2014 Vizio Thread All models - Page 198 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-23-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ben7337 View Post
Can someone explain to me why a 60 hz panel needs to use 3:2 pulldown for 24fps rather than just switching to a 24hz mode where it only shows 24 fps exactly as intended? I mean, maybe I'm crazy, but I have an HTPC, and it supports 23.976 and 24hz refresh options among others, and there seems to be countless software options that switch the refresh rate for just such things. Are people saying that all 60hz panels can onyl do 60hz and not any other slower rates? Or is it possible I'm not using 3:2 pulldown and am seeing things as they were meant to, without needing 120hz?

For what it's worth, my HTPC uses integrated graphics, so it can't go beyond 60hz anyway, I have the E701i-A3 from last year, and I believe it is a true 120hz panel, but the only way to do 120hz would be to buy an expensive separate gpu just to have such an option.
TVs have a native refresh rate and always display content at that rate. So if a TV is 60hz it has to do 3:2 on 24hz signal to get it to 60hz. A 120hz TV would just to 5:5 on 24hx to get to 120hz.
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
TVs have a native refresh rate and always display content at that rate. So if a TV is 60hz it has to do 3:2 on 24hz signal to get it to 60hz. A 120hz TV would just to 5:5 on 24hx to get to 120hz.
So just to make sure I'm understanding, the Vizio 700i-B3 is a 60hz panel, it uses 3:2 pulldown and there is no escaping this fact. It strobes the LED backlight 120 times per second, which somehow makes it 120hz effective, but overall it's just a gimmick and the tv is going to have a lot of juddering? I ask because I am replacing my 701i-A3 with one, and if it's going to look like garbage with juddering multiple times a second, I may just want to sell it and get something else.

Further research on another thread here says that it does 24 fps just fine, without 3:2 pulldown, but doesn't explain the how or details, and then another post says someone asked somewhere else and was told 24fps means the tv does 24fps now, and 3:2 pulldown was only an issue before tv's could take that sort of input and refresh at that rate. Can anyone confirm?

Also how do monitors compare to TV's in this sense, I know many monitors take multiple inputs as well, and back in the day of CRT's is actually had meaning, but are all monitors 60 or 120hz and just converting whatever input they get, or can they actually change to 24hz and display things correctly?

Last edited by ben7337; 11-23-2014 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:30 PM
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So the only way to get true 120hz, is to have an htpc or 3d blu ray player with 120hz capabilities, an AVR that supports 120hz passthrough, and a tv that is true 120hz not 60hz with an effective 120hz refresh rate?

In that case, why does anyone even use the 23/24hz refresh rates on HTPCs when they could just do 120hz native and call it good, having the HTPC do the work rather than the tv? Also why haven't I seen 120hz in any of the best quality guides for setting up an HTPC? Is it even something that exists for the common person?
Most TVs will not accept 120hz signals as there is no 120hz content.
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ben7337 View Post
So the only way to get true 120hz, is to have an htpc or 3d blu ray player with 120hz capabilities, an AVR that supports 120hz passthrough, and a tv that is true 120hz not 60hz with an effective 120hz refresh rate?



In that case, why does anyone even use the 23/24hz refresh rates on HTPCs when they could just do 120hz native and call it good, having the HTPC do the work rather than the tv? Also why haven't I seen 120hz in any of the best quality guides for setting up an HTPC? Is it even something that exists for the common person?

The display is the only one that is fixed. An HTPC can output multiple rates. The HTPC and Blu-Ray output 24Hz because that's what then source is encoded in (movies). The TV is the one that needs to be able to display it. 120hz is NOT what the source is in which is where I think your getting confused.


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Old 11-23-2014, 08:37 PM
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The display is the only one that is fixed. An HTPC can output multiple rates. The HTPC and Blu-Ray output 24Hz because that's what then source is encoded in (movies). The TV is the one that needs to be able to display it. 120hz is NOT what the source is in which is where I think your getting confused.


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So on a 120hz vizio which is actually 60hz, how does a 24fps video get to 60hz without some sort of judder doing 3:2 pulldown or something else?

Also, I found a thread from 2010 which seems to also say many tv's go to 48hz to properly display 24fps when a tv can't do 120hz native, or at least the decent tv's from 2010 did, I don't see why all modern tv's wouldn't do something similar now when the panel is only 60hz

1080/24p on a 60hz HDTV
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Old 11-24-2014, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben7337 View Post
Can someone explain to me why a 60 hz panel needs to use 3:2 pulldown for 24fps rather than just switching to a 24hz mode where it only shows 24 fps exactly as intended? I mean, maybe I'm crazy, but I have an HTPC, and it supports 23.976 and 24hz refresh options among others, and there seems to be countless software options that switch the refresh rate for just such things. Are people saying that all 60hz panels can onyl do 60hz and not any other slower rates? Or is it possible I'm not using 3:2 pulldown and am seeing things as they were meant to, without needing 120hz?

For what it's worth, my HTPC uses integrated graphics, so it can't go beyond 60hz anyway, I have the E701i-A3 from last year, and I believe it is a true 120hz panel, but the only way to do 120hz would be to buy an expensive separate gpu just to have such an option.
I don't believe the 701 is true 120Hz, I think it is 60Hz like the 700. I spent a LOT of time in the last few weeks figuring that out. The reason they don't do actual 24fps is it would look wrong, theaters use 48 or 72 fps. I don't understand why they can't use 48, being less than 60, and I think it would probably look fine.

That being said, 3:2 pulldown, is't a real big deal, people get caught up in it, but it isn't very noticeable.

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Old 11-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by brad1138 View Post
I don't believe the 701 is true 120Hz, I think it is 60Hz like the 700. I spent a LOT of time in the last few weeks figuring that out. The reason they don't do actual 24fps is it would look wrong, theaters use 48 or 72 fps. I don't understand why they can't use 48, being less than 60, and I think it would probably look fine.

That being said, 3:2 pulldown, is't a real big deal, people get caught up in it, but it isn't very noticeable.
Last year's E701 was indeed 120hz. This year's E700 is not.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:09 PM
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I have an M series 55" Vizio and the remote is almost causing me to have a breakdown (kidding sorta )
Can anyone help me understand wth is going thing? Not sure of the exact model number of the TV but the remote is the Vizio XRT510.

I am able to program the remote to control my Fios box (QIP7100-1) but the volume button won't control the TV volume. If i hard reboot the remote it will control the TV but not the Fios box, anyone know if there is a way to control the Cable box AND the volume up/down buttons? There should be a way to transfer between the TV and the cable box but i can't figure out how. There are no TV/Cab/SAT/Aux buttons on the XRT510

Thanks in Advance
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:34 PM
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Techlicious' 3 Best TVs Under $1000 (part of their holiday shopping guide) were all Vizio, two M-Series and one E-Series.
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Old 11-24-2014, 03:28 PM
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Post that in one of the Samsung threads.

That seems more of a commentary than a review since he mentions other review sites.

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Old 11-28-2014, 05:03 PM
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So Im wondering exactly what panel is in the Vizio M502i-B1. I really like the M422i's panel but wish that it had a center row of zones instead of only Left + Right rows of 7 zones. I think I may repurchase an M422i to go with the Samusng 51F5300 plasma. Something a
bit smaller (but still pretty large).

Missed the M401i fire sale. That set was nice too. Of what's out there in the 40"-42" size I really like the Sony 40W600 and the Panasonics and Toshibas.

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Old 12-08-2014, 04:36 AM
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I've read most of the posts in this thread, but I have one question. How bad is the contrast level of the 55" IPS display vs the E series 55" VA under similar light conditions? I assume the local dimming counteracts the IPS contrast issues, but does anyone have any experience with the 55" p-series compared to other models?

I have a 55" E-series that I might return if the local dimming on the 55" P-series makes the display better. I do notice some local dimming issues on the E-series, so that is the reason for the possible switch.

Thanks!
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:49 PM
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How bad is the contrast level of the 55" IPS display vs the E series 55" VA under similar light conditions?
AFAIC, no where near as bad as most seem to make out. Now, w/o the local dimming, that is another story. The advantage of the wider viewing angle overweighs the slight drop in black level. Of course, this depends on how the set is adjusted and just how dark the room is. I always have at least one light on. Not bright, but not dim either. Equivalent to a 60 watt incandescent bulb in a table lamp.

But, the increase of ghosting trails from moving images and the additional drop in detail level was the deal killer over a VA panel.

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Old 12-08-2014, 01:56 PM
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So it would be best to "downgrade" to the p50 vs getting the p55 if I want the best in local dimming and contrast? Can't really justify the p60 price.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:59 PM
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Only you can decide that by viewing them in your environment. Have you just considered the M series? Are you a 'gamer' and that is why you want a 4k set? I have serious reservations about any of the 4k sets.
You can't even get true 1080 material except on a BluRay player. Except for maybe sports where extra bandwidth is allocated for transmission. I have seen enough network programming and it's debatable if it was really HD.

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Old 12-08-2014, 03:04 PM
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So it would be best to "downgrade" to the p50 vs getting the p55 if I want the best in local dimming and contrast? Can't really justify the p60 price.

That's up to you. Just avoid Walmart's P502ui-B1E and get the P502ui-B1 (no "E") if you'd prefer 120Hz native refresh to a 60Hz. We don't have much owner feedback on the B1 yet, though some on the B1E. (Walmart will probably frequently deeply discount it and thereby sell a ton of them to people who don't know and/or care about the difference. They've already sold a few to people who do care and didn't realize the difference who've posted in the P-Series owner's thread).

I had the P552ui-B2 for a few weeks before deciding to upgrade to the P602ui-B3 (I'd paid Walmart full price for the latter and bought the P60 with a 10% off Best Buy coupon purchased for $5 on eBay, for a price difference of about $145). I'd call the different in dark room contrast a lot more than "slight". However, the P55 dials in colors nearly perfectly when calibrated by a pro whereas getting reds right on the P60 and P70 is tricky (both are Sharp panels). No one is sure who makes the P50 panels (might be different OEMs for the B1 and B1E); it's thought that the P65 is made by AOU.

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Old 12-09-2014, 04:47 AM
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Not a gamer, just interested in the best black level for a led. I'm coming from a panasonic 8uk plasma which has the black level bug, so the black level is much higher than it used to be. Not overly distracting with lights, but is distracting in the dark. Can't imagine the contrast ratio is better than 1000:1 at this point, it started at 3000:1 in 2006.

I currently plan on using the vizio in a dimly lit basement, so black level is important. I figured the FALD would be the answer, however it appears the P series has a number of issues (sharpness bug, etc) that upgrading may not be the best plan. Once the 8uk dies I'll be moving the vizio to the main viewing room so in the end I am looking for the best picture at a decent price.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:11 PM
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...it appears the P series has a number of issues (sharpness bug, etc)...

Most of us owners can't perceive the sharpness bug, including one seasoned professional calibrator. AFAIK, only fafrd can see what the reviewers mean. The televisions otherwise have a few quirks but there are no perfect products with this much firmware. (I worked on mobile phone firmware for years and products would typically ship with hundreds of known medium to low severity bugs).

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Old 12-09-2014, 05:13 PM
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can anyone tell me whether the 32 inch M Series TV (M322i-B1) has an actual, native 120hz refresh rate? i was pretty sure it did, going by vizio's advertising literature and different reviews but Amazon (amzn.to/1yzdroS, about 1/3 down) has it listed as a 60hz TV. so that, and it being advertised as an "effective" refresh rate has me raising my eyebrows a bit. im a TV novice so any help would be much appreciated.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:32 PM
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can anyone tell me whether the 32 inch M Series TV (M322i-B1) has an actual, native 120hz refresh rate? i was pretty sure it did, going by vizio's advertising literature and different reviews but Amazon (amzn.to/1yzdroS, about 1/3 down) has it listed as a 60hz TV. so that, and it being advertised as an "effective" refresh rate has me raising my eyebrows a bit. im a TV novice so any help would be much appreciated.

I can only tell you that 120Hz effective refresh rate for the P502ui-B1E turned out to mean 60Hz native refresh rate as determined by owner testing and Vizio customer service testimony.

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Old 12-09-2014, 07:52 PM
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Most of us owners can't perceive the sharpness bug, including one seasoned professional calibrator. AFAIK, only fafrd can see what the reviewers mean. The televisions otherwise have a few quirks but there are no perfect products with this much firmware. (I worked on mobile phone firmware for years and products would typically ship with hundreds of known medium to low severity bugs).

All I stated was that I noticed what appeared to be enhanced highlights on eyeballs several times with my P70 ("glowing eyeballs"). To be honest, after watching quite a few movies on the TV now that I have it dialed in, either is was only noticeable on certain content or I have gotten used to it, because I really can't say I even notice it anymore.

The P70 delivers the blackest letterbox bars of any TV I have had in my house (including the 65ZT60 I had for two weeks this January). Calibrated to 100cd/m2 peak white output, I've measured the letterbox bars at 0.002cd/m2 during dark scenes from Dark Knight and Tron II and during typical scenes they increase to 0.004cd/m2 and during bright scene they can reach 0.007cd/m2.

The letterbox bars have finally pretty much disappeared during dark-room viewing of widescreen content - I don't notice them anymore when watching content. With the 65ZT60, they were darker than my IPS LED/LCD, but they were still noticeable.

Attached is an image from Tron II off of my P70 that I snapped with my iPhone.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:26 AM
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can anyone tell me whether the 32 inch M Series TV (M322i-B1) has an actual, native 120hz refresh rate?
If there is no mention pof refresh rate, then it is only the native 60Hz.
If 10Hz is mentioned , then for all intensive purposes it is still a 60Hz panel with the processing doubling that figure which is highly debateable if it is really any improvement other than an another marketing ploy.

Now, if it say 240Hz, you can figure it is a native 120Hz panel, but there is no guarantee. At least that is what I have found after looking through dozens of spec sheets and reading even more reviews.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

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Old 12-11-2014, 11:26 PM
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hmm. thanks, all.

so, bruce, you'd be pretty confident the 42 inch M-Series variant (*******/1AlMsQ8) is 120hz? call me kinky but i'm actually looking for a set with the soap opera effect. i've read that only 120hz sets and above are capable of motion interpolation so it's why i've been focusing on this particular attribute, especially as it relates to vizio. it's come down to the vizio or the samsung h6203 (*******/1vV2Et1), but due to price i'm trying to talk myself into the vizio.

i know some of the M series tvs have an IPS panel which is supposed to hurt it's low-light performance and contrast (or was it black levels?). does anyone know whether the 42 inch is one of these? also, can anyone who owns the 42 inch speak to 1) motion interpolation and 2) motion blur performance. Rtings, which i think are reliable, give the edge re motion blur to the samsung (which is pertinent only insofar as gaming is a hobby and a substantial consideration as a shop for a new tv, and good motion processing is on the checklist). those are the two things holding me back from the vizio atm so any information or advice would, as always, go much appreciated. and if you think i should just go with the samsung, that input (and your generous funding) would be valuable as well.

thanks
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:06 PM
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Seriously, where the hell is the reference series. I'm so sick of waiting for this tv. Any news or updates guys?
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Old 12-12-2014, 11:08 PM
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Seriously, where the hell is the reference series. I'm so sick of waiting for this tv. Any news or updates guys?

The last Vizio had to say about it was that it wouldn't make it out by the end of the year and that it would be coming in 2015.

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Old Today, 07:32 PM
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Vizio M422i-B1

I recently purchased a Vizio M422i-B1 for a loft space in our home. I like the tv but I am experiencing a very annoying issue that I have not been able to solve for. I created a custom calibration for the picture called Custom 3. I select that setting and away we go with viewing a nice picture. The problem is when I shut off the TV and the next time its turned on it automatically defaults to the factory Standard picture setting. I then have to manually select my Custom 3 setting to get back to the picture I want to view. Every-time the TV is turned off/on it defaults back to the Standard picture setting....

Anyone else experience this problem? I have several flat panels and not one of the others in my home do this. Rather, they all retain the picture setting last used or chosen.

Thanks.

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