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post #4651 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
I'm thinking 60". It will replace this 46" CCFL backlit LCD, which is my only monitor for this desktop. I sit in front of it using a wireless keyboard and mouse on a laptop cart.
I'm dreaming of the 70" P. ....Drool....

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post #4652 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
I'm thinking 60". It will replace this 46" CCFL backlit LCD, which is my only monitor for this desktop. I sit in front of it using a wireless keyboard and mouse on a laptop cart.
To those planning to use it as a monitor - how are you planning to get 4k 60hz signal to it?

Reason I ask is that is my primary reason for holding out for the P-Series as well (using as a TV in my bedroom, but mounted above my computer desk). While the P series supports HDMI 2.0 which can drive 4k at 60fps, nobody has released a video card yet that has HDMI 2.0 support.

Everyone I know running 4k monitors today is doing it through DisplayPort 1.2 with multi-stream transport - which unfortunately the Vizio (or to my knowledge any 4k TV at the moment) doesn't have. I've heard some rumors that you may be able to get a DisplayPort to HDMI 2.0 adapter though I still don't see how that could carry 4k across at 60hz as there is no conversion of multi-stream (basically the stitching together of two signals) to HDMI.
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post #4653 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 09:05 AM
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I bought the vizio e601i-a3 from Walmart about 18 months ago. I got the batch that had some bad board of some kind and vizio volunteered to replace them, free of charge, and that happened about 6 months ago. Now the TV that I got from them 6 months ago is already having problems. The screen looks fine with al color shots, but as soon as darks are involved... the picture is terrible. I havent been here in a while, anyone know of this happening, and has Vizio stepped up and done anything about it?
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post #4654 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post
I bought the vizio e601i-a3 from Walmart about 18 months ago. I got the batch that had some bad board of some kind and vizio volunteered to replace them, free of charge, and that happened about 6 months ago. Now the TV that I got from them 6 months ago is already having problems. The screen looks fine with al color shots, but as soon as darks are involved... the picture is terrible. I havent been here in a while, anyone know of this happening, and has Vizio stepped up and done anything about it?

You'll have to ask/search the a3 threads this is the 2014 model year (xxxBx) thread.


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post #4655 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 10:00 AM
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oooops...sorry I didnt even see that.
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post #4656 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 10:33 AM
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I bought an M801i-A3 from Costco last week.


There was a long debate on this forum in April whether it is just a 3D-less version of the M801D. I have never seen an M801D but the reviews I read were complaining about a glossy screen. I am not sure that the screen on my M801i would qualify as glossy. It is definitely not as glossy as a MacBook or iPad, not even as glossy as my Panasonic S60 plasma (Costco model that has an anti-reflective filter on it). Even my Lenovo X1 Carbon has a glossier screen, and that screen is advertised as 'matte'.


I can see stuff reflected in the M801i's screen, but the outlines are fuzzy and the contrast is low. I would call it 'satin' rather than 'matte'.


Could it be possible that one change from M801D -> M801i is a less reflective screen? Could anyone owning a M801D tell how glossy it is?
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post #4657 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modenaf1123 View Post
To those planning to use it as a monitor - how are you planning to get 4k 60hz signal to it?

Reason I ask is that is my primary reason for holding out for the P-Series as well (using as a TV in my bedroom, but mounted above my computer desk). While the P series supports HDMI 2.0 which can drive 4k at 60fps, nobody has released a video card yet that has HDMI 2.0 support.

Everyone I know running 4k monitors today is doing it through DisplayPort 1.2 with multi-stream transport - which unfortunately the Vizio (or to my knowledge any 4k TV at the moment) doesn't have. I've heard some rumors that you may be able to get a DisplayPort to HDMI 2.0 adapter though I still don't see how that could carry 4k across at 60hz as there is no conversion of multi-stream (basically the stitching together of two signals) to HDMI.
theirs supposed to be hdmi 2.0 cards out by the end of this year if not available next year. i believe theres a thread floating around that nvidia has some beta software floating around that lets you do it using hdmi 1.4. also there is only one set coming out with display port 1.2 and its a panasonic 4k model.
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post #4658 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by realsgy View Post
I bought an M801i-A3 from Costco last week.


There was a long debate on this forum in April whether it is just a 3D-less version of the M801D. I have never seen an M801D but the reviews I read were complaining about a glossy screen. I am not sure that the screen on my M801i would qualify as glossy. It is definitely not as glossy as a MacBook or iPad, not even as glossy as my Panasonic S60 plasma (Costco model that has an anti-reflective filter on it). Even my Lenovo X1 Carbon has a glossier screen, and that screen is advertised as 'matte'.


I can see stuff reflected in the M801i's screen, but the outlines are fuzzy and the contrast is low. I would call it 'satin' rather than 'matte'.


Could it be possible that one change from M801D -> M801i is a less reflective screen? Could anyone owning a M801D tell how glossy it is?

Might want to ask in the M1801D owners thread you'll probably get a better response there. Most people dismissed the 80" when it was found not to have FALD I think.


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post #4659 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modenaf1123 View Post
To those planning to use it as a monitor - how are you planning to get 4k 60hz signal to it?

Reason I ask is that is my primary reason for holding out for the P-Series as well (using as a TV in my bedroom, but mounted above my computer desk). While the P series supports HDMI 2.0 which can drive 4k at 60fps, nobody has released a video card yet that has HDMI 2.0 support.

Everyone I know running 4k monitors today is doing it through DisplayPort 1.2 with multi-stream transport - which unfortunately the Vizio (or to my knowledge any 4k TV at the moment) doesn't have. I've heard some rumors that you may be able to get a DisplayPort to HDMI 2.0 adapter though I still don't see how that could carry 4k across at 60hz as there is no conversion of multi-stream (basically the stitching together of two signals) to HDMI.
Yeah, that was why I wasn't interested that much in the 4k HDTV yet. They have to have HDMI 2.0, and 60hz. Right now, you can run a 30hz. I didn't think about video cards not supporting HDMI 2.0. Supposedly, you can run 2 780 Ti in SLi to do 4k. But dropping $1k on video cards is a bit much right now.

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post #4660 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by modenaf1123 View Post
To those planning to use it as a monitor - how are you planning to get 4k 60hz signal to it?

I don't plan to send it 4K computer graphics; as far as my PC is concerned I'm more interested in higher-than-60 Hz than in higher resolution. I'll use the highest resolution that my cheapo video card can output which the monitor can display at 120 Hz. (I don't play video games on PC and purchased a sound-capable video card for about $50 to get digital surround+video over HDMI (Radeon 7450 chipset)).

I'm not particularly interested in 4K video from any source. I want one of these because it has all of the highest tech in any Vizio model: 4 GPU/2 CPU processor, HEVC decoding, 802.11ac wireless, etc.

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post #4661 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by realsgy View Post
I bought an M801i-A3 from Costco last week.


There was a long debate on this forum in April whether it is just a 3D-less version of the M801D. I have never seen an M801D but the reviews I read were complaining about a glossy screen. I am not sure that the screen on my M801i would qualify as glossy. It is definitely not as glossy as a MacBook or iPad, not even as glossy as my Panasonic S60 plasma (Costco model that has an anti-reflective filter on it). Even my Lenovo X1 Carbon has a glossier screen, and that screen is advertised as 'matte'.


I can see stuff reflected in the M801i's screen, but the outlines are fuzzy and the contrast is low. I would call it 'satin' rather than 'matte'.


Could it be possible that one change from M801D -> M801i is a less reflective screen? Could anyone owning a M801D tell how glossy it is?
Satin would come pretty close. Not as matte as the Sharps but less glossy than the plasmas (or the Vizio 65").
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post #4662 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 03:03 PM
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What version of the Netflix app are people seeing? The one with the old common Netflix UI:

Spoiler!
or one with the new common Netflix UI:

Spoiler!
That new P-Series brochure features the new common Netflix UI. Whatever it shipped with, the app should eventually be "upgraded" to the new common UI. (I quote "upgraded" because many prefer the old one, which has some capabilities which they miss, like "play from beginning").

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post #4663 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
What version of the Netflix app are people seeing? The one with the old common Netflix UI:

Spoiler!
or one with the new common Netflix UI:

Spoiler!
That new P-Series brochure features the new common Netflix UI. Whatever it shipped with, the app should eventually be "upgraded" to the new common UI. (I quote "upgraded" because many prefer the old one, which has some capabilities which they miss, like "play from beginning").
My 60M has always had the new version. It may have secretly updated before I tried netlfix, but all I've ever seen is the new style.

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post #4664 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 04:09 PM
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My 60M has always had the new version. It may have secretly updated before I tried netlfix, but all I've ever seen is the new style.

Cool. Some devices which shipped earlier this year came with the old common UI, though the new one emerged in mid-November. The old common UI is what they show on the Vizio Internet Apps "brochure" page.

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post #4665 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
What version of the Netflix app are people seeing? The one with the old common Netflix UI:




Spoiler!
or one with the new common Netflix UI:




Spoiler!
That new P-Series brochure features the new common Netflix UI. Whatever it shipped with, the app should eventually be "upgraded" to the new common UI. (I quote "upgraded" because many prefer the old one, which has some capabilities which they miss, like "play from beginning").
The 50" M I auditioned had the newer version of Netflix. Also of note, it also had the newer version of Amazon VOD.

What I'm curious about is why the P series will have all this robust video processing (6-core engine in Vizio speak) dedicated for Via Apps as it's pretty simple and straightforward (which I like by the way), seems kind of like overkill. I'm sure faster menu responses and loading times will be beneficial but it still seems like more than what's needed.

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post #4666 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by modenaf1123 View Post
To those planning to use it as a monitor - how are you planning to get 4k 60hz signal to it?

Reason I ask is that is my primary reason for holding out for the P-Series as well (using as a TV in my bedroom, but mounted above my computer desk). While the P series supports HDMI 2.0 which can drive 4k at 60fps, nobody has released a video card yet that has HDMI 2.0 support.

Everyone I know running 4k monitors today is doing it through DisplayPort 1.2 with multi-stream transport - which unfortunately the Vizio (or to my knowledge any 4k TV at the moment) doesn't have. I've heard some rumors that you may be able to get a DisplayPort to HDMI 2.0 adapter though I still don't see how that could carry 4k across at 60hz as there is no conversion of multi-stream (basically the stitching together of two signals) to HDMI.
Nvidia has updated its drivers. You can get 4:2:0 4K@60hz over HDMI 1.4

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvi...1.4,27117.html
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post #4667 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 04:57 PM
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Other than the obvious differences of size (5" diag), price ($400) and weight (10 lbs), the only differences I see based on their websites "specs" for the M552i-B2 & M602i-B3 are
number of colors; 1 billion vs 16 billion (is that marketing or what?) and power consumption 142w for the 55" and 85w for the 60".

What does the "2" vs "3" specify in the model number?

http://store.vizio.com/mseries/m552ib2.html
http://store.vizio.com/mseries/m602ib3.html

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Originally Posted by bluewhale1 View Post
I was all ready to jump on a Samsung 508550. Im going to wait it out for the P series. I hope its at least as good as the 8550( Reallly hoping its better by a good margin) as far as picture quality.
Very, very doubtful but I'll be jumping cartwheels if it does. I guess the tricky part for us is not to wait too long and get shut out from the option of buying the F8500 at its current price.
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post #4669 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 05:14 PM
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Very, very doubtful but I'll be jumping cartwheels if it does. I guess the tricky part for us is not to wait too long and get shut out from the option of buying the F8500 at its current price.
That's the very thin ice I'm skating on as well.
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post #4670 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Other than the obvious differences of size (5" diag), price ($400) and weight (10 lbs), the only differences I see based on their websites "specs" for the M552i-B2 & M602i-B3 are
number of colors; 1 billion vs 16 billion (is that marketing or what?) and power consumption 142w for the 55" and 85w for the 60".

What does the "2" vs "3" specify in the model number?

http://store.vizio.com/mseries/m552ib2.html
http://store.vizio.com/mseries/m602ib3.html

2 vs 3 is panel "maker" I believe. The colors is not marketing the 60" is a 10bit panel and the 55/65 are 8bit.


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post #4671 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 05:36 PM
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2 vs 3 is panel "maker" I believe.
Anyone else chime in on this?

.
Quote:
The colors is not marketing the 60" is a 10bit panel and the 55/65 are 8bit.
Isn't that suppose to reduce the false contouring problem? I kinda doubt anyone could actually detect differences when the count is in the "billions".

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post #4672 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 05:50 PM
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2014 Vizio Thread All models

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Anyone else chime in on this?

.Isn't that suppose to reduce the false contouring problem? I kinda doubt anyone could actually detect differences when the count is in the "billions".

You would need to have 10bit content to take advantage of those colors. Since there isn't much if that, the expanded offering goes to "waste". I think the real 10bit push will come with 4k content.

As far as the panels goes, if you go back awhile in the thread there has been discussion off and on about it. You'll also find that the panels "match" the shared manuals (49,55,65 all B2) (60/70 b3).


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post #4673 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 06:18 PM
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2 vs 3 is panel "maker" I believe. The colors is not marketing the 60" is a 10bit panel and the 55/65 are 8bit.

It's the specs for the 55" which claims 10 bit color as do the specs for the other 2i-B2s, the 49" and 65"; the 2i-B1s (42" and 32") also spec 16-bit color (the 50", when it appears, will also be a 2i-B1). The specs for the 2i-B3s (60" and 70") claim 8 bit color.

There's one specification which is consistent for the suffixes.

EDIT: Sorry--I got that backwards. You were right: the 60" and 70" have 10 bit color and the others all have 8 bit.

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post #4674 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by vertrkr View Post

I hadn't noticed the little local dimming demo on that page (Mr. Peabody and Sherman clip)--very cool.
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post #4675 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 07:14 PM
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I hadn't noticed the little local dimming demo on that page (Mr. Peabody and Sherman clip)--very cool.
So on a 70" display that's roughly a 7" x 4" zone, definitely would have preferred the 96, though on the lower screen sizes it should be very nice.
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post #4676 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 08:19 PM
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I caught the cache for the P Series product page. Got lucky as I don't see it on google anymore. Click the link then you'll probably get a popup window talking about some error but hitting ok loads cached page which has about 15 scrolling pages.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&client=safari
Great find. I love how they show Netflix 4k content when I can't even get House of Cards to stream faster than 480p at 9pm on my 50mbps connection. :/
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post #4677 of 5781 Old 07-22-2014, 08:48 PM
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Great find. I love how they show Netflix 4k content when I can't even get House of Cards to stream faster than 480p at 9pm on my 50mbps connection. :/
I have no problem getting Netflix titles to stream at 1080p with my 15mbps DSL connection in the evenings.

Edit: on a wireless connection too.

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post #4678 of 5781 Old 07-23-2014, 03:03 AM
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I have no problem getting Netflix titles to stream at 1080p with my 15mbps DSL connection in the evenings.

Edit: on a wireless connection too.
Same here. Although I had intermittent difficulty with my 10 mbps Road Runner connection, since I went to 20 mbps I have no problem at all. This tells me it's not all about the Netflix end, but the user internet provider end also.
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post #4679 of 5781 Old 07-23-2014, 05:23 AM
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You would need to have 10bit content to take advantage of those colors. Since there isn't much if that, the expanded offering goes to "waste".
Then it is just another marketing ploy (more or less) just like Samsung started calling these "LED" TV's.


Quote from;
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_3.htm


Digital Granularity
While digital signals and intensities are absolutely precise they always introduce some brightness artifacts for each pixel in an image. This is due to the quantization error that results from restricting the intensity and brightness values to a set of digital levels, instead of allowing any value in-between the minimum and maximum, as in the case of analog signals. The intensity steps apply individually to each of the red, green and blue primary color channels, so they also introduce quantization errors into hue and saturation for all resulting color mixtures. The greater the number of digital levels the smaller the error. If the steps are very fine then the eye will not notice the jumps and lack of smoothness. If they’re not then the Granularity of the digital steps will introduce false visual intensity and color contours into an image. They’re most noticeable when there are fine graduations in either intensity or color within an image.

The real question is how fine do the steps need to be in order for these granularity effects not to be visible? As we discussed in Part II, the eye responds to brightness ratios. (Technically the correct term to use here is luminance ratios, but we will be informally referring to luminance as brightness and will use the two terms interchangeably throughout the article.) When comparing two values it is their brightness ratio that determines what your eye sees. So how small a variation in the brightness ratio can the eye detect? It turns out to be roughly 1 percent over a wide range of brightness. So if the change in brightness between two digital intensity steps is more than about 1 percent, then the brightness granularity can be detected by the eye. The number of intensity steps that are available is determined by the number of bits used to specify the intensity levels. For example, 8-bits allows 256 levels, which is what is used in most computer and video signals. A greater number of bits will provide a finer intensity scale, which is sometimes used for internal signal processing within a display (see Signal Processing, below). HDMI will eventually allow up to 12-bit signals, which has 4096 levels, but for now most computer and video content is restricted to 8-bits and 256 levels.

The next question is how to distribute the brightness levels among the allowed digital values. The best (and most efficient) way would be to separate them all by a specified ratio, like the one percent increment mentioned above. Each step would then be 1.01 times the brightness of the previous step. Each step would also be a bit wider than the previous step, so the spacing between the steps would vary and be non-linear. (The brightness for step n would be proportional to 1.01n. Black, which has zero brightness, is handled as a special level.) This is the most efficient method for specifying the intensities accurately, but it’s not the method that’s used because a linear spacing is more convenient and makes signal processing a lot easier. So, in reality, the intensity steps are all separated by equal differences rather than equal ratios. That means that the brightness ratio between adjacent steps will then increase as the brightness decreases, so the granularity artifacts will show up first at the dim-end of the intensity scale. We’ll analyze this quantitatively next.

In Figure 1 (see attachment) we’ve plotted the percentage change in brightness per digital step from an 8-bit intensity scale (with 256 steps) up through a 14-bit scale (with 16,384 steps). They’re all plotted as a percentage of maximum brightness on the horizontal scale. We’ll discuss the meaning of the 7-bit graph below. (The plotted values depend on the value of Gamma, so we’ve used the standard value of 2.20, see Part II.) We’ve again used a logarithmic graph because it’s better for presenting the results. You don’t need any advanced math to understand logarithmic graphs, just pay attention to the scale values. The horizontal axis goes from 0.1 percent to 100 percent of the maximum screen brightness -- that’s a dynamic range of 1000:1 in brightness. The vertical scale goes from 0.01 percent to 100 percent. Note that a 1 percent increase, which is the detection threshold, is exactly in the middle of the vertical scale. Values below this value cannot be detected by the eye and values greater than this value can be detected, and therefore may produce false intensity and color contours in an image.

8-bit Granularity
From the graph you can see that almost the entire 8-bit intensity scale is above the one percent detection threshold. Also, the granularity dramatically increases by more than a factor of 20 over the brightness range shown in the graph. At 10 percent of maximum brightness the change in brightness between adjacent steps is 2.5 percent and at 1 percent of maximum brightness the change is 7 percent between adjacent steps. There is plenty of image content that extends down to 1 percent of maximum brightness (level 32), so the granularity and contouring will definitely be visible in an 8-bit intensity scale.

The graph extends down to 0.1 percent of maximum brightness, which represents a dynamic range of 1000:1. CRTs have a dynamic range that’s more than a factor of 10 greater than that and the best flat panels are now approaching 3000:1 and are steadily improving. At 0.01 percent of maximum brightness (not shown in the graph but corresponding to a dynamic range of 10,000:1) only the 14-bit scale is below the one percent threshold. However, at very low light levels the detection threshold for the eye will increase. So, in order to take full advantage of the larger dynamic ranges for the current generation of displays it will be necessary to extend the intensity scale by at least two more bits over the current 8-bits. Hardware that’s capable of handling 10 and 12-bit signals is starting to make an appearance and will significantly reduce granularity effects in the long-term, however, for now almost all image content is based on 8-bits.

Granularity Tests
A detection threshold is probably much too stringent a condition, so we should instead be looking for something more along the lines of a noticeable threshold, which is around a few percent, but will depend on the particulars of the image content and the ambient lighting conditions. For example, contouring will be much more noticeable in a dark image when viewed in a very dark room. With any version of DisplayMate for Windows (www.displaymate.com) you can determine the threshold values for yourself using the “Color Explore and Match” test pattern screen, which has 3 side-by-side panels that can be set to any 8-bit intensity or color value. First set the slider for the middle panel to the intensity or color value that you want to study. Then adjust the sliders for the other two panels to values just above and below the central panel where you start to detect an intensity or color difference. That will be your eye’s threshold for that intensity or color. The DisplayMate Multimedia Edition has additional test patterns to help determine gray-scale sensitivity. To perform these tests you’ll need to use an analog CRT display because all of the other technologies generate their intensities digitally, which will interfere with the experiment. (The CRT uses an analog signal generated from the 8-bit digital signal. The conversion is generally very accurate and should not interfere with the evaluation.) Turn down the room brightness as low as possible, or at least down to the same value as your home cinema and make sure that your computer is set to 24-bit color (sometimes it’s identified as 32-bit color), which uses 8-bit intensities.

Granularity Due to Signal Processing
The granularity effect is actually larger than the above discussion because with an 8-bit digital input signal it’s unlikely that a digital display will be able to produce a true 8-bit intensity scale. The reason is that any digital processing will cause some reordering of the perfectly ordered set of 256 intensity levels. A shift of just 1 intensity level will degrade the signal to 7-bit granularity (see Figure 1), a shift of 3 levels will degrade the signal to 6-bits, and a shift of 2 levels falls in-between 6 and 7-bits. One way to reduce this effect is for the display to process the 8-bit signal internally with more than 256 levels; 10-bits with 1024 levels is used in many displays. It’s a form of digital interpolation. The processing irregularities (artifacts) are then smaller. If the display device can actually produce 1024 intensity levels then it will deliver overall performance relatively close to 8-bits. If the display device is limited to 8-bits (which is often the case), then the overall performance will be closer to 7-bits. If straight 8-bit signal processing is used throughout then the overall performance will typically be closer to 6-bits. We’ll discuss this further under Signal Processing, below.
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Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.

Last edited by videobruce; 07-23-2014 at 05:59 AM. Reason: added quote from DisplayMates site
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post #4680 of 5781 Old 07-23-2014, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DickTinWis View Post
Same here. Although I had intermittent difficulty with my 10 mbps Road Runner connection, since I went to 20 mbps I have no problem at all. This tells me it's not all about the Netflix end, but the user internet provider end also.
Yeah, I have Comcast and a hard wired Ethernet connection to the TV. I assumed it was congestion on the Comcast side.
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