradient rather than all or none anymore. I'm sure I am still not doing justice in explaining what I was told but suffice to say I was impressed and since I was already interested in the M-series as an edge-lit, I was thrilled to hear it was being improved upon to address the issues I had reservations about while still being an affordable big screen.

But, with all that said, I am a pragmatist and will wait to hear the reviews and better yet to demo one for myself before I count my chickens! Also - the pricing is supposed to at or near depending on size of where it is now.

We should start hearing word out of CES on the 7th.

 

Sounds like you're confusing two things.  Yes, the differences between direct (or any FALD variant) and edge lit are known (and not limited to mere bleed), but given two FALD systems, you cannot have an algorithm solve the problem of not having enough zones.  What you may be referring to are the differences between edge zones and direct lit zones and that primarily has to do with the number available, the shape of them, and how equally they are spread across the screen.


Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #19 of 61 Old 12-25-2013, 10:18 PM
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^This. It's like the old saying "there's no replacement for displacement". I'm sure by now LCD manufacturers have come up with some pretty impressive computer calculation ability to adjust the dynamic brightness of those individual zones rapidly based on the content displaying, but you will never achieve with 16 zones anything near the precision of 80 or several hundred zones of dimming. At some point physics just get in the way.
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post #20 of 61 Old 12-27-2013, 03:45 PM
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Let's look at it this way! Choice one is edge lit and local diming with maybe 16 zones. Choice two is full array of led's and 16 zones of diming.
Choice one clouding because it is edge lit. Choice two the whole back with leds which means no clouding.
Wow I think I am pro choice!
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post #21 of 61 Old 12-27-2013, 07:55 PM
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Let's look at it this way! Choice one is edge lit and local diming with maybe 16 zones. Choice two is full array of led's and 16 zones of diming.
Choice one clouding because it is edge lit. Choice two the whole back with leds which means no clouding.
Wow I think I am pro choice!

WORD! biggrin.gif

Anyone hear any rumors as to whether or not any other brands are bringing full-array back to the table - and more cost-effectively than years past? I don't mind paying up to get a good full-array with local dimming set - I just don't want to get raped! I know the Vizio's are supposed to be at or near current pricing but if someone is offering a better FALD set in the 65-70 inch size range I wouldn't even mind paying an additional grand or so to get it. I don't have the temperament or patience to play the return game (sometimes several times) to get a "good one" with these edge-lit pieces of sh*t. It shouldn't be such a royal pain in the ass to get a decent set at a good value!
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post #22 of 61 Old 12-27-2013, 09:59 PM
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I don't have the temperament or patience to play the return game (sometimes several times) to get a "good one" with these edge-lit pieces of sh*t.

LOL, that made me chuckle.
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post #23 of 61 Old 12-29-2013, 08:35 AM
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I found this on Digitimes and when the page becomes available I will post it.


Taiwan makers poised to produce 15mm LED BLUs for Ultra HD TVs

Dec 6, 10:44

This will push FALD in coming LCD TV.
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post #24 of 61 Old 12-31-2013, 11:44 PM
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One short week to go - hope the word is good!
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post #25 of 61 Old 12-31-2013, 11:53 PM
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I found this on Digitimes and when the page becomes available I will post it.


Taiwan makers poised to produce 15mm LED BLUs for Ultra HD TVs

Dec 6, 10:44

This will push FALD in coming LCD TV.

Here's the article bud...




Taiwan makers poised to produce 15mm LED BLUs for Ultra HD TVs
Julian Ho, Taipei; Adam Hwang, DIGITIMES [Friday 6 December 2013]


Taiwan-based LED packaging houses, mainly Everlight Electronics, Lextar Electronics and Unity Opto Technology, are set to start producing 15mm OD (optical distance) backlight units (BLUs) specifically for use in direct-type backlit Ultra HD LCD TVs at the end of 2013, according to Taiwan-based supply chain makers.

15mm OD BLUs can reduce the thickness of direct-type LED-backlit LCD TVs, and the number of LED chips used in Ultra HD TV BLUs is 1.5-2 times that for Full HD models of the same size, the sources said.

As China- and South Korea-based vendors have been promoting direct-type LED-backlit LCD TVs, related models are expected to account for 70-80% of Ultra HD LCD TVs in 2014, the sources indicated.

Lextar posted consolidated revenues of NT$1.167 billion (US$39.4 million) for November, growing 10.2% on month and 49.52% on year, and NT$12.636 billion for January-November, rising 35.39% on year. Currently, Lextar has 70% of consolidated revenues coming from LED backlighting and 30% from LED lighting.
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post #27 of 61 Old 01-03-2014, 06:09 PM
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PeterNincompoop : Thanks for the post

You bet bud!


Looks like the big-boxes are dumping the current Vizio edge-lits hard in anticipation of the new lines...

Best Buy - $200 off
Costco in-store - $350 off

Leaving the prices at $1999.00 and $1850.00 respectively for the 70 inch M-series...links below for anyone interested!



Best Buy...
Best Buy - 70 inch M-series sale


Costco...
Costco warehouse coupon offers
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post #28 of 61 Old 01-03-2014, 09:06 PM
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Sounds like you're confusing two things.  Yes, the differences between direct (or any FALD variant) and edge lit are known (and not limited to mere bleed), but given two FALD systems, you cannot have an algorithm solve the problem of not having enough zones. 

I think that this would be true if 1 zone = 1 LED, but each zone controls a number of LED's, so if the control logic is to set all of he LED's in a zone to the brightness required for the brightest object in the zone, then a large number of zones is required. If, however, you can control the LED's in a zone in a gradient pattern with differing brightness levels across the zone, then fewer zones would be required to achieve the same, or possibly better, effect.
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post #29 of 61 Old 01-04-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sounds like you're confusing two things.  Yes, the differences between direct (or any FALD variant) and edge lit are known (and not limited to mere bleed), but given two FALD systems, you cannot have an algorithm solve the problem of not having enough zones. 

I think that this would be true if 1 zone = 1 LED, but each zone controls a number of LED's, so if the control logic is to set all of he LED's in a zone to the brightness required for the brightest object in the zone, then a large number of zones is required. If, however, you can control the LED's in a zone in a gradient pattern with differing brightness levels across the zone, then fewer zones would be required to achieve the same, or possibly better, effect.

 

(?)  How?  (And this question also goes to whoever it was that gave you a thumbs up).  In a 4x4 grid you have a zone 1/4th of the screen wide and 1/4th of the screen high.  If you have more LEDs (I don't care WHAT the software is doing), then guess what, you have more zones.  There would be no point in ganging them up and calling them 16 zone for no reason.  Do you have a link to explain any of this?


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post #30 of 61 Old 01-04-2014, 09:33 AM
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I have to keep reminding myself that we're talking Vizio here rolleyes.gif
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