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post #2341 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 06:56 PM
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Yes, the Vizio M Series is based on a panel with a 120Hz native refresh that requires frame interpolation to create a 120fps video stream from a 60fps video source like OTA broadcast sports.

Ok, that sentence worries me a bit. Frame interpolation is what creates the "soap opera effect", right? Because the TV is creating new frames halfway in between the frames from the source, and that process won't be perfect. I assume/hope the TV would still have the option to disable that frame interpolation? Would it just take each frame in a 60 fps source and display it twice in a row for 1/120th of a second each?

Yes, you will generally have the option to disable frame interpolation (or sometimes have a range of setting for the amount of frame interpolation you want from 24fps film sources, for example, which can interpolate up to 4 additional frames between each 24fps source frames for the smoothest motion at 120fps), thought the effect of this will be to increase pixel persistence and motion blur.
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post #2342 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 07:00 PM
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Or Black Frames? Is there that much customization within the Frame Interpolation system from Vizio?

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post #2343 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 07:23 PM
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Another quick question. Do these new 2014 M Series have Auto Sound Leveling like last years models. I REALLY like this feature available to be turned on/off as Im hard of hearing.

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post #2344 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 09:36 PM
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Another quick question. Do these new 2014 M Series have Auto Sound Leveling like last years models. I REALLY like this feature available to be turned on/off as Im hard of hearing.

Yes, per the user manuals, they do:

"Volume Leveling - Volume leveling uses DTS TruVolume™ to maintain consistent volume levels during transitions between program content, AV formats, and input sources. Select On or Off. In a few cases, volume leveling may artificially suppress volume increases, making it difficult to hear dialog or flattening sudden noises. If this occurs, turn volume leveling off."
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post #2345 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 10:00 PM
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Hd guru article looking at these early price drops looks like prices are going to be pretty competitive this year. http://hdguru.com/tv-makers-offer-the-first-hot-deals-on-2014-ultra-high-def-and-hdtv-models/
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post #2346 of 5781 Old 04-27-2014, 10:09 PM
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Make of this what you will, but Amazon once again shows the 2014 M422i as "Shipping in 1 to 3 weeks" instead of "Temporarily out of stock". If you add it to your cart, it shows an estimated shipping date between May 12 and May 19.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JJNA10I/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
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post #2347 of 5781 Old 04-28-2014, 12:08 PM
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Make of this what you will, but Amazon once again shows the 2014 M422i as "Shipping in 1 to 3 weeks" instead of "Temporarily out of stock". If you add it to your cart, it shows an estimated shipping date between May 12 and May 19.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JJNA10I/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Never mind, it's already back to "Temporarily out of stock"!! C'mon Amazon, make up your mind!! tongue.gif
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post #2348 of 5781 Old 04-28-2014, 02:18 PM
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Never mind, it's already back to "Temporarily out of stock"!! C'mon Amazon, make up your mind!! tongue.gif

They just like to tease.
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post #2349 of 5781 Old 04-28-2014, 11:27 PM
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Or Black Frames? Is there that much customization within the Frame Interpolation system from Vizio?

I would hope there will be a tapered option across both. Not only for personal taste, but also for light reasons.

The way I understand it, we will have interpolation up to 240hz, as many 1080p panels have reached a point where they have a 4ms response time...or at least very, very close to it. It would make sense to take advantage of that extra ability even if not rated for 240hz. A 2x bfi (3x refresh rate) gives you a motion number of 720. The aim is undoubtedly to have a reasonably-priced panel that through whatever (cost-effective) means cross the perceived motion rate of 600hz. This could be done through at least a 5ms response time (200hz displayed image) and 2x bfi (for 3x that rate). Although the different parts of the equation may be unsuitable for everyone, that is besides the point: it should get the job done and look good to most people, especially considering the price range.

Breaking down the scheme past interpolation/soe to the bfi/bls portion of the equation, it's also why the M will likely be marketed around 450-500nits max brightness. You want at least 120-140 (calibrated and real) nits in a dark/lit room. Active backlight scanning of around 3x rate (2x bfi) would cut the real max number to around a third, which appeases that minimum. While Vizio has passively mentioned over-driving the leds when doing bfi, I would hope there is leeway when turned down or off to crank up the brightness (to a point). When panels are rated at 350 nits (for a typical 1080p) and up to 450 (for the 65 uhd auo panel everyone seems so excited about) for optimal contrast, you are going to need to make decisions on what is important. I imagine Vizio will give you the choice (Unlike say Toshiba, which at least appears focused on absolute picture/black levels and hence keeping brightness closer to the spec), although again I think their intention is using what's available/cheap (at least 5ms response rate panel for at least 200hz displayed interpolation at 3x rate, resulting in 1/3 max brightness totaling at least 140 nits).

Similarly, this is why the P series will probably be rated at least 600, but perhaps up to 700 nits (just like Toshiba). While there are not many 240hz (4ms response time) UHD panels, many are rated around 5.5-6.5ms (150-180hz). It makes sense to have the option of doing internal interpolation up to 240mhz versus not having it (especially if scaling a lower resolution), but it also will not see the greatest benefit as it's physically incapable at it's native resolution (and I wonder if it actually could be a potential source of flicker when used with bfi). They (probably) make up for lower response time with an extra black frame and brighter backlight to supplement it, hence the p series will likely be marketed as 'up to a motion number of 960'; Up to 120hz real input (not in quality uhd obviously given hdmi 2.0, but good quality 1080p), using interpolation up to 240hz (but again, probably not really displayed at 240hz in uhd, but conceivably 1080p), with 3x frame insertion (4x rate) and 1/4 brightness. That would mean their goal was using at least a 6.666ms panel (150hz displayed interpolation or slightly higher based on source) at 4x rate and 1/4 brightness for uhd, which is exactly what available panels are (mostly 6.5ms). in reality it probably won't be a 'ton' better motion performance than a ~4ms 1080p panel (like essentially all Sharp/Foxcon panels these days) with interpolation and 2x bfi (at least to some people), but it too, similarly but differently, should get the job done if that's what you're after...

...or at least something to that effect. That is my hypothesis, anyway, and I think it seems logical.

That alllll said, I only 'kind of' care about all this, as it all will probably be hugely detrimental to input lag and conceivably pq. I am still simply more excited about cheap, big, uhd/120hz input/hdmi 2.0 with direct back-light, but I do find the fact they are trying to make the absolute best of the situation (using affordable 120hz panels that can actually do better than that even if not 240hz, better and brighter available back-lighting/tricks to have those motion options available) incredibly appealing. When a company takes all the 'good-enough'/not hugely expensive tech and combines it to make something not only versatile, but that should indeed be a good-enough experience for a lot of people (for a reasonable price), it shows their engineering focus is in the right place for their market. That only bodes well for all future products.

TLDR: What they are doing with their product lines is smart. With how they are going about implementing features, I can't imagine they would cut off the ability to customize it to some extent. While what they are doing is absolutely and most certainly targeted, the price (compared to other displays) means they will end up being used beyond that intention. I would certainly hope they would be prepared for that reality, and things like 120hz input point distinctly in that direction.

editted for grammar, terminology clarification, and to add a bunch of rambling crap (apologies). tongue.gif
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post #2350 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 07:28 AM
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I'm pretty sure I saw the 47inch and 40 inch of the New M series at my costco.  They had the new design on the screen for the box and there was no mention of any 3d on the box either.  Go check out your local costcos.  They seem to be coming in.  I'm still waiting for the 65 inch version

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post #2351 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 08:51 AM
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Or Black Frames? Is there that much customization within the Frame Interpolation system from Vizio?

I would hope there will be a tapered option across both. Not only for personal taste, but also for light reasons.

The way I understand it, we will have interpolation up to 240hz, as many 1080p panels have reached a point where they have a 4ms response time...or at least very, very close to it. It would make sense to take advantage of that extra ability even if not rated for 240hz. A 2x bfi (3x refresh rate) gives you a motion number of 720. The aim is undoubtedly to have a reasonably-priced panel that through whatever (cost-effective) means cross the perceived motion rate of 600hz. This could be done through at least a 5ms response time (200hz displayed image) and 2x bfi (for 3x that rate). Although the different parts of the equation may be unsuitable for everyone, that is besides the point: it should get the job done and look good to most people, especially considering the price range.

Breaking down the scheme past interpolation/soe to the bfi/bls portion of the equation, it's also why the M will likely be marketed around 450-500nits max brightness. You want at least 120-140 (calibrated and real) nits in a dark/lit room. Active backlight scanning of around 3x rate (2x bfi) would cut the real max number to around a third, which appeases that minimum. While Vizio has passively mentioned over-driving the leds when doing bfi, I would hope there is leeway when turned down or off to crank up the brightness (to a point). When panels are rated at 350 nits (for a typical 1080p) and up to 450 (for the 65 uhd auo panel everyone seems so excited about) for optimal contrast, you are going to need to make decisions on what is important. I imagine Vizio will give you the choice (Unlike say Toshiba, which at least appears focused on absolute picture/black levels and hence keeping brightness closer to the spec), although again I think their intention is using what's available/cheap (at least 5ms response rate panel for at least 200hz displayed interpolation at 3x rate, resulting in 1/3 max brightness totaling at least 140 nits).

Similarly, this is why the P series will probably be rated at least 600, but perhaps up to 700 nits (just like Toshiba). While there are not many 240hz (4ms response time) UHD panels, many are rated around 5.5-6.5ms (150-180hz). It makes sense to have the option of doing internal interpolation up to 240mhz versus not having it (especially if scaling a lower resolution), but it also will not see the greatest benefit as it's physically incapable at it's native resolution (and I wonder if it actually could be a potential source of flicker when used with bfi). They (probably) make up for lower response time with an extra black frame and brighter backlight to supplement it, hence the p series will likely be marketed as 'up to a motion number of 960'; Up to 120hz real input (not in quality uhd obviously given hdmi 2.0, but good quality 1080p), using interpolation up to 240hz (but again, probably not really displayed at 240hz in uhd, but conceivably 1080p), with 3x frame insertion (4x rate) and 1/4 brightness. That would mean their goal was using at least a 6.666ms panel (150hz displayed interpolation or slightly higher based on source) at 4x rate and 1/4 brightness for uhd, which is exactly what available panels are (mostly 6.5ms). in reality it probably won't be a 'ton' better motion performance than a ~4ms 1080p panel (like essentially all Sharp/Foxcon panels these days) with interpolation and 2x bfi (at least to some people), but it too, similarly but differently, should get the job done if that's what you're after...

...or at least something to that effect. That is my hypothesis, anyway, and I think it seems logical.

That alllll said, I only 'kind of' care about all this, as it all will probably be hugely detrimental to input lag and conceivably pq. I am still simply more excited about cheap, big, uhd/120hz input/hdmi 2.0 with direct back-light, but I do find the fact they are trying to make the absolute best of the situation (using affordable 120hz panels that can actually do better than that even if not 240hz, better and brighter available back-lighting/tricks to have those motion options available) incredibly appealing. When a company takes all the 'good-enough'/not hugely expensive tech and combines it to make something not only versatile, but that should indeed be a good-enough experience for a lot of people (for a reasonable price), it shows their engineering focus is in the right place for their market. That only bodes well for all future products.

TLDR: What they are doing with their product lines is smart. With how they are going about implementing features, I can't imagine they would cut off the ability to customize it to some extent. While what they are doing is absolutely and most certainly targeted, the price (compared to other displays) means they will end up being used beyond that intention. I would certainly hope they would be prepared for that reality, and things like 120hz input point distinctly in that direction.

editted for grammar, terminology clarification, and to add a bunch of rambling crap (apologies). tongue.gif

From the user manuals that have already come out for the several panel sizes of M Series (including the 65"), the backlight on the M is 400 Nits or 350 Nits.

Also, the Effective Refresh Rate is 240Hz, which I interpret to mean that pixel ON time is reduced to 8.4ms always (for an effective refresh rate of 240Hz).

There is nothing in the user manual about further blur reduction setting, but like you, I hope the reference to a Clear Action Rate of 720Hz means they take advantage of excess brightness to further reduce motion blur. About the only thing in the manual is the Cinema Dark picture mode. So perhaps in this mode, the pixel On time is further reduced to 2.8ms for an effective refresh rate of 360Hz while only reducing brightness to 133 or 117 Nits.

We don't know yet for the P Series - we'll need to wait to see what brightness the backlight delivers. With the M at 400 Nit and the R at 800 Nit, I'm hoping for a 600 Nit backlight on the P, but we wont know until the first user manuals issue. 600 Nits would allow the P to get to an effective refresh rate of 480Hz, at least in Cinema Dark picture mode or when the brightness was cranked down to 150 Nits or less.

The 720 action rate on the M is almost certainly a reference to the speed at which backlight segments are strobed on or off and since the M has 8 vertical X 4 horizontal dimming zones, it almost certainly has an 8-segment scanning backlight.
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post #2352 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 09:02 AM
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I'm pretty sure I saw the 47inch and 40 inch of the New M series at my costco.  They had the new design on the screen for the box and there was no mention of any 3d on the box either.  Go check out your local costcos.  They seem to be coming in.  I'm still waiting for the 65 inch version

Aw man you should have taken a closer look and snapped a picture!
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post #2353 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 09:04 AM
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Aw man you should have taken a closer look and snapped a picture!

I know, if my two year old son wasnt driving me crazy, i would have

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post #2354 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 09:36 AM
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There isnt a 40" nor a 47" M series 2014 model.
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post #2355 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 10:05 AM
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sorry everyone, the ones i saw were last years version.  I just noticed the 47 and 40 inch tvs werent 3d anyway and the new ones dont come in those sizes  Didnt mean to get people hopes up for nothing

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post #2356 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 02:09 PM
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There isnt a 40" nor a 47" M series 2014 model.

Yeah--last year there were 32", 40" and 47" whereas this year there are 32", 42" and 49"; strange choices.

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post #2357 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 05:06 PM
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Yeah--last year there were 32", 40" and 47" whereas this year there are 32", 42" and 49"; strange choices.

They're giving us two extra inches for free :P
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post #2358 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 06:51 PM
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Do we know the zone count difference between the 49" and 50" M models? At only 1" less, the amount of zones shouldn't be much different. If the 50" gets a few more zones, that would be my obvious choice between the 2.
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post #2359 of 5781 Old 04-29-2014, 09:35 PM
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Yeah--last year there were 32", 40" and 47" whereas this year there are 32", 42" and 49"; strange choices.
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They're giving us two extra inches for free :P

The 49" is a new 2013 LGD panel size it started prod in ~ Aug 13, The 42 " LGD panels have been around a while
but maybe not in Visio sets until 2014 ?

One of my other bedroom sets is a 2013 42" LG, OK set and decent picture all in all . Ofc MY bedroom has a 2013 Sony

CSOT also makes 3 49" panels but only in 4K . LGD makes 2 1080p 49" IPS panels so I'm thinking they are using LGD .
http://www.panelook.com/modelsearch.php?op=advancedsearch&order=panel_id&by=desc&inch_low=49&inch_high=49&production_state=1
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post #2360 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 10:21 AM
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Whatever happened to the CNET review of the 2014 E? Wasnt that supposed to happen back in March?
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Whatever happened to the CNET review of the 2014 E? Wasnt that supposed to happen back in March?

David K. said they were expecting a E series from Vizio back in March but a couple of weeks ago he decided to order one directly (apparently he didn't want to wait on Vizio anymore) but that sample arrived damaged and they were ordering another one. So, I would think it's coming fairly soon.

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post #2362 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 10:46 AM
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Any rumors on 65 or 70" 2014 E series release?

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post #2363 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 10:54 AM
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Any rumors on 65 or 70" 2014 E series release?

None. Vizio seems to be giving priority on the larger panel sizes to the M-Series (which is a good call in my view). The 65" M Series should be out within the next couple of weeks.

You could post your question on the Vizio facebook page - they seem to be responding to questions there (most of which have been about the M or the P).
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post #2364 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 11:39 AM
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Since we haven't heard any new information in a while, is the R series now likely to not drop until July/August? Is it going to drop this year?
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post #2365 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 11:51 AM
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Since we haven't heard any new information in a while, is the R series now likely to not drop until July/August? Is it going to drop this year?

Certainly not by July/August. Unclear if even the P will be out by then.

If Vizio does not announce at least pricing for the 65" Reference Series by the end of June, I would say that the window for a 2014 release of the 65" R Series has started to close. Among other things, the Sony X950B and Toshiba L9400U will already be available by then, and even Panasonic has already announced pricing for the AX900 not expected to materialize until very late this year.

Heck, even the 65" LG OLED has already been priced and is likely to make in to this years Value Electronics Shootout: http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=95334
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post #2366 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 12:39 PM
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Certainly not by July/August. Unclear if even the P will be out by then.

If Vizio does not announce at least pricing for the 65" Reference Series by the end of June, I would say that the window for a 2014 release of the 65" R Series has started to close. Among other things, the Sony X950B and Toshiba L9400U will already be available by then, and even Panasonic has already announced pricing for the AX900 not expected to materialize until very late this year.

Heck, even the 65" LG OLED has already been priced and is likely to make in to this years Value Electronics Shootout: http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=95334

That's lgs 4k oled right if so that price isn't as bad as I expected makes me consider holding out
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post #2367 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 12:55 PM
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Yes that's a fantastic price for a 65" OLED. Consider that a 65" Sony FALD was 5k just a year or two ago. Very promising news to people like me who would prefer to skip over the typically bad uniformity issues of an LCD.
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post #2368 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 01:02 PM
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Yes that's a fantastic price for a 65" OLED. Consider that a 65" Sony FALD was 5k just a year or two ago. Very promising news to people like me who would prefer to skip over the typically bad uniformity issues of an LCD.

Exactly looking at other sets so far it's not looking good hoping the vizios look great idk if I can bring myself to pay a premium for something that looks the way these sets do.
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post #2369 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 01:40 PM
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The Plasma fanboys have decended on the LCD forum. LOL!

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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post #2370 of 5781 Old 04-30-2014, 01:55 PM
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The Plasma fanboys have decended on the LCD forum. LOL!

Kinda sorta.

I had a 50" Vizio Plasma first, now a 60" LG Plasma.

I've talked myself into "needing" an upgrade to a bigger size, and it has to be worth it, so I'm really wanting an 80" now. And that's going to be not-Plasma. I just don't think going to a 70" would be enough of a jump for the cost over what I have now. 75"...maybe. But I saw the current 80" Vizio at Costco and... eek.gif That would be so awesome. Not being in a rush, I'm just waiting for the 2014 M80 to come out now.
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