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post #1261 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Not all tv's of the same model number have the same parts. Samsungs sold in walmarts will have lesser parts compared to other retailers. Even tv's of the same model number. Samsung has specifications for the chips used in their tv's that they will accept and retailers have another set of specifications on what they will accept.
So depending on how chips bin out you'll end up with chips that pass with flying colors in tv's destined to stores like bestbuy while chips that barely pass are in tv's sent to walmart.

I know this is true for Samsung. I assume it's true for other manufacturers. How do I know this? Because I work at a company that makes chips for Samsung and many others. The advice we received from our General Manager, Never buy a TV from walmart!

You know, I have noticed that with other products at Walmart also. Most recently a Ninja blender. Same exact make and model number, except the Walmart blender has a 600 watt motor instead of an 700 watt motor like everywhere else, just so Walmart can sell it for $10 less. I wonder about the legality of this? They used to at least add a letter onto the model number to show it was special to the discount chains.

If this is true, I agree with you regarding questionable legality. Are you certain there was no way to differentiate the 600W model from the 700W model including model year? I have found products with identical codes but one from one model year and another from a different model year. They can be sold in parallel under the same model number which is confusing, but the model year can be sussed out which is a way to distinguish them. Truly identical products in all marking respects with different specifications would be a nightmare and I am not sure it would be legal. Among other things, the support from the manufacturers website including download of the manual which includes specifications would be a nightmare. I am certain that downloading a manual that specifies a 700W motor for a product that actually only contains a 600W motor would not be legal. When you go to the manufacturers website for your Ninja Blender, what specification does it have for the model number Walmart is selling???

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post #1262 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

The specs don't vary. Just the quality of the parts. All chips are the same chips. Just some passed at lower specification levels than others and are placed in tv's destined for different stores.

I don't know how the sets are marked or shipped. All I know is what we were told.
I still maintain these would be identifiable. Didn't Vizio have a modified model number with an "e" suffix that was said to used to "track" sales to a particular retail chain? I've seen this type of thing before. The point is they can be identified. I added in "lot" number as a possibility, which would not be obvious, but lot numbers are not used in that way. I worked in consumer electronics for 8 years doing product management and never saw that. Lot numbers track production over time, not to specific retailers.
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post #1263 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 01:20 PM
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The specs don't vary. Just the quality of the parts. All chips are the same chips. Just some passed at lower specification levels than others and are placed in tv's destined for different stores.

I don't know how the sets are marked or shipped. All I know is what we were told.
I still maintain these would be identifiable. Didn't Vizio have a modified model number with an "e" suffix that was said to sued to "track" sales to a particular retail chain? I've seen this type of thing before. The point is they can be identified. I added in "lot" number as a possibility, which would not be obvious, but lot numbers are not used in that way. I worked in consumer electronics for 8 years doing product management and never saw that. Lot numbers track production over time, not to specific retailers.

Fully agree with everything you have written...

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post #1264 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 01:47 PM
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I still maintain these would be identifiable. Didn't Vizio have a modified model number with an "e" suffix that was said to sued to "track" sales to a particular retail chain? I've seen this type of thing before. The point is they can be identified. I added in "lot" number as a possibility, which would not be obvious, but lot numbers are not used in that way. I worked in consumer electronics for 8 years doing product management and never saw that. Lot numbers track production over time, not to specific retailers.
All I can tell you is what we've been told. I don't know how they are tracked or if there's a slight variation in model number or not. What I know is Walmart tvs, at least Samsung's, have inferior parts compared to other stores.
Perhaps they meant same model but different model number. They did not provide details.

Whatever the case may be, it is happening.

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post #1265 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 01:47 PM
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There have been special Costco packages with an extra letter or a different-but-close model number. Usually they throw in a cheap HDMI cable or something, but they could also be models with chipsets which didn't pass their tests as well as others.

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post #1266 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 02:06 PM
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I know what you mean, but I think people get confused by this.  It's more accurate to say that more dimming zones will deliver tighter regions.  The actual contrast and shadow detail doesn't technically change from 4 zones to 400.

 

Good point, I understood that too, but didn't realize someone might be confused by that. 
Overall you essentially getter "better contrast performance" though. 
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post #1267 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 02:43 PM
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Just joined, as I am patiently awaiting the arrival of the M-series. Subbed to this thread for updates.


And while I am here can someone talk about the advantages over the E series to the M series. And I list of specs won't really help, because I've already seen them. I guess what I am asking is the M series really worth the extra money? Will I be seeing that much more of a benefit to stepping up from E to M?


Yes.


Double the number of local dimming zones should deliver improved contrast and shadow-detail performance.

I know what you mean, but I think people get confused by this.  It's more accurate to say that more dimming zones will deliver tighter regions.  The actual contrast and shadow detail doesn't technically change from 4 zones to 400.

You are right - what I wrote off the cuff was not very clear.

I've edited the post so that it now says: 'Double the number of local dimming zones should deliver improved contrast and shadow-detail performance (versus no local dimming) with lower levels of blooming (than the E-Series with fewer dimming zones).'

A greater number of zones should provide the alternatives of:

A: increasing the contrast through the use of local dimming with no visible blooming (if minimizing blooming is the priority)

B: reducing visible blooming for equivalent contrast / shadow detail (if maximizing contrast is the priority)

C: finding a midpoint with both slightly improved contrast and slightly reduced visible blooming if that is the outcome that is desired


The bottom line is that more zones allow more flexibility to trade off improvements in contrast against visible blooming. Taken to the extreme of frame dimming (one zone for the entre screen), there is no visible blooming but the black level either bounces up and down if the dimming is activated (so occasionally better dark levels for dark scenes) or the black level is always poor but doesn't bounce around and remains constant...

Summarizing the impact of additional zones is at least a two variable equation and when you include the fact that any discussion regarding trade-off between shadow-detail / contrast and visible blooming is content-specific, it's a multi-dimensional space we are attempting to capture in a few simple words.

But the bottom line is, all other implementational aspects being equivalent, more dimming zones will always be better (or at least should not be worse), the extreme example being one-dimming-LED-per-pixel or OLED...

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post #1268 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

 

I know what you mean, but I think people get confused by this.  It's more accurate to say that more dimming zones will deliver tighter regions.  The actual contrast and shadow detail doesn't technically change from 4 zones to 400.



The more dimming zones you have, the more accurately the backlight brightness can be adapted to the specific brightness requirements of the specific scene being displayed. If there is no dimming zone on the screen where the contrast required goes beyond the native contrast capability of the LCD (generally 2000:1 up to a max of around 3000:1), there will be ZERO blooming. Dimming zones containing both very bright and very dark content that goes beyond native LCD contrast will have some blooming which may or may not be visible and distracting depending on the specific contents of the scene being displayed.

Then there is the question of boundaries between dimming zones and keeping those invisible, which may require lighting a dimming zone to a higher level than would be required for it's picture contents alone, but this is generally avoided pretty effectively and so amounts to the same thing (how well can the backlight brightness be adapted to the brightness requirements of the scene being displayed) and so again, more zones should always be better (or at least should not be any worse....).

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post #1269 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 03:19 PM
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Trolling google and youtube for M series info is getting so frustrating...
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post #1270 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 03:26 PM
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Costco or elsewhere?
Costco or amazon I think?
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post #1271 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 03:32 PM
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Trolling google and youtube for M series info is getting so frustrating...

What do you (or does anyone :-) make of this mysterious new video on YouTube??

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post #1272 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

All I can tell you is what we've been told. I don't know how they are tracked or if there's a slight variation in model number or not. What I know is Walmart tvs, at least Samsung's, have inferior parts compared to other stores.
Perhaps they meant same model but different model number. They did not provide details.

Whatever the case may be, it is happening.
If you read up on the class action lawsuit that hit Samsung, there had to be a lot of inferior parts that missed going to Walmart and went elsewhere.
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post #1273 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 04:19 PM
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Trolling google and youtube for M series info is getting so frustrating...

 

Agreed. 

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post #1274 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 04:21 PM
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If you read up on the class action lawsuit that hit Samsung, there had to be a lot of inferior parts that missed going to Walmart and went elsewhere.

Walmart was one that was told to us. I don't know if there are other stores that accept those same parts. I would assume there are.

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post #1275 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 05:56 PM
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It's not exactly a secret. Walmart says "this is the price you need to be at for this product". The manufacturer either does it for little profit just for the volume or cuts corners. This is why many of the model numbers (not necessarily just tvs) at walmart are not found elsewhere. You will find unique model numbers at other stores (target etc), presumably at lower quality than mainstream models one would find at best buy, amazon etc , but walmart has the most pull of any retailer and can squeeze their suppliers for all they are worth.

Ahh, alright. So if the model # is the same you SHOULD be ok? I don't buy big electronics from Walmart. Where I live I don't have any Electronics type store around for at least an hour drive. I use Amazon for quite a few bigger items, as long as they get the top quality stuff I'm good. Thanks for clearing that up.

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post #1276 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 06:06 PM
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Why would Samsung even let their chip providers in on this scheme? The chip company would just need to let Samsung know which chips are the good performers and which ones are not.

There must be hundreds and hundreds of retailers and it seems far from plausible that they would be slotted in a hierarchy dependent on their chip specifications. What makes a lot more sense is that Wal-Mart does indeed sell televisions with the worst quality panels and chips because they sell a lot of bargain basement models.

Obviously big chain retailers like Cosco and Wal-Mart sell enough units that they have enough leverage with Samsung for them to make models specific to their stores but the only thing I know for sure with these models is that they have less features than the models they’re off-shooting from but at least it’s conceivable they could also have lower performing chips and panels from the standard models.

At the time when I was considering a Samsung 7 series I did not notice that Wal-Mart sold a 7 series model unique to them. Nope, just the same models that Best Buy and other retailers had at the same prices.

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post #1277 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 06:30 PM
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Why would Samsung even let their chip providers in on this scheme?

They wouldn't. This sounds like speculation that morphed over time into rumor.

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post #1278 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 06:40 PM
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What mysterious youtube video? The einstien clip?...
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post #1279 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 06:51 PM
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What mysterious youtube video? The einstien clip?...

Yeah, I guess that's what you could call it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrBRM8fAR78

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post #1280 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 06:58 PM
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60" E series is for sale http://store.vizio.com/eseries/e600ib3.html

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Yeah, I guess that's what you could call it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrBRM8fAR78

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Only thing I noticed about it was that it was posted a month ago. Any one seen it on broadcast TV?
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post #1282 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 07:00 PM
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60" E series is for sale http://store.vizio.com/eseries/e600ib3.html

Yeah, the 2014 60" E-Series has been on the Vizio site for a couple weeks now - we're all waiting to see when it shows up at Costco or Sam's Club...

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post #1283 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 07:02 PM
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Yeah, the 2014 60" E-Series has been on the Vizio site for a couple weeks now - we're all waiting to see when it shows up at Costco or Sam's Club...

-fafrd

On the site, yes. But only for sale in the last couple of hours. Prior to that it was listed as coming soon.

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post #1284 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 07:18 PM
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Is there a 60" M series page up yet? Sites bugging for me on my phone.

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post #1285 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 07:21 PM
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Yeah, the 2014 60" E-Series has been on the Vizio site for a couple weeks now - we're all waiting to see when it shows up at Costco or Sam's Club...

-fafrd

On the site, yes. But only for sale in the last couple of hours. Prior to that it was listed as coming soon.

I guess that is right - hopefully it means that the 60" E shows up in Costco and Sam's this week...

-fafrd
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post #1286 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 07:26 PM
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Is there a 60" M series page up yet? Sites bugging for me on my phone.

Nothing on the M-Series on Vizio's site other than 2013 'Razor' models...

There is also nothing up yet on the 65" or 70" 2014 E-Series panels (which most are expecting to reach the channels in advance of the first M Series panels).

'Credible' rumors are that the M Series will launch in May.

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post #1287 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 09:36 PM
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There have been special Costco packages with an extra letter or a different-but-close model number. Usually they throw in a cheap HDMI cable or something, but they could also be models with chipsets which didn't pass their tests as well as others.
That's right. Costco has done "modified" models or bundles, not quite the same as distributed elsewhere, some manufactured specifically for Costco. And they are identifiable by a different model number on the TV if the TV itself is not the same. The supposed scheme of shipping inferior product with identical model numbers, packaging, manuals, specifications would be consumer fraud, and in the proposed scheme, the manufacturer and retailer are both in cahoots. Now, if somebody finds they have different model numbers, sure, that could happen. That's why I was suspicious of the "e" suffix TVs showing up in one chain.

I'd like to talk to the guy who told Archer75 about this scheme. We could start a nice little class action lawsuit. But first I need to buy one of these inferior Samsung models from WalMart so I can be in the class.
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post #1288 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 09:49 PM
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I'm not sure about that. Manufacturers often use multiple sources of common parts so two devices with exactly the same model number might have different parts from different sources; memory chips and power supplies with the same specs, etc. Xbox 360 had multiple suppliers for components like fans and DVD drives, some of which were noisier than others.

Now same part from the same supplier just lower spec does sound a bit hinky, but I'm not sure that it's fraud.

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post #1289 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 10:37 PM
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I'm not sure about that. Manufacturers often use multiple sources of common parts so two devices with exactly the same model number might have different parts from different sources; memory chips and power supplies with the same specs, etc. Xbox 360 had multiple suppliers for components like fans and DVD drives, some of which were noisier than others.

Now same part from the same supplier just lower spec does sound a bit hinky, but I'm not sure that it's fraud.

It's not about where the component parts came from - it's about the specification of the product and assuring that whatever components that were used in the build are delivering performance to those specifications.

Those of you conspiracy theorists considering a class action lawsuit on this subject, I would greatly appreciate if you would establish a dedicated thread on that topic so that this thread can remain focused on the 2014 Vizio offerings...

-fafrd
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post #1290 of 5691 Old 02-25-2014, 10:37 PM
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So I'm here to inform you that, IMO, Samsung's QC has improved. smile.gif

Poll owners of Samsung's F8500, one of the highest regarded displays ever, and you'll find a very high level of satisfaction and QC issues that appear no higher than, say, Panasonic. The predominant issue would appear to be buzzing. However I attribute that less to QC and more to plasma's inherent issues with buzzing, coupled with the beefier power supply that helps mitigate ABL. Add to that the myriad of parameters that contribute to people either hearing or not hearing buzzing, and you really don't have a 'QC' issue IMO.

I was mostly referring to LCD..... I didn't mean to drag all of Samsung into this.
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You're probably correct in pointing out the inherent QC issues in edge lit LED designs, but even there I'm not aware of any more QC issues over the past year with Samsung than, say, Sony.

I may be wrong, but I honestly feel Samsung has significantly stepped up their game.

Sony -- at least for a while -- was building better edge-lit LCDs, with tighter tolerances. I can't say whether they still are because I don't even look at those anymore.

Good to know Samsung is improving.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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