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post #451 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 02:43 PM
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I would have to redesign my room a bit to fit the 120-inch (well, OK, redesign it a lot, fine! smile.gif)....

But that said, one reason I might buy one if I had the space is that I would not have OLED envy for years and years to come. If you get the Reference series (assuming it exists) in a 65-inch and there's an OLED alternative in 2-3 years, perhaps the same size or a bit bigger, you might be jonesing to upgrade.

With the 120, you won't see an OLED till 2018-20 (if then) that doesn't cost the equivalent of a nice home in Kansas. And you'll never envy a 70-inch TV from anyone. Ever.

I'm not trying to get people to buy a 120. To be clear, my home cannot accommodate a projector in the living room. We have thought about how to reorient the room to make that work. It simply cannot be done. If I were to rebuild the "TV wall," and the Vizio 120 existed and ran, say, $20,000 (which I don't believe will be the initial price if they even build this... look closer to $50,000), I would probably design around it. I'd hope they build in a "use only the middle of the screen" mode for displaying regular TV with (a) less backlighting and (b) less size (That would improve the green cred and since it's an LCD, no worries about burn in). But for all sports and movies, I wouldn't hesitate to fill the whole display.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #452 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Great chart. Anyone with a new set can also test.

Dark room
Connect laptop to display
Black background on laptop
Use mouse cursor to test every bit of screen and count zones as they turn on and off

I did this with my 20089 Toshiba, and it was funny how easy it was to make the squares turn on and off.

The modern version of the 'candle moving across a dark room' - brilliant!

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post #453 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Den9696 View Post

I don't think they would announce pricing for the P series and then wait 7-9 months to release it. Might see it just after/during the release of the M-series.

Guys I sure hope you are right ... but I have been buying Vizios for 6 years now (my whole house is full of em from year after year) and I see them announced each year at CES and they give you these early "We Hope Dates" for release and always show pricing most of the time very early but seem to never meet the dates.

They are NOT great at getting these TV's released fast and on time ...... BUT I was Shocked to see the E-Series ready RIGHT AFTER CES! That is a good thing if you are hoping for fast releases and maybe Vizio will be on it this year and start getting these released in a timely fashion.

But they will release these bad boys in quarter intervals I'm sure .... E-Series Now of course, (and hopefully .......) the M-Series around March / April'ish .... then I would assume if they really are going to try and release both the P and R Series (I am confident we will see the P ... not confident At All we will see the R this year, but I could be wrong of course ... just my thought since I have seen how Vizio works over the past many years) that we will see the P Series as a "Summer" release time frame which ALWAYS rolls into fall seems like ... I am not counting on seeing the P-Series until like August / September at the soonest I would think .... Then,,,, Hopefully they have the R-Series readied by then and we see a close back to back release (but like I said, I doubt it) for these 2 new UHD TV's!!!

I have no interest in the E-Series and M-Series .... I have a 70" M-Series and though the Light Bleed and not so great black bug me it'' a Stellar TV ... but for me I think 2015 is the year I hope to see the 4K / Glasses Free 3D (fingers crossed but who the heck knows) ....... But Dammit man I have been a 100% fan of Rear-Array LED since my first 55" XVT Series Vizio years ago (I Hate Edge-lit ... but that's all we have had really unless we wanna spend 4/5K Plus!), and all depending on how amazing that P-Series TV looks I may not be able to wait for 2015.

2013 M-Series was a great TV for the price but good golly the prices for these P-Series 4K TV's are Astonishing and VERY HARD to pass up if they meet the expectations that are currently on paper.

We'll just have to sit back and wait and analyze the E-Series technology and M-Series in hopes that if they are Real Good it would be a good sign the R-Series will be the absolute Dominate TV of the year and Vault Vizio in the lead on price (which they currently hold) AND also Picture Quality!!!

Can't Wait!!!
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post #454 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 05:21 PM
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The "Ref" series will come in two sizes, 120" and 65" and they're production ready. What Vizio is trying to figure out is the logistics of getting a 120" TV into your home (per the Verge interview). I look at this series as a showcase TV for the well off. Look for the "P" series to be the VE entry from Vizio.

Does anyone know when the pricing was released for the "M" series last year? I too think March/April is a reasonable expectation for The "M" and "P" series since the pricing has already been released. But if the pricing was released last year at this time for the "M" series perhaps it will be much later in the year, hence that's why I'm wondering when the pricing was released last year for comparison.

By the way, VE broke their rules to enter the ZT60 last year, it wasn't available for retail sale at the time of the show. Hopefully VE excludes the OLEDs and other TVs beyond the price of most consumers for this year’s shootout.

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post #455 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

The "Ref" series will come in two sizes, 120" and 65" and are production ready. What Vizio is trying to figure out is the logistics of getting a 120" TV into your home (per the Verge interview). I look at this series as a showcase TV for the well off. Look for the "P" series to be the VE entry from Vizio.

Does anyone know when the pricing was released for the "M" series last year? I too think March/April is a reasonable expectation for The "M" and "P" series since the pricing has already been released. But if the pricing was released last year at this time for the "M" series perhaps it will be much later in the year, hence that's why I'm wondering when the pricing was released last year for comparison.

By the way, VE broke their rules to enter the ZT60 last year, it wasn't available for retail sale at the time of the show. Hopefully VE excludes the OLEDs and other TVs beyond the price of most consumers for this year’s shootout.

Looks like they announced pricing at ces 2013

http://store.vizio.com/news/vizio-reveals-expanded-2013-hdtv-collection
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post #456 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Den9696 View Post

Looks like they announced pricing at ces 2013

http://store.vizio.com/news/vizio-reveals-expanded-2013-hdtv-collection

Thanks! I guess falconman could very well be correct.

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post #457 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 07:17 PM
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For those interested in any nugget of information about the "P" series I've provided a link of a first impressions review from review.com:

http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/vizio-ps55-first-impressions-review

Nothing earth shattering but I found this passage interesting:

"The nature of the liquid crystal's ability to firmly close in front of an LED backlight depends on the panel type—Vizio has employed VA (vertical alignment) panels in their UHD TVs.

VA LCD panels typically have worse viewing angles than more popular IPS (in-plane switching) panels, and Vizio isn't pursuing the trend of curving their UHD TVS which—depending on who you ask—could make for viewing angle issues in the future. However, VA panels have an easier time "locking" instances of liquid crystal within the panel, which makes for more exacting local dimming in LED-based televisions like the PS55."

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post #458 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 07:37 PM
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Its not secret that IPS panels have better view angles and worse blacks, been that way for a looooooong time. Ill take better blacks.

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post #459 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 07:45 PM
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Its not secret that IPS panels have better view angles and worse blacks, been that way for a looooooong time. Ill take better blacks.

You and me both!
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post #460 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Its not secret that IPS panels have better view angles and worse blacks, been that way for a looooooong time. Ill take better blacks.

Anyone know what the static contrast ratio of a state-of-the-art VA panel is compared to state-of-the-art IPS panel?

The Samsung F8000 is supposed to have one of the best static contrast ratios of any LCD. These guys: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm?page=Performance
tested the 55" F800 to have checkerboard 'ON' brightness of 105 cd/m2 and checkerboard 'OFF' brightness of 0.049 cd/m2 (which I believe translates into a static contrast ratio of 2143:1

Was the F8000 panel VA or IPS?

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post #461 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Anyone know what the static contrast ratio of a state-of-the-art VA panel is compared to state-of-the-art IPS panel?

The Samsung F8000 is supposed to have one of the best static contrast ratios of any LCD. These guys: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm?page=Performance
tested the 55" F800 to have checkerboard 'ON' brightness of 105 cd/m2 and checkerboard 'OFF' brightness of 0.049 cd/m2 (which I believe translates into a static contrast ratio of 2143:1

Was the F8000 panel VA or IPS?

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Found this on Tom's Hardware: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/321268-33-questions


jaguarskx

July 16, 2011 10:40:31 PM

reaper2794 said:
Can anyone sum up the qualities and differences of VA Panels, IPS, and LED-LCD?


"LED-LCD" is simply a LCD panel with LED backlight rather than CCFL (florescent) backlight. LED backlight monitors are all edge lit. While this means the monitor itself can be thinner and lighter and use less electricity, there tends to be more instances of backlight bleeding around the edges and less overall consistent backlighting compared to CCFL backlight which is a full array backlight. Additionally, the light emitted by "LED-LCD" is not true white. They use blue LEDs that have a yellow phosphorus coating which imitates white. This is why some people say that colors look a bit bluish in "LED monitors". The exception would be RGB-LCD which use Red, Green and Blue LEDs to create white and they are a full array backlight. However, RGB-LED backlight are only used in professional level IPS panel monitors for graphic artists and generally carries a price tag of over $2,000.

All consumer level IPS panel monitors with LED backlight are e-IPS panels. If you want a H-IPS, S-IPS or P-IPS panel with LED backlight, then you must step up to a professional level monitor which uses RGB-LED. I don't know of any VA panels that have LED backlighting except maybe in the professional level monitors.

IPS panels tend to have up to 1000:1 static contrast ratio which is the true measure of contrast for LCD monitors. Dynamic contrast ratios which can have ridiculously large numbers like 1,000,000:1 is not the true measure of contrast. Those large numbers look impressive, but it's mostly just "advertising".

TN panels also have up to 1000:1 static contrast ratio, but they generally seem to be slightly overstated.

VA panels generally have up to 3000:1 static contrast ratio. The really good ones can have up to 4000:1. What this means is that different colors tones can be noticed especially with very dark tones. IPS and TN panel monitors then to have "black crush" issues due to the lower static contrast ratio. This means that on a VA panel you can tell difference between extreme dark grey and black. On an IPS or TN panel both colors are "crushed" down to simply appearing to be black.

VA panels tends to have slightly narrower viewing angles than IPS panels even though both are advertised as having 178/178 degree viewing angle."

Sounds like 1-2 more bits of static contrast out of a VA panel...


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post #462 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

I found an articlearticle that confirms the panels used on the P-series Vizio. I have concerns about the use of VA panels and overdrive trailing associated with the low inherent refresh rate. I fill viewing angles could be an issue as well.

Do you know what kind of panel was used by the Samsung F8000?


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post #463 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 08:57 PM
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Do you know what kind of panel was used by the Samsung F8000?


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Samsung is almost exclusively VA panels.
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post #464 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:02 PM
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I found an article that confirms the panels used on the P-series Vizio. I have concerns about the use of VA panels and overdrive trailing associated with the low inherent refresh rate. I fill viewing angles could be an issue as well.http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/vizio-ps55-first-impressions-review
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post #465 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

Samsung is almost exclusively VA panels.

Thanks. Do Samsung sets have the problems you highlighted? I thought the Samsung sets like the F8000 were very highly regarded for LCD. If Vizio is planning to improve dark level and effective contrast ration (dark detail) on the P Series, do you think the use of VA panels was a good move or a bad move?

Sorry to pick your brain about this, but it sounds like you know a great deal more on the subject than I do...

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post #466 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:05 PM
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Yeah, that is the article the venus933 found earlier in the thread that kicked off this whole topic. Do you have any ide what this is supposed to mean:

"VA panels have an easier time "locking" instances of liquid crystal within the panel, which makes for more exacting local dimming in LED-based televisions like the PS55."?????

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post #467 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:08 PM
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Lets not fall for rumors now. Any LCD panel can have trailing and other artifacts. The best LCD of 2013 was the w900a, which used a special VA panel that was designed and produced only for the w900a. It has a native refresh rate of 240hz and handled motion excellently. Id rather have a VA panel than IPS due to the much deeper contrast. The f8000 and all other top tier tv's use VA panels, including the sharp elite.
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post #468 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:21 PM
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Lets not fall for rumors now. Any LCD panel can have trailing and other artifacts. The best LCD of 2013 was the w900a, which used a special VA panel that was designed and produced only for the w900a. It has a native refresh rate of 240hz and handled motion excellently. Id rather have a VA panel than IPS due to the much deeper contrast. The f8000 and all other top tier tv's use VA panels, including the sharp elite.

Thanks - that all I need to know for now...

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p.s. any idea what the articles reference to 'locking' was all about?
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post #469 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:34 PM
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Thanks - that all I need to know for now...

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p.s. any idea what the articles reference to 'locking' was all about?

I assume they were talking about the ability of the liquid crystal to twist to the closed position, blocking any light from spilling through.
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post #470 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

The best LCD of 2013 was the w900a, which used a special VA panel that was designed and produced only for the w900a. It has a native refresh rate of 240hz and handled motion excellently. Id rather have a VA panel than IPS due to the much deeper contrast. The f8000 and all other top tier tv's use VA panels, including the sharp elite.

As Jules said to Marsellus in Pulp Fiction:

"S*** negro, that's all you had to say"

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post #471 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 09:45 PM
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I assume they were talking about the ability of the liquid crystal to twist to the closed position, blocking any light from spilling through.

Thanks. So just superior 'OFF' position light blocking capability - very strange use of language... (but consistent with superior native contrast ratio of VA over IPS).

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post #472 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 10:13 PM
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The Prices of the P-Series are just astonishing to me in that they are 4K Ultra HD Sets.

Man O Man ... I may be able to live without 3D if these things bring PQ like I hope they will!!!
You have to wonder why they don't have an 80" P. Looking at the pricing I think it would list for $3999.00. Unless they think it would compete to much with the 65" R. Good for me I want an 80 so with m being their best 80" I don't have fight over spending the extra for a 80" P.
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You have to wonder why they don't have an 80" P. Looking at the pricing I think it would list for $3999.00. Unless they think it would compete to much with the 65" P. Good for me I want an 80 so with m being their best 80" I don't have fight over spending the extra for a 80" P.
Allen

As the LCD panel gets bigger, the cost does not increase linearly. It increases exponentially so price would be extremely high.
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Maybe $4500.00 but at that price that is still a good deal , but for all of the questions about 4k I wouldn't buy it. All I want is the M to have a good picture and no SOE I hate motion that is why I have plasmas now but they as 50" and I want bigger. I passed on the Panasonic 65" this year because I wanted bigger. Thought about a 70" but said no going with a 80". I am in no hurry though because I am going to do some building in my room with a built in audio rack extend a wall run my cables in the walls and add some power outlets. By that time we should have some good feed back from the new Tv's.
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I found an article that confirms the panels used on the P-series Vizio. I have concerns about the use of VA panels and overdrive trailing associated with the low inherent refresh rate. I fill vi MBBewing angles could be an issue as well.http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/vizio-ps55-first-impressions-review

 

I'm a little disappointed it uses a VA panel, as I was really wanting to switch from my Samsung F6300 (which uses a VA panel) to one of the new Vizios due to the bad viewing angles I get with my TV. I believe Vizio used LG's IPS panels in the past, which have very good viewing angles. :(

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I hope cnet does a 70" review this year of the M series.
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post #477 of 4808 Old 01-14-2014, 11:45 PM
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You have to wonder why they don't have an 80" P. Looking at the pricing I think it would list for $3999.00. Unless they think it would compete to much with the 65" R. Good for me I want an 80 so with m being their best 80" I don't have fight over spending the extra for a 80" P.
Allen

You won't have 4K though on the M-Series ..... If I made the switch AT ALL this year it would be for two reason .... better PQ with Rear-Array and 4K UHD!!!
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post #478 of 4808 Old 01-15-2014, 12:51 AM
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On a bigger screen 4k would be nice. But I agree with some of the others how will it look up scaled from non 4k to 4k. And is their enough content to make the price of admission worth it. But it is like a lot of things in this hobby of ours, if someone builds it someone will buy it. All I want is and 80" TV with good pq and if it not 4k I am okay with that for now . I really don't want to have to change my receiver out just yet any way.
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post #479 of 4808 Old 01-15-2014, 05:51 AM
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Lets not fall for rumors now. Any LCD panel can have trailing and other artifacts. The best LCD of 2013 was the w900a, which used a special VA panel that was designed and produced only for the w900a. It has a native refresh rate of 240hz and handled motion excellently. Id rather have a VA panel than IPS due to the much deeper contrast. The f8000 and all other top tier tv's use VA panels, including the sharp elite.

Ive been looking at the 850 65" version, that thing has great reviews.

65" VT50 / BDP-S6200
X4000 / Outlaw Model 7125
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post #480 of 4808 Old 01-15-2014, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Ive been looking at the 850 65" version, that thing has great reviews.

I've been looking at the same tv. If i can find a deal on it, I'd jump on it instead of waiting for the P series.

2014 Sharp 70SQ15U
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