2014 Vizio Thread All models - Page 148 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I think there is a different explanation. Hitachi wasn't a bargain brand.
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
You also have to remember Vizio has been considered "low" on the totem poll and this gets less of the "experienced" user feedback that Brands such as Sony and Samsung may get. I think "most" here are waiting for the P and R series. With those you may see more consensus and experienced user feed back. With the M and E I don't expect many users with meters etc giving is detailed "solid" feedback.

Give it some time and we'll probably start to see users slowly come out of the woodwork. With the cheap Plasmas still available these sets will also be in less demand from users as well.
Both really good points and that's why I keep reading, hoping that a consensus will build before I make a purchase. In hindsight, I didn't start researching back then until the models had been out for a bit and that would make a big difference in what's posted. And to be honest, I'm probably talking more about the M-series thread than this one.


As for the 'sent from' notices, I simply ignore them as I'm reading and delete them when I quote someone. I edit mine out of settings whenever I have to reinstall, mostly because it's just an advertising gimmick. However, what bothers me more than those are the folks who quote a long post and then add a 1 sentence comment. Talk about wasting bandwidth. Back in the early days, doing so continuously might have gotten your account suspended.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:12 AM
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Both really good points and that's why I keep reading, hoping that a consensus will build before I make a purchase. In hindsight, I didn't start researching back then until the models had been out for a bit and that would make a big difference in what's posted. And to be honest, I'm probably talking more about the M-series thread than this one.


Yes the M series thread has been quiet. Sometimes though it's not a bad thing quiet users "usually" mean happy users. Without someone that uses the forum for things other than their TV however it will be hard to get feedback. Of course I don't believe we have many users yet either. We do have a small handful of M owners posting, but as you said they are few and far between. Hopefully we will get some activity in the near future (good or bad).



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Old 07-01-2014, 09:22 AM
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Yes the M series



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Old 07-01-2014, 12:53 PM
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Lets keep this in perspective.

Though the M series doesn't have reference level video processing and color accuracy its overall PQ is top notch regardless of price. Katzmaier giving the M series a 8 in PQ is truly impressive and I think that may be the ceiling of any LCD in recent years.

Though I'm waiting for the P series I only consider the M series budget like in the lack of non PQ features. That the M series has great uniformity and virtually no light bleed except for rare blooming puts it in the top 1 or 2 percentile in my book for LCD displays.

I have yet to run across a thread where everybody is happy including those about the ZT60/VT60.

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Old 07-01-2014, 01:43 PM
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I have not heard of any 4K TV that does not upscale from 1080p by doing linear 2x2 scaling.
Are you sure? Most of what I've been able to find claims that 4K TVs typically upscale/interpolate 1080P content. For example, from here: http://www.tvpredictions.com/answer182021014.htm

"Finally, I asked Raymond Soneira, president of DisplayMate Technologies, for his expert opinion. Soneira said all HD images will "look somewhat better on 4K" because the upscalers will interpolate the 4K pixels rather than use "straight pixel replication...so the images will appear less pixelated.""

("Straight pixel replication" is exactly what I would prefer)

Or from here:
http://www.rtings.com/info/4k-ultra-...tion-explained

"To display a 1080p content, a 4k TV upscale the resolution of it. This upscaling process is a series of filters designed to interpolate the new pixels based on the fewer old ones. In its simplest form, you can think of it as simply averaging the values of the pixels. This doesn't add any new information, it simply smooth it to be able to display the picture on 4 times the amount of pixels."

And lastly, from the description of a Sony 4K TV on Amazon:

"Sony’s unrivaled 4K X-Reality PRO picture processor enhances everything from sports to TV shows to Blu-Ray Disc movies. Based on ten years’ experience upscaling movies to 4K in over 15,000 theaters worldwide, Sony has developed and perfected a processor so advanced, it can upscale HD content to 4K quality."


So it definitely sounds like 4K TVs typically have this upscaling capability, but is it ever an option than can be turned off?

Considering how poor the options are for handling 480p video on the typical 1080p TV, I'm guessing no, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Zomboe View Post
Are you sure? Most of what I've been able to find claims that 4K TVs typically upscale/interpolate 1080P content. For example, from here: http://www.tvpredictions.com/answer182021014.htm

"Finally, I asked Raymond Soneira, president of DisplayMate Technologies, for his expert opinion. Soneira said all HD images will "look somewhat better on 4K" because the upscalers will interpolate the 4K pixels rather than use "straight pixel replication...so the images will appear less pixelated.""

("Straight pixel replication" is exactly what I would prefer)

Or from here:
http://www.rtings.com/info/4k-ultra-...tion-explained

"To display a 1080p content, a 4k TV upscale the resolution of it. This upscaling process is a series of filters designed to interpolate the new pixels based on the fewer old ones. In its simplest form, you can think of it as simply averaging the values of the pixels. This doesn't add any new information, it simply smooth it to be able to display the picture on 4 times the amount of pixels."

And lastly, from the description of a Sony 4K TV on Amazon:

"Sony’s unrivaled 4K X-Reality PRO picture processor enhances everything from sports to TV shows to Blu-Ray Disc movies. Based on ten years’ experience upscaling movies to 4K in over 15,000 theaters worldwide, Sony has developed and perfected a processor so advanced, it can upscale HD content to 4K quality."


So it definitely sounds like 4K TVs typically have this upscaling capability, but is it ever an option than can be turned off?

Considering how poor the options are for handling 480p video on the typical 1080p TV, I'm guessing no, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
Well now I'm confused as well. The final two snippets seem like they could be just some good marketing.

But the quote from Raymond Soneira is certainly interesting because:
1. His position certainly qualifies him to comment.
2. He flat out says it's different than a linear scale.
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:28 PM
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Zomboe, back here you asked whether you could request pixel replication for 1080p upscaling on the P-Series, posting the following as an example of typical 1080p-to-4K upscaling blurring:



Obviously that's simulated, since the center (upscaled) image should be 4 times as large as the first (1080p) one.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:30 PM
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Zomboe, back here you asked whether you could request pixel replication for 1080p upscaling on the P-Series, posting the following as an example of typical 1080p-to-4K upscaling blurring:



Obviously that's simulated, since the center (upscaled) image should be 4 times as large as the first (1080p) one.
Yeah it's a simulated image that RED produced to demonstrate upscaling. The image sizes are correct, they are all twice the size (in X and Y, so 4x the pixels) of the original image. The first image shows pixel replication (so it appears pixelated or "blocky") while the following two show examples of blurring or sharpening of the original. Essentially it represents three options and their tradeoffs.

Here is the source, it also shows the original smaller size image: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/upscaled-1080P-vs-4K

Ultimately I just like to have as many options as possible, but at the least I'd like the option to have the display do as little processing of the image as possible. But it seems like TVs in general have very few options for handling non-native resolution content; in most cases it's simply upscale/interpolate to fill the height of the screen (like 480p -> 1080p).

I guess we're just lucky that they give options to turn off other features, like motion processing. Imagine if the Soap Opera Effect was mandatory!
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lionelhuts View Post
I have not heard of any 4K TV that does not upscale from 1080p by doing linear 2x2 scaling.
Presumably he wants 1 to 4 pixel scaling for 1080p and 1 to 9 pixel scaling for 720p. That's not bilinear or bicubic scaling. I'm not quite sure it that is exactly nearest neighbor scaling though. Anyhow, Toshiba advertise the 1:4 scaling on their Z9X sets (Japan model). The L9400U (US model) should have the same capability. I'm not sure about the 1:9 scaling of 720p.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:38 PM
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Not Earth shattering news by any means but the 49" M series is now at Amazon. If you're a prime member (free 2 day shipping, 50" and smaller televisions ship UPS/FedEx) you can have one by Thursday if you order in the next 3 hours. How they tempt me.

I would think Vizio would want their larger sizes available at Best Buy by the July 4th Weekend, but it's still "Coming Soon".

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Old 07-01-2014, 05:18 PM
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Not Earth shattering news by any means but the 49" M series is now at Amazon.

I'm pretty sure that it's been available on Amazon since the 25th of June. I check daily and that's when I noticed that they'd added the 49" and 55" and that all 6 2914 M-Series models were listed as in stock and Prime shipping eligible (see this).
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:29 PM
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I'm pretty sure that it's been available on Amazon since the 25th of June. I check daily and that's when I noticed that they'd added the 49" and 55" and that all 6 2914 M-Series models were listed as in stock and Prime shipping eligible (see this).
I'm sure you're correct, what I've been doing is clicking on the 65" model and checking out the other sizes available from that page. I think today is the first time that the 49" choice showed up. 1 hr, 15 mins remaining for the Thursday window.

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Old 07-02-2014, 07:02 AM
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Since everyone is talking about TVs being released I figured I would update everyone that the m652i is now available on Walmart website at $1498. I would recommend waiting for Costco or SAMs as I suspect they will release it at $1398.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:27 PM
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Was looking into getting a M series for the bedroom since I like switching between my desktop and TV, but hearing about the 50-inch P series being $1k, I'm trying to hold out to see if this set materializes.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:52 PM
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Was looking into getting a M series for the bedroom since I like switching between my desktop and TV, but hearing about the 50-inch P series being $1k, I'm trying to hold out to see if this set materializes.
I don't think it is a question of it materializing. Bestbuy has already set up pages for the P series. I would expect to see the first one launch mid to end of next month. The question about a tv materializing is people referring to the R series. Personally at this point since there is no info whatsoever on the R series I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:09 PM
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I don't think it is a question of it materializing. Bestbuy has already set up pages for the P series. I would expect to see the first one launch mid to end of next month. The question about a tv materializing is people referring to the R series. Personally at this point since there is no info whatsoever on the R series I wouldn't hold my breath.
I've more or less given up on searching for info on the R series. I intend on buying a high end 4K set this year, but I'm looking at Sony, Panasonic (Depending on price of their local dimming set), and Toshiba if that local dimming set actually ends up being the sleeper hit so are thinking it might be.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:35 AM
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I've more or less given up on searching for info on the R series. I intend on buying a high end 4K set this year, but I'm looking at Sony, Panasonic (Depending on price of their local dimming set), and Toshiba if that local dimming set actually ends up being the sleeper hit so are thinking it might be.
I am waiting for 4K with 10 bit panels.I think you will need 10 bit in the near future. The R series with Dolby is a 10 bit panel and you can not do Dolby with a 8 bit panel! Most of the makers of TV'S are using 8 bit 4K panels with mojo REC 709 4K.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:49 AM
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I am waiting for 4K with 10 bit panels.I think you will need 10 bit in the near future. The R series with Dolby is a 10 bit panel and you can not do Dolby with a 8 bit panel! Most of the makers of TV'S are using 8 bit 4K panels with mojo REC 709 4K.
As true as that may be I believe you are forgetting that it can be said with fair certainty that the M602i uses a 10 but panel. If they used them in the M series you can expect to see them in the P series. I would guess all of them however it may be like the M and only be a few.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:56 AM
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I am waiting for 4K with 10 bit panels.I think you will need 10 bit in the near future. The R series with Dolby is a 10 bit panel and you can not do Dolby with a 8 bit panel! Most of the makers of TV'S are using 8 bit 4K panels with mojo REC 709 4K.
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As true as that may be I believe you are forgetting that it can be said with fair certainty that the M602i uses a 10 but panel. If they used them in the M series you can expect to see them in the P series. I would guess all of them however it may be like the M and only be a few.
I believe all of the P series will be 10Bit as they are supposed to be able to display 48fps media. Time will tell though and I am sure as we get closer we will find out more.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:54 AM
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The M series finally are now available to buy on Best Buy's website, for those waiting to buy from there.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:49 AM
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I believe all of the P series will be 10Bit as they are supposed to be able to display 48fps media. Time will tell though and I am sure as we get closer we will find out more.

What does 10 bit color have to do with displaying 48 fps properly? On Vizio's CES pages they gush about 10-bit color and HDR for the Reference Series but not the P-Series.

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Old 07-03-2014, 12:36 PM
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What does 10 bit color have to do with displaying 48 fps properly? On Vizio's CES pages they gush about 10-bit color and HDR for the Reference Series but not the P-Series.
I am mistaken, you are correct Scott W, confirmed that the P series will be 8bit (at least as far as we know).....
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:39 PM
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What is the specific model/package of the $200 calibration tool I keep seeing mentioned?
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:04 PM
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Usually the one recommend to begin with the is Id3 pro. The cost is closer to 300 though with software. You can find more information in the Calibration section of the forums.


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Old 07-03-2014, 02:44 PM
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So much for being patient. I was at Sam's Club last night and they had one M60 left. Had to buy it. Worth the $650 I saved over the unreleased P series I think.

Not like I can't get a 4k TV in a few years anyways.

Right now I'm just running a more red friendly version of the CNET settings.
Coming from my Panasonic ST50 the PQ isn't blowing me away. But vs my edge-lit LG I had before that, I can tell a huge difference.
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Old 07-04-2014, 04:31 AM
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Not like I can't get a 4k TV in a few years anyways
By the time 4K becomes mainstream, today's 4k sets will be relative dinosaurs. Happened to me when I bought my first HD set. That sexy Hitachi "tank" was a dino by the time HDTV caught on and broadcast content was widely available. Then, it was all about DLP and LCD.

And there was 3D ... all the rage 3 years ago, not so much now. Never caught fire.

For me, it would mean a receiver upgrade for a unit with 4k passthrough as well. And since I can't write a check that makes a thud when it hits the desk, I went with the 60M.


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Old 07-04-2014, 06:26 AM
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And there was 3D ... all the rage 3 years ago, not so much now. Never caught fire.
Somewhat because there isn't enough immersion on a 65" flat panel. If you could see Gravity 3D in my 4K theater you'd be lusting for more - seriously.

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Old 07-04-2014, 06:48 AM
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By the time 4K becomes mainstream, today's 4k sets will be relative dinosaurs. Happened to me when I bought my first HD set. That sexy Hitachi "tank" was a dino by the time HDTV caught on and broadcast content was widely available. Then, it was all about DLP and LCD.

And there was 3D ... all the rage 3 years ago, not so much now. Never caught fire.

For me, it would mean a receiver upgrade for a unit with 4k passthrough as well. And since I can't write a check that makes a thud when it hits the desk, I went with the 60M.
Same boat here, even a Hitachi 65" RPTV 10+ years old, but I've yet to upgrade. I'm still waiting to see the 70" at Costco and even then I'm not sure I'm going to jump in right away. I want the 70" because the screen will be at least 12" further way than the "tank", so the net effect will be the same viewing size.

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Old 07-04-2014, 07:50 AM
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Somewhat because there isn't enough immersion on a 65" flat panel. If you could see Gravity 3D in my 4K theater you'd be lusting for more - seriously.
I bet. 4K 3D in an actual theater is pretty impressive. I'd imagine that it would be a pretty similar experience at home with the right set up.

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Old 07-04-2014, 10:19 AM
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Same boat here, even a Hitachi 65" RPTV 10+ years old, but I've yet to upgrade. I'm still waiting to see the 70" at Costco and even then I'm not sure I'm going to jump in right away. I want the 70" because the screen will be at least 12" further way than the "tank", so the net effect will be the same viewing size.
Still very happy with my 10+ year old Mits 73" CRT/RPTV, at least I was until this past Monday when something failed/broke and it won't display HDCP-encrypted content anymore. I've been very interested in the P series 70" as I don't want to go down in size but now I may be forced to get something earlier than I had planned.

What are your thoughts about going from a CRT-based display(I'm assuming that Hitachi is CRT) with the outstanding black levels and contrast that goes with a CRT to a technology that even today struggles with matching that quality? I really wanted to believe that the newer LCD sets were just about there but I was at a Magnolia yesterday and it was very apparent which display looked the best and it wasn't any of the LCDs, it was the Samsung F8500. The Sony BR65X900B with the side speakers came very close, but the plasma was the winner in my eyes.

I ask as I know myself and I'm really struggling with the thought of losing that CRT/plasma image quality if I move to an LCD. Is that something you've considered and if so what are your thoughts?

Thanks
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