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LCD Flat Panel Displays

Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipcordAFF View Post
A few pages back there was a discussion regarding the color depth of the 65" panel. It seems that it is an 8-bit panel (16 million colors), while the rest of the sizes in the range (including the E-series) are listed as 10-bit (1 billion colors). I don't know if anyone has definitively determined whether this will affect picture quality with standard HD sources...


Not really an "issue" since as discusses the Rec 709 doesn't require 10-bit to conform to standard. Some people will look at it as "less" however and think they may be getting less of a set, but without something made for 10-bit and a device that can output 10-bit, you wont miss anything. I remember seeing some anime fans asking about 10-bit awhile ago in a different section of the forum but for Normal HD Cable\Blu-ray content 10-bit really doesn't server any true benefit besides being able to say I have a 10 Bit screen so mine must be better than yours
RipcordAFF's Avatar RipcordAFF
08:22 AM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
Not really an "issue" since as discusses the Rec 709 doesn't require 10-bit to conform to standard. Some people will look at it as "less" however and think they may be getting less of a set, but without something made for 10-bit and a device that can output 10-bit, you wont miss anything. I remember seeing some anime fans asking about 10-bit awhile ago in a different section of the forum but for Normal HD Cable\Blu-ray content 10-bit really doesn't server any true benefit besides being able to say I have a 10 Bit screen so mine must be better than yours
So there is no 10-bit content currently available?
jpdyson's Avatar jpdyson
08:24 AM Liked: 51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
I would tend to disagree.
We just had this discussion a page or two back; the short answer is, I can virtually guarantee you two things:

1. When you're talking to a gamer about what input lag is, they mean button press to on-screen action.

2. When you see a Bodnar LagTester measurement, you're also seeing button press to on-screen action - aka input lag.

Now, I believe there are two legitimate camps here talking about two different measurements and using the same terminology, but I'm sticking to my guns on this. It's a term born of gaming demands, and we mean the SUM of all lags. If you want to say display lag, OK. If you want to argue that the Bodnar LagTester measures this, I'll give you that latitude, as it probably is the closest thing you'll get to truly identifying the amount of lag you can blame on the set (though you're adding the device's lag to that measurement; since it's constant, that's still useful for comparison, but it's definitely added lag).

You can do your own research, and find the genesis of this discussion and how it plays now today. People talking about how games running at different frame rates affect the necessary amount of minimum lag and so on. Bodnar just simplified the measurement process with his device to give us a baseline that doesn't depend on the game or the system running it, so that we know exactly how much input lag is coming from the display, and can compare it easily. But it doesn't magically measure JUST the set's lag, because it adds its own.
Stoopalini's Avatar Stoopalini
09:03 AM Liked: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipcordAFF View Post
So there is no 10-bit content currently available?
What about the "Deep Color" option available in some devices? From what I understand, this is supposed to extrapolate greater than 8 bit color, right?
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te
09:14 AM Liked: 616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipcordAFF View Post
A few pages back there was a discussion regarding the color depth of the 65" panel. It seems that it is an 8-bit panel (16 million colors), while the rest of the sizes in the range (including the E-series) are listed as 10-bit (1 billion colors). I don't know if anyone has definitively determined whether this will affect picture quality with standard HD sources...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RipcordAFF View Post
So there is no 10-bit content currently available?
For Blu-ray\HDTV? Not that I am aware of....


Here's an old thread on the subject:
10Bit VS 8bit - Need help understanding!


The thing with Dep Color, unless the Source was made\mastered for it, then what is the point. I can see for 4K as that's when the 10bit etc may be implemented, but for a 1080p source this mostly would be attractive to those who watch 10bit anime...Its nice to have I guess, but I don't think youll miss anything that's not suuposed to be there.....
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdyson View Post
2. When you see a Bodnar LagTester measurement, you're also seeing button press to on-screen action - aka input lag.
How? You hold down the button continously while it displays flashing bars; you don't press the button before each flash. It's displaying the elapsed time between some event and the flash and that event cannot be a button press. The Bodnar device measures display lag because that's all it could possibly do.

The amount of time between a control gesture and a game changing what's displayed in response is highly variable. It would be game specific.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te
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How do these threads always get dragged down by input lag talk......sighhhhh....
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
How do these threads always get dragged down by input lag talk......sighhhhh....
Because it is a subject of great concern to a subset of television buyers, like color depth and brightness.
jpdyson's Avatar jpdyson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
How? You hold down the button continously while it displays flashing bars; you don't press the button before each flash. It's displaying the elapsed time between some event and the flash and that event cannot be a button press. The Bodnar device measures display lag because that's all it could possibly do.
How does it eliminate the lag between pressing the button and the TV receiving the signal? (Hint: It can't, which is why the measurement you're talking about is impossible with this device). The circuit is closing and remaining closed for every cycle of the test.

So, perhaps I should have been even more precise: it measures the delay of the signal being triggered and then displayed, inside of a test loop, which is enabled by pressing the button. But it absolutely, positively cannot measure the delay from the TV receiving the signal to displaying it, because it's not inside the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
The amount of time between a control gesture and a game changing what's displayed in response is highly variable. It would be game specific.
I already said that, and indicated that it was precisely why the LagTester is so important. It's the world's simplest system playing the world's simplest game.
jpdyson's Avatar jpdyson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
How do these threads always get dragged down by input lag talk......sighhhhh....
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Because it is a subject of great concern to a subset of television buyers, like color depth and brightness.
Yes. The very observation you've made is evidence that it's an important performance metric (and hardly the most esoteric one we're discussing).
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Because it is a subject of great concern to a subset of television buyers, like color depth and brightness.
Oh believe me I am AWARE of how important it is to some buyers and I know why it is important as well. It was more the back and forth of what IS input lag and how is it measured I totally feel for those gamers that have been "left in the cold" when it comes to displays. They don't have many choices when it comes to big screen sets. I can also understand the confusion as we have seen a few different numbers related to these sets so it makes people waffle and become uncertain of this or another set.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdyson View Post
How does it eliminate the lag between pressing the button and the TV receiving the signal? (Hint: It can't, which is why the measurement you're talking about is impossible with this device). The circuit is closing and remaining closed for every cycle of the test.
The device records the value of a clock at some point, reads that clock when it detects the flash, then calculates and displays the delta. The time when the button is pressed is irrelevant; you could press and hold the button without the device being on one of the bars and then slide it onto the bar (I actually saw that in one demo video; the guy wasn't getting a reading until he moved the device over a bit), then slide it onto another bar without letting your finger off the button. The time at which it reads the clock before the flash is determined by the device's program. I'd expect it to be either just before it sends the frame or just after.

If you watch a demo of the device (see this) you'll see that there's a delay of seconds between holding down the button and it starting to display the pattern. The delay between the button being pressed and the first flash is not measured, and there are no further button presses while testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdyson View Post
So, perhaps I should have been even more precise: it measures the delay of the signal being triggered and then displayed, inside of a test loop, which is enabled by pressing the button. But it absolutely, positively cannot measure the delay from the TV receiving the signal to displaying it, because it's not inside the TV.

As I said above, it can measure from the time that it finishes sending the frame or from the time that it begins sending it. That's all relative to its own operation.
ducpiloti's Avatar ducpiloti
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found another great clip to test FALD:


venus933's Avatar venus933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducpiloti View Post
found another great clip to test FALD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI1N7oelEW0
Well, how did the clip look on your M series?
venus933's Avatar venus933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post
The HEVC and the UHD capability will be nice but I'm mainly interested in the back-lighting performance, light bleed is the main reason I've stayed away from LED/LCD displays so far.

And you should go for the 60" over the 55", you know you'll regret it later if you don't!
Except for occasional blooming issues it doesn't appear you have to be afraid of the dark when watching the M series.

Whether it be better contrast, better video processing or having HEVC the P series should please. Watching any UHD content will be icing on the cake.

If you would have told me last September (when the last of my 3 M series was returned) that if you wait 9 months you'll be able to get a M series without flashlighting, clouding and minimal blooming and overall superb PQ I would have been ecstatic but here I am bypassing it for the P series.

I came into the 2014 CES anticipating news from Samsung on a 7 series version of the F8500 panel but ended up very interested in Vizio's new line of FALD televisions, in particular the 70" P series.
Mavinwow's Avatar Mavinwow
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Vizio Demo: M Series vs. Samsung H7150
Andy_H's Avatar Andy_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
With all the talk in the Vizio Demo: M series vs. Samsung H7150 thread of panels, I am wondering if someone has a breakdown of the different panels in use for the 2014 M-series and the characterization of those panels.

Specifically, I am thinking of getting the 70-inch M-series set and am wondering if the panel is expected to be the same/better/worse and in what ways different from the 55-inch M-series imagic described in his excellent comparison.

According to Cnet (and I presume this is the same as the Vizio press release from CES), the sizes are as follows.

Vizio M422i-B1 (42 inch)
Vizio M492i-B2 (49 inch)
Vizio M502i-B1 (50 inch)
Vizio M552i-B2 (55 inch)
Vizio M602i-B3 (60 inch)
Vizio M652i-B2 (65 inch)
Vizio M702i-B3 (70 inch)

I remember reading where someone stated that the B1, B2, and B3 represented the three panels used for the sets. Is that accurate? This would mean that the 60&70 inch have the same panel; and the 49, 55, and 65 inch have the same panel; and the 42 and 50 inch have the same panel.

Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks!
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_H View Post
According to Cnet (and I presume this is the same as the Vizio press release from CES), the sizes are as follows.
Correct, except that there's also a M322i-B1. All models are available now except for the M702i-B3 and M502i-B1.

CNET lumps all of the models together in its review, with the presumption that PQ will be equal for all sizes. I wonder...
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_H View Post
I remember reading where someone stated that the B1, B2, and B3 represented the three panels used for the sets. Is that accurate? This would mean that the 60&70 inch have the same panel; and the 49, 55, and 65 inch have the same panel; and the 42 and 50 inch have the same panel.

Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks!
The B#'s are who the contract manufacturer making the TV for Vizio is. I don't know that anyone has shown a connection between the B# and the LCD panel.
Stoopalini's Avatar Stoopalini
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Correct, except that there's also a M322i-B1. All models are available now except for the M702i-B3 and M502i-B1.

CNET lumps all of the models together in its review, with the presumption that PQ will be equal for all sizes. I wonder...
I noticed that too .... We already know the 60" (with a B3 designation) is a 10 bit panel, vs. 8 bit on the others. The 60" has also been confirmed to have a 240hz native panel refresh rate. Not sure what the 55" (and others) native panel refresh rates are ...
Andy_H's Avatar Andy_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The B#'s are who the contract manufacturer making the TV for Vizio is. I don't know that anyone has shown a connection between the B# and the LCD panel.
Okay, that sounds closer to what I remember.

I got the distinct impression that people knew something about the different panels being used amongst the different models though. At the risk of opening a can of worms again by mentioning input lag (however you want to define it), what is expected with respect to panel vs panel size vs measured input lag? Should all of the M552i-B2 sets have the same panel? Same input lag? How does that compare to M652i-B2? M702i-B3 (theoretically, since it is not out)?
Ohiojosh78's Avatar Ohiojosh78
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So is the M602I-B3 actually a better picture than the M652I-B2 since the B3 has 1bn colors vs the B2's 16m colors.
Mavinwow's Avatar Mavinwow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiojosh78 View Post
So is the M602I-B3 actually a better picture than the M652I-B2 since the B3 has 1bn colors vs the B2's 16m colors.
Theoretically, although there is no content yet so meh
Andy_H's Avatar Andy_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiojosh78 View Post
So is the M602I-B3 actually a better picture than the M652I-B2 since the B3 has 1bn colors vs the B2's 16m colors.
I believe this would be a function of whether your source can take advantage of the additional colors. It sounds to me like there are few, if any, sources that can benefit from that many colors.
Stoopalini's Avatar Stoopalini
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what about 240hz vs. 120hz? UFO tested a 60" panel and came up with 240hz, but I haven't seen any similar tests of the others yet ...
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiojosh78 View Post
So is the M602I-B3 actually a better picture than the M652I-B2 since the B3 has 1bn colors vs the B2's 16m colors.
Probably not.

1) The difference between 10-bit via a native 10-bit panel vs. native 8-bit panel + FRC very likely isn't visible
2) no one has any idea if the M-series can accept a 10 bit signal, process it in at least 10-bits, and pass it to the panel
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoopalini View Post
what about 240hz vs. 120hz? UFO tested a 60" panel and came up with 240hz, but I haven't seen any similar tests of the others yet ...
It might redraw the screen at 240Hz, but we don't know if the M-series sends frames to the panel at 240Hz. My very strong guess is no.
Rf13's Avatar Rf13
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well guys i guess this article somewhat confirms what another member said, about the panels being 60hz. this could also be the reason for no 3D this year as well. this statement is very vague but seems to pertain to vizio as well.
qoute from article- "HD Guru expects more lower cost UHD 4K TVs to appear over the next few months in the USA by the major name brands as well as TCL, Hisense and Vizio. In addition to lowering costs by using new 60 Hz panels, they will probably will not be 3D capable as active 3D requires a 120 Hz panel . Further price drops could be achieved by stripping out other features such as Smart TV and LED local dimming."

heres the article: http://hdguru.com/new-lower-priced-u...vs/#more-13875
Nightanole's Avatar Nightanole
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post
well guys i guess this article somewhat confirms what another member said, about the panels being 60hz. this could also be the reason for no 3D this year as well. this statement is very vague but seems to pertain to vizio as well.
qoute from article- "HD Guru expects more lower cost UHD 4K TVs to appear over the next few months in the USA by the major name brands as well as TCL, Hisense and Vizio. In addition to lowering costs by using new 60 Hz panels, they will probably will not be 3D capable as active 3D requires a 120 Hz panel . Further price drops could be achieved by stripping out other features such as Smart TV and LED local dimming."

heres the article: http://hdguru.com/new-lower-priced-u...vs/#more-13875
I think what they mean is that cheap 4k models will be limited to 60hz panels. That means 120hz with back light strobe.
Current 1080p vizios are 120hz panels with back light strobe to get them to 240hz. To my knowledge there is no true 240hz panels out there.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightanole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post
well guys i guess this article somewhat confirms what another member said, about the panels being 60hz. this could also be the reason for no 3D this year as well. this statement is very vague but seems to pertain to vizio as well.

qoute from article- "HD Guru expects more lower cost UHD 4K TVs to appear over the next few months in the USA by the major name brands as well as TCL, Hisense and Vizio. In addition to lowering costs by using new 60 Hz panels, they will probably will not be 3D capable as active 3D requires a 120 Hz panel . Further price drops could be achieved by stripping out other features such as Smart TV and LED local dimming."



heres the article: http://hdguru.com/new-lower-priced-u...vs/#more-13875


I think what they mean is that cheap 4k models will be limited to 60hz panels. That means 120hz with back light strobe.

Current 1080p vizios are 120hz panels with back light strobe to get them to 240hz. To my knowledge there is no true 240hz panels out there.

^^^ This. The article was simply showing how companies could produce and release cheaper 4k sets. It says nothing about how Vizio or others are actually doing it. Just because a set is missing 3D doesn't mean it is for a fact 60hz, it just means it could be 60hz.


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