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post #1531 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 08:31 AM
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In case anyone missed it, TigerDirect has some of the 2014 E Series sets:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8896708&CatId=4717
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post #1532 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ball View Post

Huh? Did you mean to quote me? I said the same things you said. I'm not expecting any advance notice from Vizio. Oh, well.

Well that was embarrassing. You're correct on all counts, my sincere apologies.frown.gif

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post #1533 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 02:17 PM
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Vizios going to lose some serious money not getting the p series launched at least by May. Researching all of the other majors they're 65" sets and lower should start to come out next month and in May. If the p series are really coming out in august idk if I want to wait that long. Atleast June wouldn't be terribly bad but august is a bit of a stretch, to atleast see how they actually compare against other 4k sets.
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post #1534 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post

Vizios going to lose some serious money not getting the p series launched at least by May. Researching all of the other majors they're 65" sets and lower should start to come out next month and in May. If the p series are really coming out in august idk if I want to wait that long. Atleast June wouldn't be terribly bad but august is a bit of a stretch, to atleast see how they actually compare against other 4k sets.

Agree on all counts. Rumor is that the P Series may make it into this years Value Electronics Flat Panel Shootout in late May / early June, so hopefully first production sets of the P Series are available by then and the launch is managed no long after...

The 65" Reference Series may have a chance to make it into the shootout as well, but that is probably much more of a long shot...

With Sharps rapid launch of 2014 Models and 'out-of-the-shoot' discounts of up to 30% on already aggressive MSRP for the Q+ line, as well as LGs aggressive price reductions of up to 50% on their 55" OLED, spring is shaping up to be an especially important time this year. Hopefully Vizio is aware of that is finds a way to accelerate their execution so that they are not the last brand to hit the showroom floors with their 2014 offerings this year.

Assuming the breaking news regarding LGs latest OLED price drop becomes widely known and generates significant buzz, I would not be the least bit surprised to see Vizio releasing some additional information on the 65" Reference Series soon (next 2-3 weeks). Otherwise I believe the continued silence on the 65" Reference Series is going to start to hurt them. A well-timed press-release which includes information regarding the model number and MSRP for the 65" Reference Series would go a long way towards making the emergence of that class-leading LED/LCD TV much more real than it is today.
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post #1535 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 03:32 PM
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so if i get a m701 at costco it will be right on time for return and get a 702 P series !!!
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post #1536 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post

Vizios going to lose some serious money not getting the p series launched at least by May. Researching all of the other majors they're 65" sets and lower should start to come out next month and in May. If the p series are really coming out in august idk if I want to wait that long. At least June wouldn't be terribly bad but august is a bit of a stretch, to at least see how they actually compare against other 4k sets.

Unlike the M series there is no money coming in on the P series so there's something to be said for leaving money on the table. Hence, I believe the P series will make it in time for the 2014 HDTV shootout.

But lets be serious here, none of us here know enough of Vizio's business plans to dictate to them what there business strategy should be. In terms of generating revenue the R series is almost irrelevant and it wouldn't surprise me if this series is a money loser for them. The purpose of this series is to showcase their technology and to put Vizio on the map as a premier television manufacturer. Whenever the R series hits the market it will generate buzz and there's also something to be said for who's last leaves the most lasting impression (unfortunately with technology being last doesn't last very long). I look at the R series as a foretelling of what features will migrate down to the P series in future model years. The workhorse and butter making models will be the E and M series.

Speaking of OLEDs, Vizio will eventually come out with their own panel, right? What letter of the alphabet will this sereis get (T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z)?

As for Sharp, thanks to fafrd, I have a more open mind on their 2014 products but I still think they'll finish near the bottom at the 2014 HDTV shootout. Not that I'm rooting for that to happen.

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post #1537 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 06:57 PM
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Vizios going to lose some serious money not getting the p series launched at least by May. Researching all of the other majors they're 65" sets and lower should start to come out next month and in May. If the p series are really coming out in august idk if I want to wait that long. At least June wouldn't be terribly bad but august is a bit of a stretch, to at least see how they actually compare against other 4k sets.

Unlike the M series there is no money coming in on the P series so there's something to be said for leaving money on the table. Hence, I believe the P series will make it in time for the 2014 HDTV shootout.

But lets be serious here, none of us here know enough of Vizio's business plans to dictate to them what there business strategy should be. In terms of generating revenue the R series is almost irrelevant and it wouldn't surprise me if this series is a money loser for them. The purpose of this series is to showcase their technology and to put Vizio on the map as a premier television manufacturer. Whenever the R series hits the market it will generate buzz and there's also something to be said for who's last leaves the most lasting impression (unfortunately with technology being last doesn't last very long). I look at the R series as a foretelling of what features will migrate down to the P series in future model years. The workhorse and butter making models will be the E and M series.

Speaking of OLEDs, Vizio will eventually come out with their own panel, right? What letter of the alphabet will this sereis get (T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z)?

As for Sharp, thanks to fafrd, I have a more open mind on their 2014 products but I still think they'll finish near the bottom at the 2014 HDTV shootout. Not that I'm rooting for that to happen.

Of course we'll need to wait to see what level of performance the P-Series can deliver with it's 64-zone FALD, but if is anything like the current Sony X900a or Samsung F9000, I suspect Vizio may sell a large number of P-Series TVs this year (in addition to the E and M). So I guess I am hoping / expecting the P-Series to be a part of Vizio's 'workhorse and butter-making' this year biggrin.gif

And you are right - a big part of the rationale for the R Series is probably to preview technologies that will trickle down to the P Series over the next year or two. If you consider the Reference series as an investment in advertising, marketing, and brand image, Vizio can afford to sell the 65" R Series for almost any price they want.

As a floor, there is the P-Series, and I can not see Vizio selling the R for less than 150% of the P + $300 for the integrated 5.1 soundbar (so my prediction is a $3600 minimum price for the 65" R Series).

Another interesting datapoint as far as a floor is the Sharp UQ line - I can't see the Vizio Reference Series being priced below the 65" Sharp UQ. The 70" UQ has an MSRP of $4000 but is already being discounted to $3300...

As far as a price ceiling, there are a couple of interesting recent developments. Now that LG has apparently dropped the price of their 55" OLED to $4600, I think that price represents a ceiling for the 65" Vizio R. In addition, Panasonic has announced pricing on their 55" 4K flagship, the AX800, at $4500. The 65" AX800 will no doubt be more, but I see the price of the 55" AX800 representing another ceiling for the 65" R Series. And then there is Sharps 4K flagship, the 70" UD1U which has an MSRP of $7000 but is already being discounted to $4000 on Amazon. With all of these other 'flagship' TV in the $4000-4600 price range and at sizes bracketing the 65" R Series, I don't see how Vizio could hope to price the R Series much above $4000 or certainly $4600 and hope to find much success in terms of sales. So I predict an upper limit of $4600 for the price of the 65" Vizio reference Series and have a strong suspicion that they will end up pricing it at $4099 or even $3999...
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post #1538 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 07:18 PM
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I hope you guys are right. I have been keeping a open mind about other sets just in case these take to long. I'm unsure about the sharps though I saw the ud1u displaying 1080p and wasn't impressed compared to the others. Once they're out and reviewed hopefully the decision will be easy. There's so many options this year lol
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post #1539 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Of course we'll need to wait to see what level of performance the P-Series can deliver with it's 64-zone FALD, but if is anything like the current Sony X900a or Samsung F9000, I suspect Vizio may sell a large number of P-Series TVs this year (in addition to the E and M). So I guess I am hoping / expecting the P-Series to be a part of Vizio's 'workhorse and butter-making' this year biggrin.gif

And you are right - a big part of the rationale for the R Series is probably to preview technologies that will trickle down to the P Series over the next year or two. If you consider the Reference series as an investment in advertising, marketing, and brand image, Vizio can afford to sell the 65" R Series for almost any price they want.

As a floor, there is the P-Series, and I can not see Vizio selling the R for less than 150% of the P + $300 for the integrated 5.1 soundbar (so my prediction is a $3600 minimum price for the 65" R Series).

Another interesting datapoint as far as a floor is the Sharp UQ line - I can't see the Vizio Reference Series being priced below the 65" Sharp UQ. The 70" UQ has an MSRP of $4000 but is already being discounted to $3300...

As far as a price ceiling, there are a couple of interesting recent developments. Now that LG has apparently dropped the price of their 55" OLED to $4600, I think that price represents a ceiling for the 65" Vizio R. In addition, Panasonic has announced pricing on their 55" 4K flagship, the AX800, at $4500. The 65" AX800 will no doubt be more, but I see the price of the 55" AX800 representing another ceiling for the 65" R Series. And then there is Sharps 4K flagship, the 70" UD1U which has an MSRP of $7000 but is already being discounted to $4000 on Amazon. With all of these other 'flagship' TV in the $4000-4600 price range and at sizes bracketing the 65" R Series, I don't see how Vizio could hope to price the R Series much above $4000 or certainly $4600 and hope to find much success in terms of sales. So I predict an upper limit of $4600 for the price of the 65" Vizio reference Series and have a strong suspicion that they will end up pricing it at $4099 or even $3999...

Good point about the P series, though some of their sales will come from folks who would otherwise buy the M series it should increase their overall market share. I'm just saying the lion's share of TV sales are below the P series' segment. But within the P series segment I predict Vizio will be a formidable contender.

Kudos to LG for the pricing of their OLEDs, they're either trying to establish market share at any cost or they figured out how to manufacture theses panels much more efficiently and way head of predictions . It appears they're getting the best of Samsung.

I have to say you're tireless for all the information you provide to us. Thanks!
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post #1540 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 08:47 PM
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P and R series are nothing but vaporwares....tongue.gif

Vizio released full-array model couple years ago. How did that go? wink.gif

But seriously, it will be awesome if Vizio actually makes it through. biggrin.gif

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post #1541 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 10:22 PM
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Well that was embarrassing. You're correct on all counts, my sincere apologies.frown.gif
Oh, no, that's not embarrassing. Embarrassing was the time I somehow put a link to a porno site in a reply to an entire email message board.
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post #1542 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 10:31 PM
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P and R series are nothing but vaporwares....tongue.gif

Vizio released full-array model couple years ago. How did that go? wink.gif

But seriously, it will be awesome if Vizio actually makes it through. biggrin.gif

Their full array models were excellent, and highly regarded by many consumers and pro reviewers. The only drawback I witnessed were the blooming issues, which all companies models suffered from. Well the sharp elite didn't but the price difference was huge. I had 2 of the previous models and other than off angle blooming in certain movies, I was very impressed with every aspect of them. The only problem is that I may be getting my hopes up for the P series. Those have what? 64 zones? My 474 had 160 and still had issues. Fingers crossed that this mysterious "pixel tuning" works miracles cool.gif
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post #1543 of 5936 Old 03-08-2014, 10:51 PM
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Good point about the P series, though some of their sales will come from folks who would otherwise buy the M series it should increase their overall market share. I'm just saying the lion's share of TV sales are below the P series' segment. But within the P series segment I predict Vizio will be a formidable contender.

Kudos to LG for the pricing of their OLEDs, they're either trying to establish market share at any cost or they figured out how to manufacture theses panels much more efficiently and way head of predictions . It appears they're getting the best of Samsung.

I have to say you're tireless for all the information you provide to us. Thanks!

Here we go....

Kateeva introduce Yieldjet to print cost effective flexible-large OLED-Tv Displays
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post #1544 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 01:02 PM
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Good point about the P series, though some of their sales will come from folks who would otherwise buy the M series it should increase their overall market share. I'm just saying the lion's share of TV sales are below the P series' segment. But within the P series segment I predict Vizio will be a formidable contender.

Kudos to LG for the pricing of their OLEDs, they're either trying to establish market share at any cost or they figured out how to manufacture theses panels much more efficiently and way head of predictions . It appears they're getting the best of Samsung.

I have to say you're tireless for all the information you provide to us. Thanks!

Here we go....

Kateeva introduce Yieldjet to print cost effective flexible-large OLED-Tv Displays

When new OLED manufacturing technologies like this YieldJet printing of Kateeva become fully industrialized and widely adopted, it is hard to see any display being lower cost to manufacture than OLED and it will no doubt rule the roost. That is likely to take another 5-10 years and so the question is, what are we going to do in the meantime?

Those who have deep pockets and want the best display technology no matter what the cost can but an OLED today.

For the rest of us that look at price / performance and are looking for the best display we can purchase for a set (and limited) budget, the 2014 crop of Vizio offerings including the 65" Reference Series are likely to be a better value proposition than anything else to cross this pre-mass-market-OLED chasm (assuming Vizio actually delivers - a big assumption, I agree...).

Also, the Kateeva technology appears to be suited to Samsung's RGB OLED but not to LGs RGBW OLED technology, so the momentum LG is trying to develop this year with their OLED products is not likely to be benefitting from the future cost reductions this Kateeva technology may represent...
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Their full array models were excellent, and highly regarded by many consumers and pro reviewers. The only drawback I witnessed were the blooming issues, which all companies models suffered from. Well the sharp elite didn't but the price difference was huge. I had 2 of the previous models and other than off angle blooming in certain movies, I was very impressed with every aspect of them. The only problem is that I may be getting my hopes up for the P series. Those have what? 64 zones? My 474 had 160 and still had issues. Fingers crossed that this mysterious "pixel tuning" works miracles cool.gif

Pixel tuning is suppose to bring brightness back at the pixel level to a zone that has been dimmed. An example that's commonly used is a star.

The reviewer from reviewed.com reported little blooming on the E480i-B2 and noted how black levels and uniformity kept their integrity even at the edges. So this bodes well for the M and P series.

http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/vizio-e480i-b2-led-tv-review/the-science
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post #1546 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 01:22 PM
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Anyone know when the M series is supposed to be released?

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post #1547 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

When new OLED manufacturing technologies like this YieldJet printing of Kateeva become fully industrialized and widely adopted, it is hard to see any display being lower cost to manufacture than OLED and it will no doubt rule the roost. That is likely to take another 5-10 years and so the question is, what are we going to do in the meantime?

Those who have deep pockets and want the best display technology no matter what the cost can but an OLED today.

For the rest of us that look at price / performance and are looking for the best display we can purchase for a set (and limited) budget, the 2014 crop of Vizio offerings including the 65" Reference Series are likely to be a better value proposition than anything else to cross this pre-mass-market-OLED chasm (assuming Vizio actually delivers - a big assumption, I agree...).

Also, the Kateeva technology appears to be suited to Samsung's RGB OLED but not to LGs RGBW OLED technology, so the momentum LG is trying to develop this year with their OLED products is not likely to be benefitting from the future cost reductions this Kateeva technology may represent...
The OLED will take off in less then 5 years .. and that doesn't put LCD on the dust with FALD ( top line ) with some other feature and enhancements that close to recent OLED PQ
until they dig and craft the OLED tech properly and comes the real deal .. we will see how good it can pull out vs old school !!
And that not happening now ( not before 3-6 years ) but its already starting .

The rest i totally agree .... we wont go wrong with R series ( not over priced i hope ) Iam waiting the P series >
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Anyone know when the M series is supposed to be released?

No, but we're holding out for May. 

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I wont be surprised if the OLED will cost less then what we have of top line LCD now ( In 5 years ) LCD will vanish eek.gif
With the future running fast the tech getting easier and cheaper to invest ...
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post #1550 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

When new OLED manufacturing technologies like this YieldJet printing of Kateeva become fully industrialized and widely adopted, it is hard to see any display being lower cost to manufacture than OLED and it will no doubt rule the roost. That is likely to take another 5-10 years and so the question is, what are we going to do in the meantime?

Those who have deep pockets and want the best display technology no matter what the cost can but an OLED today.

For the rest of us that look at price / performance and are looking for the best display we can purchase for a set (and limited) budget, the 2014 crop of Vizio offerings including the 65" Reference Series are likely to be a better value proposition than anything else to cross this pre-mass-market-OLED chasm (assuming Vizio actually delivers - a big assumption, I agree...).

Also, the Kateeva technology appears to be suited to Samsung's RGB OLED but not to LGs RGBW OLED technology, so the momentum LG is trying to develop this year with their OLED products is not likely to be benefitting from the future cost reductions this Kateeva technology may represent...

I don't know, the $4600 you reported for an LG OLED doesn't sound all that outrageous. And keep in mind Samsung will supposedly sell a cheaper version of their F8500 panel this summer, probably the last standing high end plasma.

Here's my prediction on how the panel technologies will fare at the 2014 HDTV shootout:

OLED (if any are entered)
Plasma (either the F8500 or H7000)
LCD (FALD)
LCD (edge-lit)

There will probably be accusations of bias if the plasma does indeed finish ahead of all the LCD panels but that's nothing new. I can see the R series overtaking the Samsung plasma but I don't see that TV as an entrant. I don't need the P series to be as a good as the plasma, just want it to score a lot closer than the F8000 and Sony XBR-X900A did last year. If that happens I will likely replace my current plasma with a 70' P series. This shootout is determining the best TV strictly in terms of PQ, not necessarily the best TV especially based upon one's own personal tastes or/and viewing habits.

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post #1551 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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The OLED will take off in less then 5 years .. and that doesn't put LCD on the dust with FALD ( top line ) with some other feature and enhancements that close to recent OLED PQ
until they dig and craft the OLED tech properly and comes the real deal .. we will see how good it can pull out vs old school !!
And that not happening now ( not before 3-6 years ) but its already starting .

The rest i totally agree .... we wont go wrong with R series ( not over priced i hope ) Iam waiting the P series >

I believe we are more or less in agreement from what you have written here. You have written 'less than 5 years' and 'not before 3-6 years' where I view that as a most optimistic outlook and believe a more realistic timeframe would be another 1-3 years on top of those timeframes, but other than that I think we see things the same way based n what you have written here. If nothing else, the competition coming from OLED is putting pressure on the LED/LCD makers to improve their picture quality significantly without adding cost - a good thing for all consumers...

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I wont be surprised if the OLED will cost less then what we have of top line LCD now ( In 5 years ) LCD will vanish eek.gif

For sure in the future OLED will cost less than top line LCD now - until the Vizio panels arrive and deliver the goods, top-line LED/LCD like the Sony 950B cost $6-8K for 65"

The point is that 'in the future' when OLED costs less than $6-8K for 65", a 65" Sony 950B-class LED/LCD is going to cost much less, probably below $2K. As long as new technologies are still being introduced into LED/LCD, we are still a long way from the asymptotic pricing...
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With the future running fast the tech getting easier and cheaper to invest ...

I think we may have a subtle difference in our views on this aspect.

Yes, the future is running faster and new technologies are being introduced and industrialized more quickly and cheaply. But there is a huge difference in the investment levels required to introduce new technologies into an existing manufacturing line versus the investments needed to establish a new fab., and that is where LED/LCD has a huge advantage over OLED. LED/LCD is fully industrialized and is already manufacturing with full economies of scale, so introducing improvements like faster panel refresh, reduced motion blur through scanning backlights, wider color gamut through use of better phosphors, higher resolution like 4K, larger panel sizes, improved contrast through FALD and pixel-level compensation, etc... are all very small incremental investments on a large manufacturing investment which has already been made.

OLED has yet to make the significant investments in mainstream-volume manufacturing plants, and that is where the significant $$$$$s come in. It is unlikely that OLED is going to invest in those mass-volume manufacturing plants until there is high confidence that there will be relatively immediate demand for the volume of OLED products that will result. So the products have to be reliable, proven, fantastic, and very inexpensive. There is not enough demand at the high-end of the market to justify the mass-market manufacturing plants that will be needed to bring the economies of scale required to get OLED manufacturing costs down to the theoretical minimum...

It's a chicken-and-egg problem and a classic challenge of manufacturing and industrialization of an innovative and disruptive technology in the face of an entrenched and evolving competing technology.

If everything goes swimmingly for OLED, it's not impossible for them to reach the top of the mountain in 'less than 5 years' but my opinion is that it could easily take much longer than that...
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post #1552 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 02:03 PM
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Pixel tuning is suppose to bring brightness back at the pixel level to a zone that has been dimmed. An example that's commonly used is a star.

The reviewer from reviewed.com reported little blooming on the E480i-B2 and noted how black levels and uniformity kept their integrity even at the edges. So this bodes well for the M and P series.

http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/vizio-e480i-b2-led-tv-review/the-science

Unless they tested the many movies that I and others noted in past threads that suffered from blooming, their critique about how the E models and how they handle blooming, means very little to me. If and when I get my hands on a M or P series, I'll be testing the movies(I'll have to find my list) that made me return past FALD sets. And if it isn't any better, back they go.

Is your description of pixel tuning an official one from Vizio? I am not familiar with any such comment coming from a rep. It makes sense and sounds good, if that's what it does. I'd like to see an explanation in a document, could you kindly point me in the right direction to such a thing? Thanks
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Unless they tested the many movies that I and others noted in past threads that suffered from blooming, their critique about how the E models and how they handle blooming, means very little to me. If and when I get my hands on a M or P series, I'll be testing the movies(I'll have to find my list) that made me return past FALD sets. And if it isn't any better, back they go.

Is your description of pixel tuning an official one from Vizio? I am not familiar with any such comment coming from a rep. It makes sense and sounds good, if that's what it does. I'd like to see an explanation in a document, could you kindly point me in the right direction to such a thing? Thanks

I don't have an official document but I have this video. I think it's worthwhile to watch the whole video despite Carlo's clapping but he talks about pixel tuning at the 2:20 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJvyhYWf3s

Also, I'll e-mail Lee Neikirk @ Reviewed.com to get more clarification on the lack of blooming he cited.

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post #1554 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 02:34 PM
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When new OLED manufacturing technologies like this YieldJet printing of Kateeva become fully industrialized and widely adopted, it is hard to see any display being lower cost to manufacture than OLED and it will no doubt rule the roost. That is likely to take another 5-10 years and so the question is, what are we going to do in the meantime?

Those who have deep pockets and want the best display technology no matter what the cost can but an OLED today.

For the rest of us that look at price / performance and are looking for the best display we can purchase for a set (and limited) budget, the 2014 crop of Vizio offerings including the 65" Reference Series are likely to be a better value proposition than anything else to cross this pre-mass-market-OLED chasm (assuming Vizio actually delivers - a big assumption, I agree...).

Also, the Kateeva technology appears to be suited to Samsung's RGB OLED but not to LGs RGBW OLED technology, so the momentum LG is trying to develop this year with their OLED products is not likely to be benefitting from the future cost reductions this Kateeva technology may represent...

I don't know, the $4600 you reported for an LG OLED doesn't sound all that outrageous. And keep in mind Samsung will supposedly sell a cheaper version of their F8500 panel this summer, probably the last standing high end plasma.

Here's my prediction on how the panel technologies will fare at the 2014 HDTV shootout:

OLED (if any are entered)
Plasma (either the F8500 or H7000)
LCD (FALD)
LCD (edge-lit)

There will probably be accusations of bias if the plasma does indeed finish ahead of all the LCD panels but that's nothing new. I can see the R series overtaking the Samsung plasma but I don't see that TV as an entrant. I don't need the P series to be as a good as the plasma, just want it to score a lot closer than the F8000 and Sony XBR-X900A did last year. If that happens I will likely replace my current plasma with a 70' P series. This shootout is determining the best TV strictly in terms of PQ, not necessarily the best TV especially based upon one's own personal tastes or/and viewing habits.

It's probably about the third time that I have commented that you and I have very similar views, objectives, and plans, venus933 biggrin.gif

I would be shocked if this year's VE shootout does not result in the ranking you have sketched (in fact, I would be concerned of bias if it did not work out that way). The 'winner' is of much less importance to me than the specific scoring matrix and the relative performance of the different display technologies in the different areas compared, including contrast, dark level, color accuracy, picture quality... This gives me an idea of how MUCH dark level am I giving up by settling for a FALD LED/LCD versus a plasma, for example.

And yes, $4600 for the LG OLED is fantastic (and would have been unimaginable a year ago), until you step back and realize that we are talking about a 55" 1080p panel. So if that is the size and resolution panel you are looking for, that product will no doubt give you the best picture quality possible for that price. On the other hand, you could spend $1400 on a 55" P-Series from Vizio, less than a third of the price of the LG OLED. Or you could step up to a 70" P Series for $2600 - 60% more viewing area for 57% of the cost... Or if you only really care about 1080p and don't want higher resolution, you could get a 55" M-Series from Vizio for $900 - less than 20% of the price of the LG - or step up to a 70" 1080p M for $1900 - 60% more viewing area for only 41% of the LG. Or go large and get the 80" M Series for $3300 - more than double the viewing area for 72% of the cost of the LG...

So adding in a swag at the price we expect for the different 'winners' you listed, here is how I see it at the moment:

OLED (if any are entered) - LG 55" 1080p for $4600
Plasma (either the F8500 or H7000) - 64" Samsung F8500 1080p for $3100
LCD (FALD) - Vizio P Series 65" 4K for $2200 or Vizio M Series 65" 1080p for $1500
LCD (edge-lit) - Sharp 60" UQ 1080p+/4K- for $2200 (or 70" UQ for $3300)

If we ran a poll on the forum asking participants to rank these 4 offerings in terms of best price/performance, I'm pretty sure the LG OLED would not come out on top (though of course, the shootout results would need to be completed so that the incremental loss of picture quality versus the OLED standard-bearer could be understood).
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when and where(website) is this hdtv shootout gonna happen?
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I don't have an official document but I have this video. I think it's worthwhile to watch the whole video despite Carlo's clapping but he talks about pixel tuning at the 2:20 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJvyhYWf3s

Also, I'll e-mail Lee Neikirk @ Reviewed.com to get more clarification on the lack of blooming he cited.

Oh ok, I've seen that b4. If it works, it'll change the FALD game in a huge way. Ask Lee to pop in the movie "The Strangers" and watch any scene where the intruders are wearing white masks. If a tv can handle that without blooming, I'll buy.
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I believe we are more or less in agreement from what you have written here. You have written 'less than 5 years' and 'not before 3-6 years' where I view that as a most optimistic outlook and believe a more realistic timeframe would be another 1-3 years on top of those timeframes, but other than that I think we see things the same way based n what you have written here. If nothing else, the competition coming from OLED is putting pressure on the LED/LCD makers to improve their picture quality significantly without adding cost - a good thing for all consumers...
For sure in the future OLED will cost less than top line LCD now - until the Vizio panels arrive and deliver the goods, top-line LED/LCD like the Sony 950B cost $6-8K for 65"

The point is that 'in the future' when OLED costs less than $6-8K for 65", a 65" Sony 950B-class LED/LCD is going to cost much less, probably below $2K. As long as new technologies are still being introduced into LED/LCD, we are still a long way from the asymptotic pricing...
I think we may have a subtle difference in our views on this aspect.

Yes, the future is running faster and new technologies are being introduced and industrialized more quickly and cheaply. But there is a huge difference in the investment levels required to introduce new technologies into an existing manufacturing line versus the investments needed to establish a new fab., and that is where LED/LCD has a huge advantage over OLED. LED/LCD is fully industrialized and is already manufacturing with full economies of scale, so introducing improvements like faster panel refresh, reduced motion blur through scanning backlights, wider color gamut through use of better phosphors, higher resolution like 4K, larger panel sizes, improved contrast through FALD and pixel-level compensation, etc... are all very small incremental investments on a large manufacturing investment which has already been made.

OLED has yet to make the significant investments in mainstream-volume manufacturing plants, and that is where the significant $$$$$s come in. It is unlikely that OLED is going to invest in those mass-volume manufacturing plants until there is high confidence that there will be relatively immediate demand for the volume of OLED products that will result. So the products have to be reliable, proven, fantastic, and very inexpensive. There is not enough demand at the high-end of the market to justify the mass-market manufacturing plants that will be needed to bring the economies of scale required to get OLED manufacturing costs down to the theoretical minimum...

It's a chicken-and-egg problem and a classic challenge of manufacturing and industrialization of an innovative and disruptive technology in the face of an entrenched and evolving competing technology.

If everything goes swimmingly for OLED, it's not impossible for them to reach the top of the mountain in 'less than 5 years' but my opinion is that it could easily take much longer than that...

Thanks alot fafrd .. i was referring to the 3D printing tech adapting manufacturing panels ( am not expert my self )

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelkanellos/2014/01/03/is-oled-dead-heres-why-the-answer-is-no/
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when and where(website) is this hdtv shootout gonna happen?

http://www.*********************/ (in case you cannot follow this link, go to google and search for 'value electronics' :-)

Also you might want to have a look at this thread about the 2014 VE Shootout here on AVS Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519633/value-electronics-10th-annual-display-shoot-out
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post #1559 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 04:37 PM
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I believe we are more or less in agreement from what you have written here. You have written 'less than 5 years' and 'not before 3-6 years' where I view that as a most optimistic outlook and believe a more realistic timeframe would be another 1-3 years on top of those timeframes, but other than that I think we see things the same way based n what you have written here. If nothing else, the competition coming from OLED is putting pressure on the LED/LCD makers to improve their picture quality significantly without adding cost - a good thing for all consumers...
For sure in the future OLED will cost less than top line LCD now - until the Vizio panels arrive and deliver the goods, top-line LED/LCD like the Sony 950B cost $6-8K for 65"

The point is that 'in the future' when OLED costs less than $6-8K for 65", a 65" Sony 950B-class LED/LCD is going to cost much less, probably below $2K. As long as new technologies are still being introduced into LED/LCD, we are still a long way from the asymptotic pricing...
I think we may have a subtle difference in our views on this aspect.

Yes, the future is running faster and new technologies are being introduced and industrialized more quickly and cheaply. But there is a huge difference in the investment levels required to introduce new technologies into an existing manufacturing line versus the investments needed to establish a new fab., and that is where LED/LCD has a huge advantage over OLED. LED/LCD is fully industrialized and is already manufacturing with full economies of scale, so introducing improvements like faster panel refresh, reduced motion blur through scanning backlights, wider color gamut through use of better phosphors, higher resolution like 4K, larger panel sizes, improved contrast through FALD and pixel-level compensation, etc... are all very small incremental investments on a large manufacturing investment which has already been made.

OLED has yet to make the significant investments in mainstream-volume manufacturing plants, and that is where the significant $$$$$s come in. It is unlikely that OLED is going to invest in those mass-volume manufacturing plants until there is high confidence that there will be relatively immediate demand for the volume of OLED products that will result. So the products have to be reliable, proven, fantastic, and very inexpensive. There is not enough demand at the high-end of the market to justify the mass-market manufacturing plants that will be needed to bring the economies of scale required to get OLED manufacturing costs down to the theoretical minimum...

It's a chicken-and-egg problem and a classic challenge of manufacturing and industrialization of an innovative and disruptive technology in the face of an entrenched and evolving competing technology.

If everything goes swimmingly for OLED, it's not impossible for them to reach the top of the mountain in 'less than 5 years' but my opinion is that it could easily take much longer than that...

Thanks alot fafrd .. i was referring to the 3D printing tech adapting manufacturing panels ( am not expert my self )

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelkanellos/2014/01/03/is-oled-dead-heres-why-the-answer-is-no/

Thanks for the link - interesting article (that more or less supports the views I sketched in my post quoted above). I found this statement interesting:

"Kateeva in a few months will ship its first commercial demonstration plant to a large manufacturer in a few weeks with more going to other manufacturers by the end of the year. By 2015, expect to see 5- to 10-inch tablets made with Kateeva-made OLED screens by 2015, he added."

So at least that Kateeva next-generation printing technology appears that it will only be used to make phone and tablet displays next year (in the best case). In addition, the earlier link indicated that this printing technology can be used for Samsung RGB OLEDs but not LG RGBW OLEDs, so the following statement regarding Samsung's possible plan to focus more on LCD and less on OLED going forward may be an issue:

"Jed Dorsheimer of Canaccord Adams recently wrote that there are indications that Samsung will shift from OLEDs to LCDs for its high-end phones. (Dorsheimer also noted that The European Patent Office invalidated a fundamental patent owned by Universal Display, so if OLEDs do bounce back one of the pioneers of the technology may not benefit as much as they had hoped.)"

The Key point I was trying to make in my post is echoed in this quote from the Forbes article:

“You’d think the weight and energy would say yes, but again, does anyone really want to switch from LCD?,” Dorsheimer wrote in an email. “Due to the smaller screen sizes OLED material deposition techniques and yields are improving resulting in costs that are only marginally higher than LCD. Over time this may bleed into larger form factors.”
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post #1560 of 5936 Old 03-09-2014, 08:44 PM
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Thanks for the link - interesting article (that more or less supports the views I sketched in my post quoted above). I found this statement interesting:

"Kateeva in a few months will ship its first commercial demonstration plant to a large manufacturer in a few weeks with more going to other manufacturers by the end of the year. By 2015, expect to see 5- to 10-inch tablets made with Kateeva-made OLED screens by 2015, he added."

So at least that Kateeva next-generation printing technology appears that it will only be used to make phone and tablet displays next year (in the best case). In addition, the earlier link indicated that this printing technology can be used for Samsung RGB OLEDs but not LG RGBW OLEDs, so the following statement regarding Samsung's possible plan to focus more on LCD and less on OLED going forward may be an issue:

"Jed Dorsheimer of Canaccord Adams recently wrote that there are indications that Samsung will shift from OLEDs to LCDs for its high-end phones. (Dorsheimer also noted that The European Patent Office invalidated a fundamental patent owned by Universal Display, so if OLEDs do bounce back one of the pioneers of the technology may not benefit as much as they had hoped.)"

The Key point I was trying to make in my post is echoed in this quote from the Forbes article:

“You’d think the weight and energy would say yes, but again, does anyone really want to switch from LCD?,” Dorsheimer wrote in an email. “Due to the smaller screen sizes OLED material deposition techniques and yields are improving resulting in costs that are only marginally higher than LCD. Over time this may bleed into larger form factors.”

I always enjoy reading your posts with thoughts and knowledge shining the forum smile.gif
We don't know what the future holds for us and come up and changes the way we think ..
Lets wait and see.....

THANKS
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