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post #451 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"I do not think these Japanese TVs will ever replace my Curtis Mathes, Zenith or Sylvania. Who can take seriously brands like Panasonic or Sony?"
"I do not think these Korean TVs will replace my beloved Japanese brands like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and Mitsubishi. Who can take seriously brands like Lucky Goldstar or Samsung? They just make cheap junk!"
"I do not think these Vizios will become mainstream. How can they possibly be the equal of my Sony, my LG or my Samsung?"


The same mistake was made with cars... dismissing Toyota and Datsun... then dismissing Hyundai and Kia...

The same mistake was made with computers... dismissing DEC's minicomputer... Apple's personal computer... then its tablets....

Vizio is using Christensen's low-end disruption theory with some twists. If they fail, someone will follow them down that path....


+1000

Chris' comments had me about to post this exact thing but you beat me to it.
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post #452 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

+1

The only question is whether the disruption will happen in 2014 or not until 2015...

-fafrd

p.s. the alliance between Dolby and Vizio is an interesting twist - do we have any idea when they atarted working together? Perhaps when Vizio decided to "start with a clean sheet'?

The difference is that you think the disruption is extremely low prices for the same technology. The disruption is the entry of the market itself, while providing technological innovation. Typically for the purposes of entering a higher profit market. What you are suggesting is entering a new market, providing innovation and maintaining the same profit rate that they are used to. This is where your theory is off. They are entering this market to make more profit. There is no incentive the way you have laid things out.

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post #453 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"I do not think these Japanese TVs will ever replace my Curtis Mathes, Zenith or Sylvania. Who can take seriously brands like Panasonic or Sony?"
"I do not think these Korean TVs will replace my beloved Japanese brands like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and Mitsubishi. Who can take seriously brands like Lucky Goldstar or Samsung? They just make cheap junk!"
"I do not think these Vizios will become mainstream. How can they possibly be the equal of my Sony, my LG or my Samsung?"


The same mistake was made with cars... dismissing Toyota and Datsun... then dismissing Hyundai and Kia...

The same mistake was made with computers... dismissing DEC's minicomputer... Apple's personal computer... then its tablets....

Vizio is using Christensen's low-end disruption theory with some twists. If they fail, someone will follow them down that path....
Maybe your right a Hyundai VELOSTER looks to be a sweet ride and there is a few dealers nationwide that double the warranty, 20 year/ 200,000 miles. That's huge......

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post #454 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

You bring up a good point.

Has the 4K spec been finalized?

Seems that the earlier problem was that there wasn't a 4K at 60, only at 30......or something like that.

Anyone know?

The HDMI 2.0 spec was finalized in 9 or 10/13 as I remember. Overall numbers such as 18.2 (or .3) Gbit speed etc. were made public but no details. Based upon published data about Sony's software update for 4k p60 for their 2013 sets they have carried that over to 2014 i.e 10.2 Gbit, 420 and 8 bit. Australian news article called it HDMI 2.0b. From what I have seen, Panasonic makes full HDMI 2.0 chips an those are in their 4k sets.

Have tried to find info on 4k BD for some time. In 9/13 head of spec writing committee (from Pioneer) said he hoped for spec by end of year. Samsung VP quoted at 2014 CES as spec and discs/players by end of 2014. Comments from one of the S&M disc creators appeared to indicate that xvYCC presumably 10 bit was all we were getting for 4k BD. Comments from other respected sources Yesterday says DCI p3; the digital cinema color gamut. My limited knowledge as a DIY calibrator says p3 would be easier to calibrate.

Reason for following this as closely as I can is that I won't buy a 4k set that is not fully capable of reproducing what is on a good 4k BD which means I want 4k BD player and discs before buying the TV. Also, have a Lumagen Radiance and plan to buy their true 4k vp when released. All 2k non BD sources will be output as 4k p60 at 10 or 12 bit so I will need full HDMI 2.0. Would expect buyers of Oppo's 4k BD players to require the samething since like the 103/105 they can be used to scale STB sources.
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post #455 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Maybe your right a Hyundai VELOSTER looks to be a sweet ride and there is a few dealers nationwide that double the warranty, 20 year/ 200,000 miles. That's huge......

Before I let this tangent die, the reason they double an already great warranty is because there are people who still believe Hyundai doesn't make good cars. Those people are wrong, but they remember (correctly) that early Hyundais weren't very good cars. Heck, there are still people in the U.S. who think Toyota is the same company who came here decades ago with those tiny "tin cans" and hasn't changed. They don't see that Toyota produces the highest quality vehicles on earth (on average).

Perceptions can change quickly (Lexus has done very well in the U.S., though it still doesn't really compete well for the high end BMW/Mercedes buyer) or slowly (it's a brand that hasn't really succeeded in Europe). But they change when the circumstances warrant it.

I haven't seen a 2014 Vizio P Series. Until I do, all I know is that it's priced well for what appears to be excellent specs. If it delivers on those specs, however, it will begin to change the perception of some people about Vizio. (I think the 2013s probably already started that, albeit in a smaller way). I will tell you this: I marvel at Vizio's pricing when we go to our Costco pretty regularly. I know it has a higher failure rate and we're not in the market for a TV right now, but with each weekly visit, they are changing my mind a bit here and there.

If I were an OLED dreamer (I suppose I am) and looking to buy a TV now, that P series would feel like a really good choice. It's good enough and cheap enough to hold me until the OLEDs really materialize (heck, the M series might do that for a bit less). Five years ago, I would not have considered a Vizio. Ten years ago, I would not have spent a moment singing the praises of Hyundai. Ten years from now, we are probably debating about whether Hisense is as good as LG yet.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #456 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

The HDMI 2.0 spec was finalized in 9 or 10/13 as I remember. Overall numbers such as 18.2 (or .3) Gbit speed etc. were made public but no details. Based upon published data about Sony's software update for 4k p60 for their 2013 sets they have carried that over to 2014 i.e 10.2 Gbit, 420 and 8 bit. Australian news article called it HDMI 2.0b. From what I have seen, Panasonic makes full HDMI 2.0 chips an those are in their 4k sets.

Have tried to find info on 4k BD for some time. In 9/13 head of spec writing committee (from Pioneer) said he hoped for spec by end of year. Samsung VP quoted at 2014 CES as spec and discs/players by end of 2014. Comments from one of the S&M disc creators appeared to indicate that xvYCC presumably 10 bit was all we were getting for 4k BD. Comments from other respected sources Yesterday says DCI p3; the digital cinema color gamut. My limited knowledge as a DIY calibrator says p3 would be easier to calibrate.

Reason for following this as closely as I can is that I won't buy a 4k set that is not fully capable of reproducing what is on a good 4k BD which means I want 4k BD player and discs before buying the TV. Also, have a Lumagen Radiance and plan to buy their true 4k vp when released. All 2k non BD sources will be output as 4k p60 at 10 or 12 bit so I will need full HDMI 2.0. Would expect buyers of Oppo's 4k BD players to require the samething since like the 103/105 they can be used to scale STB sources.

Does this mean there'll be new OPPO players by the end of the year that are fully HDMI 2.0? I fear my PS3 BD drive is starting to go, but I don't want to buy an Oppo if I'm just going to need a new one for the new specs in a year.
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post #457 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 02:43 PM
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^ A slightly educated guess is that Oppo will be among the first to sell a true 4k BD player. Going from 2k to 4k in BD players isn't going to take the degree of technological innovation that DVD to BD did. Having said that, Oppo's have very good resale value. Sold my 3 year old 83 for roughly 60% of what I paid for the 103.

Regarding full HDMI 2.0 (18.3 Gbit) will be included. If it isn't Oppo's hard won rep for excellence will take a very big hit.
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post #458 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Hisense is as good as LG yet.
Hisense had a really nice booth, there units where nice and flat ! Including OLED !

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post #459 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 08:31 PM
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I don't know why people consider Sony a quality brand anymore. Maybe back it the Trinitron CRT days but since the SXRD RPTV debacle they have lost all credibility in my book. I am hoping my 3 time light engine replaced SXRD can make it until the Vizio R or P series arrive.

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post #460 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"I do not think these Japanese TVs will ever replace my Curtis Mathes, Zenith or Sylvania. Who can take seriously brands like Panasonic or Sony?"
"I do not think these Korean TVs will replace my beloved Japanese brands like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and Mitsubishi. Who can take seriously brands like Lucky Goldstar or Samsung? They just make cheap junk!"
"I do not think these Vizios will become mainstream. How can they possibly be the equal of my Sony, my LG or my Samsung?"

The same mistake was made with cars... dismissing Toyota and Datsun... then dismissing Hyundai and Kia...

The same mistake was made with computers... dismissing DEC's minicomputer... Apple's personal computer... then its tablets....

Vizio is using Christensen's low-end disruption theory with some twists. If they fail, someone will follow them down that path....

Your 1st statement was correct NO JAPANESE TV will replace the Curtis Mathes, Zenith or Sylvania - those 3 build quality is superior to anything built in last 20+ years ( Curtis Mathes being last best year 1982 when all was USA BUILT) those tvs are going for 4 grand or more to people who appreciate USA made and are not plastic made crap.

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I'm sure many people will agree that Vizio had the best TV this CES hands down. Vizio is the only manufacturer offering FALD, Dolby HDR support, 10 bit panel and 4K at a decent price. In a sea of curved TV's and Smart TVs, the Vizio reference series is one of few sets that caters to people like us... people who care most about PQ.

The only downside to the Vizio Reference Series is that ... its a Vizio. People today care about branding and Vizio has gotten a bad name over the years. That glowing "Samsung" or "Sony" logo under the screen is more important than PQ to most Americans. People want something they can brag about and quite frankly, the Vizio brand is not brag worthy yet. The Hyundai analogy is a perfect example. People still look at Hyundai as a cheap knock off brand that makes crappy cars. In reality, the new Hyundai's are fantastic cars. So what did Hyundai do? They made a sub brand called Genesis. The Genesis line is their "premium" cars. The Genesis cars even have a different badge.

In fact, most people don't even know that the Genesis Coupe is a Hyundai. All they know is that it looks nice and performs great. Its not just Hyundai either. Nissan has the Infiniti brand, Toyota has Lexus and Honda has Acura. An even better example would be Volkswagen, who own Audi, Lamborghini and Bugatti. (as you can see I love cars just as much as TVs)

So in my opinion, Vizio should rebrand itself. Keep the P, M and other lines under the Vizio name but put the Reference series under its own branding. Sharp did a similar thing with their Elite TVs. If Vizio did this, I'm sure people would be more receptive to trying out the Reference model (when it finally launches).

After all, doesn't Bugatti Veyron sound better than Volkswagen Veyron?
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post #462 of 529 Old 01-15-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideo1 View Post

Your 1st statement was correct NO JAPANESE TV will replace the Curtis Mathes, Zenith or Sylvania - those 3 build quality is superior to anything built in last 20+ years ( Curtis Mathes being last best year 1982 when all was USA BUILT) those tvs are going for 4 grand or more to people who appreciate USA made and are not plastic made crap.

I'm just going to say it's impossible to argue with logic like this and leave it alone.
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So in my opinion, Vizio should rebrand itself. Keep the P, M and other lines under the Vizio name but put the Reference series under its own branding. Sharp did a similar thing with their Elite TVs. If Vizio did this, I'm sure people would be more receptive to trying out the Reference model (when it finally launches).

That strategy utterly failed for Sharp.

It would be dumber for Vizio.

The whole point of the Reference line would be to lift the brand perception of the Vizio brand. Rename it and you achieve nothing interesting at all. This isn't like the Toyota/Lexus play (which was actually invented by Honda/Acura). And, looking back, those were marginally effective. The Lexus brand is a winner in the U.S., even though it doesn't have the rep of BMW or Mercedes. The Acura brand is largely worthless. The Infiniti brand is not much better. That isn't to say the cars aren't good, just that the commercial success of those marques hasn't been particularly impressive overall.

I think Vizio is well served to see itself as Hyundai, even though Vizio is an American brand. Over time, you change the perception of your brand through quality and value. Given than Vizio has the ability to decimate competitors over the next 1-3 years, it's a good time to do this, too. Tossing the Vizio brand to the bargain bin when the bargain bin is about to get crowded with Hisense, TCL, et al. seems like an especially large strategic error. That's why Vizio is heading another direction.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #463 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 07:45 AM
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The only downside to the Vizio Reference Series is that ... its a Vizio. People today care about branding and Vizio has gotten a bad name over the years.
There where reason they got a bad name over the years. One example, I remember at one time they did not even make parts for there TV's. I have said it many times, we will see when they come out. All speculation as of right now. If not anything there will be is going to be very affordable FALD sets available.

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post #464 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 08:31 AM
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I'm sure many people will agree that Vizio had the best TV this CES hands down. Vizio is the only manufacturer offering FALD, Dolby HDR support, 10 bit panel and 4K at a decent price. In a sea of curved TV's and Smart TVs, the Vizio reference series is one of few sets that caters to people like us... people who care most about PQ.

Two things. This is subjective. We don't actually know a price yet, so how could you possibly know if it will be available for a decent price?(Whatever that is.)

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #465 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 08:35 AM
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I'm just going to say it's impossible to argue with logic like this and leave it alone.
That strategy utterly failed for Sharp.

It would be dumber for Vizio.

The whole point of the Reference line would be to lift the brand perception of the Vizio brand. Rename it and you achieve nothing interesting at all. This isn't like the Toyota/Lexus play (which was actually invented by Honda/Acura). And, looking back, those were marginally effective. The Lexus brand is a winner in the U.S., even though it doesn't have the rep of BMW or Mercedes. The Acura brand is largely worthless. The Infiniti brand is not much better. That isn't to say the cars aren't good, just that the commercial success of those marques hasn't been particularly impressive overall.

I think Vizio is well served to see itself as Hyundai, even though Vizio is an American brand. Over time, you change the perception of your brand through quality and value. Given than Vizio has the ability to decimate competitors over the next 1-3 years, it's a good time to do this, too. Tossing the Vizio brand to the bargain bin when the bargain bin is about to get crowded with Hisense, TCL, et al. seems like an especially large strategic error. That's why Vizio is heading another direction.

I would agree. Creating an entirely new brand, that customers would know was still made by Vizio, would only serve to make it more difficult to build a following. Also, while it wouldn't isolate the new brand from Vizio's reputation, it WOULD isolate Vizio from any positive reception to the new models. Basically, they'd be saddled with the bad, and unable to benefit from the good. This tends to work better when a premium manufacturer wants to make a sub-par series, and isolate their brand from the negative fallout associated with the cheaper product.

They are better off just branding it Vizio like they have and facing the fight head-on.

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post #466 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 08:45 AM
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Two things. This is subjective. We don't actually know a price yet, so how could you possibly know if it will be available for a decent price?(Whatever that is.)

While it's true that we don't have a dollar figure yet, we do have Vizio's own word that the TV will be offered at a value price. What "value" means, we won't know till they tell us, but I'm sure it will be more reasonable than the Sony and Samsung flagship models.
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post #467 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 08:52 AM
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I'm of the view that Vizio is going to shock the low price-doubters. I get all the business, marketing, and logic reasons for a high(er) price. But I just think they're on a mission to blow away the competition on price. That's my hunch. We'll see.

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post #468 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 10:47 AM
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Its been interesting watching all the news on Vizio.

Im not so sure about blowing everyone else of of the water. If i remember correctly, Vizio has always been labeled a "disposable" tv because they do not repair them. If i buy a $4k to $6k television and it needs a repair in a year, they better not tell to throw it away and get another one.

They have also been well known for not actually manufacturing anything, but for being a sum of parts brought together by them.

Regardless of how great the TV's are coming out, which i dont doubt, they need to repair and manufacture. Otherwise they can only go so far in disrupting the tv market out of necessity and dependency of companies that manufacture for them.

A market balance will always be maintained

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post #469 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank F View Post

I don't know why people consider Sony a quality brand anymore. Maybe back it the Trinitron CRT days but since the SXRD RPTV debacle they have lost all credibility in my book. I am hoping my 3 time light engine replaced SXRD can make it until the Vizio R or P series arrive.

I'm with you, Frank. My SXRD is now 6 years old and has been flawless, but I know it's unlikely to go another 4 years. I'm hoping it doesn't decide to fail before the Vizio P series arrive (assuming they are as good as Vizio claims).
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post #470 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 01:30 PM
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I'm of the view that Vizio is going to shock the low price-doubters. I get all the business, marketing, and logic reasons for a high(er) price. But I just think they're on a mission to blow away the competition on price. That's my hunch. We'll see.

As I learn more about this story, I am coming to the conclusion that Vizio's 'mission' may be far more ambitious than I had originally thought.

With the E-Series (for which early reviews have all been very positive), the M-Series, and the P-Series pricing and specs released, Vizio is basically already set to blow the competition away on price from low to high (of course predicated on their delivering products that deliver, especially the P).

The R Series is a different animal, and while I originally thought, like many of us, that it's mission was to challenge the top-tier brands at the flagship-subsegment of the market and improve Vizio's brand image, I have a different suspicion now.

I think Vizio may be trying to lead the evolution and adoption of HDR as the next video standard. That is certainly what they talk about (in the Verge interview, for example), but I honestly didn't give it much credence. Now I have learned a few facts that have caused me to reconsider:

1/ HDR technology is quite old and fully-baked. Dolby has been evangelizing the HDR stuff since at least 2010 (and the roots with Brightside go all the way back to 2007). HDR is also based on advanced FALD technology, which Dolby brings to the table.

2/ Dolby has been seeking a partner to try to influence the industry for a LONG time, and the top-tier brands like Sony and Samsung have preferred to develop their own proprietary in-house improved dynamic range technology rather than partner with Dolby.

3/ Dolby is now partnered with Vizio to bring HDR to market (as well as another couple brands, but Vizio seems to be the most significant)

4/ Vizio has been developing the R Series for 2 years and I suspect that Dolby (with HDR and the FALD local dimming technology that comes with that) has been a development partner on the R Series design since day 1.

5/ Vizio has made a lot of noise about Netflix and Amazon making first HDR content available through streaming and how 'streaming will lead the way' (versus physical media).

6/ The Vizio 65" Reference Series is the only panel that was shown at CES 2014 that will have the capability to fully exploit any HDR content that gets streamed by Amazon and Netflix.

So if I think about Vizio+Dolby, rather than just Vizio alone, it makes me far more confident that the 65" Reference Series will in fact materialize before black Friday and that it will be priced as aggressively as possible. If a year from now only a handful of videophiles are able to see the improved image offered by HDR on a small number of $5000+ 65" R Series panels, it will have been an abysmal failure for Vizio and Dolby.

It also would not surprise me at all to learn that Vizio has already teed up a firmware update for the P Series (and possibly also the M Series as well) that allows those sets to become 'HDR compatible' and able to exploit most, if not all, of the improvements of HDR content.

It's going to be a fun 12 months...

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post #471 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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Its as simple as I won't be buying a tv that doesn't support the playback of 50% of my bluray library. I really hope that lots of people buy their 50inch HDR/4K tv screens and that the industry takes off very fast in that direction, since I have a lot of bluray's I'd like to pick up for really cheap to view on my plain old 65inch Plasma with its impeccable static contrast ratio wink.gif

I also hope one day soon that streaming will finally catch up with plain old HD video and audio.
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post #472 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 01:58 PM
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I would agree. Creating an entirely new brand, that customers would know was still made by Vizio, would only serve to make it more difficult to build a following. Also, while it wouldn't isolate the new brand from Vizio's reputation, it WOULD isolate Vizio from any positive reception to the new models. Basically, they'd be saddled with the bad, and unable to benefit from the good. This tends to work better when a premium manufacturer wants to make a sub-par series, and isolate their brand from the negative fallout associated with the cheaper product.

They are better off just branding it Vizio like they have and facing the fight head-on.
Sharp's problem was the same as the Pioneer ELITE, the name says it all. You had a TV that was made for only the top 1% of Americans. I can say that myself and most of my AVS forum mates aren't either. You have companies like Panasonic that with every revision the entry level would benefit from the flagships innovation. Vizio is attempting something very similar by rewarding brand loyalty. The Reference will offer ELITE features for those that can afford a slightly more expensive point of entry,but the P-series is a great average consumer product/knowledgable customer TV. CES 2015 we'll see revision of the P-series that offer HDR and many of the reference series feature for mid-high range set
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post #473 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 02:33 PM
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Sharp's problem was the same as the Pioneer ELITE, the name says it all. You had a TV that was made for only the top 1% of Americans. I can say that myself and most of my AVS forum mates aren't either. You have companies like Panasonic that with every revision the entry level would benefit from the flagships innovation. Vizio is attempting something very similar by rewarding brand loyalty. The Reference will offer ELITE features for those that can afford a slightly more expensive point of entry,but the P-series is a great average consumer product/knowledgable customer TV. CES 2015 we'll see revision of the P-series that offer HDR and many of the reference series feature for mid-high range set

I think you have it right. And it also would not surprise me at all to learn that Vizio is already planning to award 2014 P Series customers by offering them a software/firmware upgrade a year from now that provides them some of the benefits of HDR on their non-HDR 2014 P Series panels... They won't have the 'custom' panel of the Reference Series and they probably only have 8 bit panels instead of 10 bit panels, but all the rest just amounts to software and firmware (and the processing horsepower of the P Series is identical to that of the R)...

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post #474 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 03:35 PM
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According to televisions.reviewed.com, the Samsung HU9000 (and I assume the HU8500 as well) has a new feature called "Pure Color" which uses a 192 point Color Management System. Long story short, this new tech should push the HU9000 to about 80% of the new Rec. 2020 standards. So with the 9000 and the Vizio reference, we now have 2 2014 TVs that get pretty close to the new color standards.

The only big disadvantage of the HU9000 and HU8500 is the edge lighting. Hopefully the Vizio Reference and both Samsung UHD models make it to the panel shootout. I want to see how Hesse things do when pitted up against each other.

I know we are all exited about the Vizio but is anyone else interested in the Samsungs?
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post #475 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 03:35 PM
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They have also been well known for not actually manufacturing anything, but for being a sum of parts brought together by them.

The same criticism is applied regularly to Apple. It's pretty meaningless there as well.
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As I learn more about this story, I am coming to the conclusion that Vizio's 'mission' may be far more ambitious than I had originally thought.

Their mission is to knock every Japanese TV brand out of the U.S. TV market. I think that's plenty ambitious.
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Sharp's problem was the same as the Pioneer ELITE, the name says it all.

I'm not sure where people think "Reference" is somehow "for the rest of us". It's the same "set it apart" type of strategy as Elite. It's simply not being designed to get P series people to just go spend a few more bucks on something better because Vizio is looking to spread the gospel of better picture quality. That's just not why you do that kind of line...

It has a lot of uses: encouraging upsells to the P series, brand halo effects, margin expansion for dealers who were reluctant to sell Vizio or push it hard... But democratization of videophile-level picture quality is just not an agenda item.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #476 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 03:57 PM
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I know we are all exited about the Vizio but is anyone else interested in the Samsungs?

I'm still unsold on the Vizio. I think it's a bit odd that Vizio was quick to release pricing on their other models, but they have been mute on the pricing and availability of the R series. Judging by the attitude of this thread, as long as they keep stringing us along about the promises and release date of that TV, they will enjoy a boost in reputation worth it's weight in gold in development costs.
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post #477 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 06:52 PM
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I'm still unsold on the Vizio. I think it's a bit odd that Vizio was quick to release pricing on their other models, but they have been mute on the pricing and availability of the R series. Judging by the attitude of this thread, as long as they keep stringing us along about the promises and release date of that TV, they will enjoy a boost in reputation worth it's weight in gold in development costs.
I for one am very interested in Samsung this year. I am looking at the curve 1080p H8000,due to the hardware as well as software dimming feature,but I am sure the steep price tag will put that well out of reach. The H7150 seems like the successor to the F7500, with micro dimming pro and the quad core and "true" 240hz display should make for a closer to my price range option w/3D. I am locked into a budget of $1500,so as much as I would love an X-series Sony or a Curved Samsung it isn't going to happen.
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post #478 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 06:58 PM
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I'm still unsold on the Vizio. I think it's a bit odd that Vizio was quick to release pricing on their other models, but they have been mute on the pricing and availability of the R series. Judging by the attitude of this thread, as long as they keep stringing us along about the promises and release date of that TV, they will enjoy a boost in reputation worth it's weight in gold in development costs.

I think you are probably grossly overestimating the impact of this forum... The average TV consumer has almost certainly never heard of the Vizio Reference Series...

Also, if I were Vizio, I would see no advantage to releasing the pricing on my flagship 65" Reference Series before the other top tier brands had released pricing on their flagship sets...

For example, I don't believe Toshiba has released pricing on the 4K (or 1080p) Radiance panels (which is one of the few 2014 4K FALD sets which may challenge Visio on specs).

So I expect Vizio to continue to delay any release of pricing on the 65" R Series until the last minute.

The 2014 VE Shootout should provide a forcing function - hopefully Vizio has the ambition to get the 65" R panel entered into this years shootout, which means they would need to release the 65" R Series product (along with pricing) no later than late April / early May...

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post #479 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 07:07 PM
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Their mission is to knock every Japanese TV brand out of the U.S. TV market. I think that's plenty ambitious.

I think a more ambitious mission would be to lead the definition and adoption of the next video standard (here in the US). If Vizio is successful in my mission, success in your mission would be an obvious byproduct...
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I'm not sure where people think "Reference" is somehow "for the rest of us". It's the same "set it apart" type of strategy as Elite. It's simply not being designed to get P series people to just go spend a few more bucks on something better because Vizio is looking to spread the gospel of better picture quality. That's just not why you do that kind of line...

It has a lot of uses: encouraging upsells to the P series, brand halo effects, margin expansion for dealers who were reluctant to sell Vizio or push it hard... But democratization of videophile-level picture quality is just not an agenda item.

Cannot argue with anything you have said, except that 'democratization of videophile-level picture quality' and 'establishment of the next-generation streaming-driven HDR video standard' are two very different agenda items. To succeed in the latter, Vizio needs to get many R Series sets adopted (and may also need to upgrade those 2014 customers of the P Series to HDR-light...).

Time will tell - I hope this Company has decided to tale over the world biggrin.gif

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post #480 of 529 Old 01-16-2014, 07:14 PM
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I think you are probably grossly overestimating the impact of this forum... The average TV consumer has almost certainly never heard of the Vizio Reference Series...

-fafrd

Of course most people don't frequent this forum, but if Katzmaier starts talking about them in his reviews of other TVs on CNET, and tech blogs start mentioning them in a positive light because they are expecting this amazing TV, then that can turn the tide of the average consumer's opinion. Most trends in CE are started by the early adopters. That's what Vizio is trying to do with this model.

To be honest, we don't even sell Vizios at Paul's (except for one cheap e-series refurb), but I'm still hoping the TV materializes and shakes up the industry because it looks like a great TV in every aspect. I've just been burned one to many times waiting for vaporware products...
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