2014 Vizio Thread All models - Page 187 - AVS Forum
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post #5581 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iceblast View Post
I know what you mean about seeing the LED's through the gray screen.

My only comment about that though is, you rarely ever see DSE on the 2014 Vizio, and if you do, it's a split second, and it's gone. I honestly don't think it's a big deal, and I wouldn't take the set back because of it. Because every other brand LED is going to cost hundreds more, and they are going to have their own little second problems as well.

If dropping $2k on a tv is no big deal to you, then go for it. But if saving every dollar you can is important to you, then the Vizio isn't a bad investment. Most people can't afford to nitpick, so they need to stop looking so very closely at every possible little flaw.
DSE was very noticeable on my M492i-B2 sample and Cedric points out significant DSE with his E600i-B3 sample. It seems to be a problem with at least some of Vizio's 2014 FA models. I can only speak for my sample but by the same token you can only speak for your sample. Hopefully this isn't an issue on the P series as expectations are higher on more expensive televisions.

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post #5582 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
DSE was very noticeable on my M492i-B2 sample and Cedric points out significant DSE with his E600i-B3 sample. It seems to be a problem with at least some of Vizio's 2014 FA models. I can only speak for my sample but by the same token you can only speak for your sample. Hopefully this isn't an issue on the P series as expectations are higher on more expensive televisions.
>>At first glance, the gray uniformity seems really good. But if you look more attentively, you can see every single LED behind the LCD layer. In the picture above, you can see a 14x8 grid. This creates a significant dirty screen effect when an object moves over a solid background (like when watching sports).<<

Extremely rarely see a solid color that fills the screen while watching anything, then it would have to move left or right just right. Even while watching sports, there is so much happening on the screen most of the time, that you would have to have just the right conditions just to see that split second of DSE, and then you'll only think you imagined it.

This DSE isn't something that stays on the screen, it's a rare quick flash, in just the right combinations of events, and those events don't really happen that often.

The only sport I watch is tennis, but I watch all kinds of different video. In my experience, DSE is rare, and is so fast, that you can't even focus on it.

Even Cedric says you have to really look for it. His word was attentive. So, it's more a non-issue. It would be different if you could see the single LEDs most of the time you were watching, but a rare split second, once a day, really isn't a deal breaker IMO.

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post #5583 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 09:31 PM
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Katzmaier has been evaluating televisions for over a decade and I think his resume and credentials are very impressive. He’s well respected and highly regarded in the community and the industry.
EDITED :
I commented on that above .

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Originally Posted by venus933
And we’re going to have to agree to disagree on both the data and comprehensiveness of the cnet reviews compared to rtings. IMO cnet is very good in both categories. For data there’s the link to the I find his write ups to be very thorough especially the effort he takes to compare upscale 1080p PQ on UHD televisions to those of 1080p televisions.
IMO Cnet's fine for the 99% but not all that . I commented on that above .

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Originally Posted by venus933
I thought the review of the TCL smart TV was very well done, so well done he actually makes a compelling case why this isn't an excellent TV. However we both strongly disagree with the weight he gave to Roku’s integration, but saying that doesn't invalidate the thoroughness of the review. Trust me, sometimes I have issues with his scoring system but that can be overcome by applying your own priorities.
I commented on my issues with that review conclusion and scoring above and noted Katzmaier's credible offer of a better picture alternative in the arguably superior Visio .


. IMO embedded smart TV functionality in a low price set with poor picture quality is a poor resource allocation TCL could have invested more in picture quality and added a ready made Roku Stick option and saved the Imbedded Roku investment for a better quality set down the line or maybe included imbedded Roku made this set better (if they could ) and priced it accordingly .



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Both Sound and Vision and cnet have opined that the dimming scheme on the E series noticeably improves contrast and overall PQ. On the other side some users and rtings prefer to have it off.
In the end we probably agree more than we disagree given your real TV.
I like Rtings .com and HDTVtest reviews better and I have a low tolerance for issues that FALD as implemented in the Visio's I've seen so far present same thing with most Edge lit zone dimming sets I'm not fond of those as a rule .
The Visio E measured very good black and contrast on it's own without FALD at rtings.com that's probably a Sharp ASV panel whatever they did those are good numbers for an LCD . I wonder how the smaller sets with different panels would do with FALD off .

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I thought the 2014 HDTV shootout was telling though on the chances the P series has to impress me enough to consider it.
I don't see any correlation between the V.E. Shoot out and The Visio P model at all they didn't have one .I don't expect the P to be an XBR or f8500 slayer , maybe the R might be appropriate there if it materializes .

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post #5584 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 09:48 PM
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Great Cesar's ghost. We get it you're not a fan of CNet. These pages of posts on what review site is the best is getting a little crazy. The great thing we have is choice and there are a handful of good review sites out there. It doesn't make one better than the other as all have their share of faults. It can't be said enough that you shouldn't copy settings do to
Variance in manufacturing. Copying the settings is an easy way out, but you may end up with a worse picture than you started with. Sighhhhhh I've never seen so much back and forth on one review site that is reputable before.


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post #5585 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by iceblast View Post
>>At first glance, the gray uniformity seems really good. But if you look more attentively, you can see every single LED behind the LCD layer. In the picture above, you can see a 14x8 grid. This creates a significant dirty screen effect when an object moves over a solid background (like when watching sports).<<

Extremely rarely see a solid color that fills the screen while watching anything, then it would have to move left or right just right. Even while watching sports, there is so much happening on the screen most of the time, that you would have to have just the right conditions just to see that split second of DSE, and then you'll only think you imagined it.

This DSE isn't something that stays on the screen, it's a rare quick flash, in just the right combinations of events, and those events don't really happen that often.

The only sport I watch is tennis, but I watch all kinds of different video. In my experience, DSE is rare, and is so fast, that you can't even focus on it.

Even Cedric says you have to really look for it. His word was attentive. So, it's more a non-issue. It would be different if you could see the single LEDs most of the time you were watching, but a rare split second, once a day, really isn't a deal breaker IMO.
When Cedric stated you really have to look for it he was talking about noticing the array of LEDs behind the gray uniformity screen, not the DSE which is the consequence of having the LEDs visible. Hence why he stated it creates a significant dirty screen effect when an object moves over a solid background. When you have a scene where you do notice DSE it lasts as long as the camera pans. If you're watching a PGA golf tournament it's noticed every time the camera pans the fairway which occurs quite often.

I'm not saying DSE is noticed with every scene but it will be noticed against mono backgrounds such as a cloudy sky or golf fairways when ever the camera pans. Obviously it's not a deal breaker as Cedric gave the E600i-B3 a good overall review and consider it an excellent value.

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post #5586 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 10:40 PM
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I don't see any correlation between the V.E. Shoot out and The Visio P model at all they didn't have one .I don't expect the P to be an XBR or f8500 slayer , maybe the R might be appropriate there if it materializes .
My point was that if the best efforts from Sony and Samsung with their LCD units were not able to stand up to the F8500 what chance does Vizio have with the P series? But it wouldn't surprise me if the P series was nearly as good or on par with those LCD sets however. The R series may be a game changer for a LCD. As for the rest of your post I'll let Ph8te's post be the last word.

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post #5587 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 11:04 PM
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Great Cesar's ghost. We get it you're not a fan of CNet. These pages of posts on what review site is the best is getting a little crazy. The great thing we have is choice and there are a handful of good review sites out there. It doesn't make one better than the other as all have their share of faults. It can't be said enough that you shouldn't copy settings do to
Variance in manufacturing. Copying the settings is an easy way out, but you may end up with a worse picture than you started with. Sighhhhhh I've never seen so much back and forth on one review site that is reputable before.


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post #5588 of 5781 Old 09-12-2014, 11:33 PM
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My point was that if the best efforts from Sony and Samsung with their LCD units were not able to stand up to the F8500 what chance does Vizio have with the P series? But it wouldn't surprise me if the P series was nearly as good or on par with those LCD sets however. The R series may be a game changer for a LCD. As for the rest of your post I'll let Ph8te's post be the last word.
Since Visio doesn't make some new revolutionary LCD panels or cells that we know of I wouldn't expect any revolutionary miracles out of either the P or the R . They might be real good sets though .


LCD has inherent weaknesses that Samsung ,Sony and LG and Panasonic have not overcome with their considerable expertise and R&D and even with Samsung and LGD being major panel suppliers and manufacturers .


Arguably Samsung ,Sony , LG and Panasonic have the best state of the video processing available I don't see Visio topping that anytime soon unless they come up with a new LCD panel nobodys seen before . Samsung ,Sony , LG and Panasonic aren't asleep at the wheel although there has been cause to wonder about that now and then .


OTOH Visio P and R could score some major 4K price to picture value and maybe parity with some name brand 4K models .
I wouldn't count Panasonic out either !

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post #5589 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 06:37 AM
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Local dimming was supposed to be the primary feature of the E series.....and it performs better without it?
16 zones isn't enough and I question if 32 are on a 60" panel. It surely isn't on a 70 or 80 panel.

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post #5590 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 06:53 AM
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I can't believe that blurry of an image gets a 7.5 score for motion. LCD sure has a new frame of reference that is for sure. The do appear to be consistent on their ratings but that should be about a 2 in my book. Every CRT ever made would be an 11 based on their current scale. :-)
It isn't clear to me what those screen shots are suppose to look like under the shooting conditions. You have to do a comparison with all the sets he has tested to try to make heads or tails out of that test.

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post #5591 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 07:06 AM
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It isn't clear to me what those screen shots are suppose to look like under the shooting conditions. You have to do a comparison with all the sets he has tested to try to make heads or tails out of that test.
I agree, there should be a CRT or plasma as reference but in their plasma section they post videos rather than stills so can't compare.
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post #5592 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 07:48 AM
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10w vs 15w speakers for B3 vs B2 panels

I've noticed all the B3 (70"/60") sets have 10W speakers and the B2 (65"/55") sets have 15W speakers. This is for all E,M,P series.

I wonder how much difference there is, I suspect minimal, but curious why they do that too. More available space in the B2 sets?

I usually use the tv speakers, for movie nights I'll run it thru my sound system but that's not often. I'm getting the P series 55" so hoping it's got decent speakers.
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post #5594 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 08:20 AM
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I've noticed all the B3 (70"/60") sets have 10W speakers and the B2 (65"/55") sets have 15W speakers. This is for all E,M,P series.



I wonder how much difference there is, I suspect minimal, but curious why they do that too. More available space in the B2 sets?



I usually use the tv speakers, for movie nights I'll run it thru my sound system but that's not often. I'm getting the P series 55" so hoping it's got decent speakers.

Could be based on panel, but I doubt you'll hear any significant gain in one over the other. Not sure there is anyone who has had both and can do a side by side.


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post #5595 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 08:59 AM
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Local dimming was supposed to be the primary feature of the E series.....and it performs better without it? Hopefully the P has its act together and we weren't all "got" by their marketing.
Professional reviewers with the exception of the rtings review have indicated the E series performs better with it engaged.

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post #5596 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 09:22 AM
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Since Visio doesn't make some new revolutionary LCD panels or cells that we know of I wouldn't expect any revolutionary miracles out of either the P or the R . They might be real good sets though.

LCD has inherent weaknesses that Samsung ,Sony and LG and Panasonic have not overcome with their considerable expertise and R&D and even with Samsung and LGD being major panel suppliers and manufacturers.

Arguably Samsung ,Sony , LG and Panasonic have the best state of the video processing available I don't see Visio topping that anytime soon unless they come up with a new LCD panel nobodys seen before . Samsung ,Sony , LG and Panasonic aren't asleep at the wheel although there has been cause to wonder about that now and then.

OTOH Visio P and R could score some major 4K price to picture value and maybe parity with some name brand 4K models .
I wouldn't count Panasonic out either !
Ref series:

Dolby HDR processing that covers 80% of the Rec. 2020 color space
800 nits
384 dimming zones

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post #5597 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 10:28 AM
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Ref series:

Dolby HDR processing that covers 80% of the Rec. 2020 color space
800 nits
384 dimming zones
Sounds like they are hunting the higher end LCD with the R and looking for parity with some of the tier one brands and wanting to move into that group . Hopefully they will actually have Foxconn ,Wistron or (~ TVP 25% owners of Visio ) or somebody like that actually make the things someday . Those are respectable specifications on paper. I'm thinking maybe Foxconn
they are not unfamiliar with premium products and there is the 110" Visio by Foxconn discussion they are not unfamiliar with premium products and there is the 110" Visio by Foxconn discussion .

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post #5598 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 10:42 AM
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Sounds like they are hunting the higher end and looking for parity with some of the tier one brands and wanting to move into that group . Hopefully they will actually have Foxconn ,Wistron or (TVP 25% owners of Visio ) or somebody like that actually make the things someday . Those are respectable specifications on paper .
Have you done any research lol... I admire that you love all the top brands, but what have they done to warrant any loyalty this year. I considered sony, samsung, lg, and I'm still considering others. What I've noticed is that all of them being edge lit have flaws that I feel out weight whatever else they have to offer. Imo opinion seeing the banding, clouding, and flash lighting, just eliminated them from my list. Also to be fair some of vizios sets had banding and dse, but what separates them is cost. On a 3k+ set I find some of these flaws unexceptable. Most of the people here can probably afford an xbr and have seen the same flaws as I and refuse to pay a premium for it. Now granted everyone's screaming go for oled.

Well when you compare the oled to the features a set like the R series has, the choice turns into pay more for a set with 4k and less feature that has it's own issues. Then on the other hand you can go for the reference series, which shouldn't have a bad price and more features. My position is to wait for when oled matures more has either full rec 2020,HDR, etc. none of them are perfect
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post #5599 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 11:34 AM
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Professional reviewers with the exception of the rtings review have indicated the E series performs better with it engaged.
It probably depends on the set model and panel sometimes the same models can have different panels . . ofc I've seen reviews completely contradict each other on the same set (maybe set/panel variations or testing procedures ?) I still prefer Rtings.com and HDTVtest over the others . IIRC Some of the smaller E series needed FALD on to get good blacks and acceptable contrast that were fairly decent with FALD on and not very good with FALD off.

Some review sites and Mfrs. measure contrast ratios and max luminance with a 90% black screen instead of a proper black and white checkerboard pattern that will usually give edge light zone dimming and FALD dimming set an advantage that may not correlate to actual performance in the field .


Some panels are better (contrast and black measurement ) with FALD on . That doesn't necessarily make it good over all and negate the issues that inexpensive FALD and processing accuracy and maybe other comprises bring
Usually no guarantee all the sets in a series and or size are going to have the same panels either .


Some reviewed loaner sets may be cherry picked by the mfrs also even if the review site doesn't know it . I prefer sites that review 100% retail sales channel sets and not loaners from mfrs when and if they can .


60" Visio E is probably a decent Sharp ASV panel it measures just fine with FALD off at rtings.com other panels maybe even in the same model or a diferent size may not fare so well. Sony's are fairly consistent in that respect except for a few sizes in the 8 and 8.5x sets even at that the variations within the series by size are consistent though .
If know what panel Sony used in a series most of the time or in some cases a specific size and model that's what you get I think I read Visio was trying to do something like that .


In any event 32 or even 64 zones on a larger 250-350 nit panel probably won't do the trick like a high luminous high zone count FALD panel in the Sony XBR FALD and the Proposed Visio R should have .

OLED looks like the future of premium sets . Who knows Visio could always buy LGD WRGB OLED panels for a Q model you never know they seem to be making strategic up market moves ?

Looks like Visio has done a good job with the 60" E so far it looks very competitive at a lower price than some competing models .

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post #5600 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 12:43 PM
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Have you done any research lol... I admire that you love all the top brands, but what have they done to warrant any loyalty this year. I considered sony, samsung, lg, and I'm still considering others. What I've noticed is that all of them being edge lit have flaws that I feel out weight whatever else they have to offer. Imo opinion seeing the banding, clouding, and flash lighting, just eliminated them from my list. Also to be fair some of vizios sets had banding and dse, but what separates them is cost. On a 3k+ set I find some of these flaws unexceptable. Most of the people here can probably afford an xbr and have seen the same flaws as I and refuse to pay a premium for it. Now granted everyone's screaming go for oled.

Well when you compare the oled to the features a set like the R series has, the choice turns into pay more for a set with 4k and less feature that has it's own issues. Then on the other hand you can go for the reference series, which shouldn't have a bad price and more features. My position is to wait for when oled matures more has either full rec 2020,HDR, etc. none of them are perfect
It's going to take well beyond today's OLED to make a perfect set ofc then they have to make perfect cameras also.

OLED has much more premium quality potential and already proven picture quality being emissive displays than a passive LCD at any cost ask anyone that owns both decent LCD and Plasma or OLED or all 3 they will tell you in a minute . At the most I would expect the R to achieve parity with Sony and Samsung but I wouldn't count them or Panasonic out just yet after all the R is going to be using the same panels or more likely LCD cells that are available to all .



I haven't seen a Visio yet that can match my 2013 Samsung Plasma ,2013 Sony LED or 2012 Toshiba LED they come close to my 2013 LG LED in daylight although the LG isn't much at night with IPS panel and no FALD Visio should handily beat it there . I don't consider any of the Visio's I saw bad at all picture wise either and the pricing is good making them a not unreasonable choice for lot's of folks IMO they beat the pants off of a lot of lesser and similar sets by a country mile .


All edge lit panels may have issues some don't as much I can respect your position on them . Arguably the excellent 1080p Sony 850B isn't far off picture wise from the much more expensive XBR's and will beat any current Visio by enough to justify any cost difference to some arguably the 800/850B is the spot in Sony's line up if you aren't into 3D .



Unfortunately Visio Didn't get P out out for a pre release press review .

P may indeed be competitively a very good value 4K set or it could be just an OK unremarkable less expensive 4K set.

P or R could be made by Foxconn or TPV (~ 25% Visio owner ) or Wistron these are all current mfr. for Visio

OTOH I don't think Sony,Samsung,Panasonic or LG are sleeping in the premium 4 K space either
Sony is rumored to be discontinuing the excellent 1080P 8 and 8.5 sets I'm sure they have something interesting in 4K
coming out for those market slots. I like the proven reliability track records with me of the brands I own .


I have owned these same brands except LG without a failure for well over 20 yrs on the sets I had before I gave them away or sold some of them except for one that went out from a power surge .

Visio is not a bad value proposition at all . I don't expect that to change with the P . The R could be interesting if they build it looks like they will. Visio seems to be doing well and making strategic moves and isn't a bad choice for many they might even become a better 4K LCD choice or at least a sensible one in many cases. R looks very good on paper so does the P. Reviews of P at rtings.com will be interesting even more so with the R .

I don't care about features that don't enhance picture quality few of them do and are best left off anyway ,a Roku and PS3/4 have plenty of IPTV functionality . Just give me a good panel ,some HDMI ports and good video board and scaler and I can take care of the rest .

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post #5601 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 12:57 PM
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Unfortunately Visio Didn't get P out out for a pre release press review .
P may indeed be competitively a very good value 4K set or it could be just an OK unremarkable less expensive 4K set.
We'll find out soon enough when we get our meters and eyes on them.

And it's Vizio with a Z.

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post #5602 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 01:42 PM
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This thread has taken a turn for the worse.

Hopefully the sets come out soon so we actually have something to talk about.

My ES8000 settings, calibrated with an i1D3 and calman:
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post #5603 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 02:54 PM
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At least no one is talking about how great TiVo is.

Someone needs to add "speculation" to the threads title.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #5604 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 03:04 PM
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We'll find out soon enough when we get our meters and eyes on them.

And it's Vizio with a Z.
I just figured the 'Z' and 'S' keys were swapped on his keyboard.
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post #5605 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 03:20 PM
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Vizio ........cool it works now..........swapped my keys back like you said , must have screwed it up last time I took the keys off to clean the beer I spilled on the K.B. while I was laughing at a funny Youtube video awhile back

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #5606 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 03:49 PM
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This thread has taken a turn for the worse.

Hopefully the sets come out soon so we actually have something to talk about.
Hopefully soon we'll be discussing the nits on the P series when the manuals are released.

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post #5607 of 5781 Old 09-13-2014, 07:59 PM
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I agree. Both the E-Series and M-Series 'releases' were pretty soft releases with various size panels coming on line to replace the older panel of the same size in an ad-hoc basis. The P Series is a new Series for Vizio and it appears they are trying to coordinate more of a true release with most/all of the P-Series sizes all becoming available together post-launch rather than in dribs and drabs.


Less than 2 weeks now...
The light at the end of the tunnel is shining brighter. I ordered the P-65" this week from Visio and I feel so relieved that the wait is over.......until they release the R series Does anyone know a calibrator in the San Francisco Bay area?
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post #5608 of 5781 Old 09-14-2014, 01:42 AM
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I signed up to be notified when any of the P-Series models became available to order on Amazon and they just sent me notification that the P552ui-B2 is available which happened days ago. I already had it on order, but it could have been sold out by now if I had been relying on Amazon's notification (it isn't, but still ).
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post #5609 of 5781 Old 09-14-2014, 06:59 AM
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Professional reviewers with the exception of the rtings review have indicated the E series performs better with it engaged.
I have read the exact opposite.

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post #5610 of 5781 Old 09-14-2014, 07:25 AM
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I found a pre-order page on Target and they listed Sept. 23 as the release date. Walmart has a page too and lists it as shipping on the 25th.

http://www.target.com/p/vizio-55-cla...de=35-30350724
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