Panasonic Claims New LED-lit LCDs Match Plasma Quality at CES 2014 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 368 Old 01-16-2014, 09:13 PM
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i don't understand all the hate for Panasonic here. while their announcement made me chuckle as well (considering their flagship is an Edge-LED set), consumers should be happy that they'll be focusing a lot more on LCD now.

if they can survive in the LCD market until they've developed a quality FALD set, there's no reason they can't become a top LCD brand. outside of styling, Panasonic has done a lot of things very well and has always put an emphasis on PQ.
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post #182 of 368 Old 01-16-2014, 09:14 PM
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I'm very interested to see if their fald prototype set will be out this year and how it compares to the likes of sony and samsung

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post #183 of 368 Old 01-16-2014, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkknightman View Post

I'm very interested to see if their fald prototype set will be out this year and how it compares to the likes of sony and samsung

Same here.

I do wonder if there are issues with full array local dimming that we don't know about. Other than the obvious problem of having sharp cutoffs in areas with fine detail. That should affect local contrast in a strange unnatural way.

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post #184 of 368 Old 01-16-2014, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkknightman View Post

I'm very interested to see if their fald prototype set will be out this year and how it compares to the likes of sony and samsung

I am as well. I'm hopeful that one of the reasons that Panasonic bailed from plasma is because this LCD really does live up to the CES hype.

Looky here!
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post #185 of 368 Old 01-16-2014, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

I think that is right.  I think most people have far too small of a screen for their viewing distance to even justify having 1080p.  Here is a calculator to help people understand my opinion on this:

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/HDTV_Viewing_Distance_Calculator_Guide_page1.html

If someone has 20/20 vision, and they sit only 8' from the screen, they need a TV larger than 60" to see all of the detail of a 1080p screen.  How many people have such a screen at such a distance?  And you would only need 4k for "prefect" detail if you wanted a larger screen than that at that distance.

At 10', the TV should be slightly larger than 76" to be able to see all of the detail of 1080p.  And at 12', it would be over 92" to be able to see all of the detail of 1080p.

Anyone who sits 11' away from a 55" TV might as well have 720p, as they will not see even that much detail.  That is, assuming that they have 20/20 vision (or worse).

I can't comment on how far people do sit away from there tv (there relative screen size) as I have no idea. But assuming one sits at the THX or SMPTE recommended viewing distance there is a benefit to going above 1080p (though at this point you will not be able to see the full detail of 4k you will still derive the benefit as you can see above 1080p assuming you have 20 20 vision). We could also throw in the fact that some have better vision then 20 20 in which case the benefit is even larger.

Now I would venture a guess 4k will only be appreciated by enthusiasts and less by the mainstream. In other words I think 4k tv's will be the standard in years to come, but 4k content will be only used by a minority of people. Blu-ray after all is still only sitting at around 30% market share of physical movie sales and this number only gets worse when you take into account the other ways people view content via streaming etc. I just don't see people at large caring all that much for 4k, however I want it very much so. So even currently whilst most people may have 1080p displays (I don't know if this is the case) most are still using sources below 1080p for there content.
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post #186 of 368 Old 01-17-2014, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by robnix View Post

I'm hopeful that one of the reasons that Panasonic bailed from plasma is because this LCD really does live up to the CES hype.

It isn't.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #187 of 368 Old 01-17-2014, 12:56 AM
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its still "EDGE-LED"!!! and with LocalDimming!

need full-array-led+LD

Edge-lit comes with a full off issues such as "classic" bleeding,mura effect,torch-light,uniformity etc.,

This "type" of panel techn. is over!

Why mfgs.still persist to produce those "Classic"s!!

Time to shift a "new" type panels!

Bye++

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post #188 of 368 Old 01-17-2014, 07:28 AM
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I'm very happy with my 60ST60 I bought in December; it should give me many years of great TV viewing. I expect it to keep me happy until OLED or something better comes along in 5-10 years. Regardless, I hope Panasonic stays in the TV display business; IMO they have been the most consistent provider of performance, quality, reliability and affordability in the TV market for several decades.
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post #189 of 368 Old 01-17-2014, 11:03 AM
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OF COURSE Panasonic will make this claim.

They are getting out of the BETTER but less profitable PLASMA business.

Of course they would say this.

And in short order we will have less choice.

Until--unless--if--when the OLED and 4K/8K gets going this is what we'll have to deal with.

From what I can see, it probably won't be too bad.

Of Course.

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post #190 of 368 Old 01-17-2014, 01:10 PM
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To be fair, Panasonic LCDs have improved a lot in the last 18 months, they used to get poor reviews especially for the price. That means they're now worth considering if you were going to buy an LCD, but still nowhere near the best an LCD can offer.
I am still very happy with my TX-P42G15, and if I see a new 46 or 50 inch plasma at a good price I'll be buying it, and hoping it will last until something worthy comes along.. maybe that will be sooner than we think, but for price/performance plasma it's still unbeatable IMNSHO.
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post #191 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 08:15 AM
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Best Buy had a sale that sold out real fast on the 65 inch VT60's the other day..1999.99 with free shipping
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post #192 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

I can't comment on how far people do sit away from there tv (there relative screen size) as I have no idea. But assuming one sits at the THX or SMPTE recommended viewing distance there is a benefit to going above 1080p (though at this point you will not be able to see the full detail of 4k you will still derive the benefit as you can see above 1080p assuming you have 20 20 vision). We could also throw in the fact that some have better vision then 20 20 in which case the benefit is even larger.

Now I would venture a guess 4k will only be appreciated by enthusiasts and less by the mainstream. In other words I think 4k tv's will be the standard in years to come, but 4k content will be only used by a minority of people. Blu-ray after all is still only sitting at around 30% market share of physical movie sales and this number only gets worse when you take into account the other ways people view content via streaming etc. I just don't see people at large caring all that much for 4k, however I want it very much so. So even currently whilst most people may have 1080p displays (I don't know if this is the case) most are still using sources below 1080p for there content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Yes, you are right that you don't have to be able to see all of the detail of 1080p for it to be noticeably better than 720p.  If you reread my post carefully, I did not state otherwise.  But you do have to see all of the detail of 1080p before 4k is going to do you any good.  In fact, you have to want a bigger screen than what it would take to see all of the detail of 1080p (for whatever distance one views it) before 4k will make even a slight difference in visible detail.  And that means that one must want a bigger screen than 60" at 8' (actually, it would need to be bigger than 61", and, again, this is assuming 20/20 vision) for 4k to visibly improve the detail.  Or bigger than 76" at 10', or bigger than 92" at 12'.  Since most people do not have TVs big enough for their viewing distance to be able to see all of the detail that their 1080p TVs produce, more detail will do them no good at all.

For 4k to give one useful detail over 1080p, one must want a TV bigger for the viewing distance than what it would take to be able to barely see all of the detail of 1080p.  For figuring that out, the calculator in my previous post is quite informative.  Most people already have more detail than they are actually using because of the viewing distance for the size of TV that they have.









Ian wink.gif
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post #193 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:01 PM
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If I get $1 everytime I see someone post that foolish chart, I can buy a Sony 4K projector at full MSRP, biggrin.gif
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post #194 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Same here.

I do wonder if there are issues with full array local dimming that we don't know about. Other than the obvious problem of having sharp cutoffs in areas with fine detail. That should affect local contrast in a strange unnatural way.
There are 3 issues

1 and 2. Number of LED needs to be used for each TV (more than 1,500) which creates more weight. Hence the higher manufacturing and shipping cost
3. The TV can't be anywhere as thin as most people want them to be

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post #195 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If I get $1 everytime I see someone post that foolish chart, I can buy a Sony 4K projector at full MSRP, biggrin.gif

I also think that chart is off, but it is also true that without exactly the same content playing on exactly the same TVs (except for resolution), it is really not a objective comparison.

It would be FANTASTIC if the 2014 VE shootout decided to use the audience of attendees to test this (the 'guess which of these sets is 4K' contest biggrin.gif)

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post #196 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If I get $1 everytime I see someone post that foolish chart, I can buy a Sony 4K projector at full MSRP, biggrin.gif

You must be a 4k enthusiast! How's this one? tongue.gif






Ian biggrin.gif
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post #197 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:13 PM
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The reason I know that the chart is foolish is because even my parents who don't care about HT at all, they can always tell whenever I play a 720p video vs 1080p on their 80" screen viewed from 14ft away... Which according to the chart it would be impossible to tell the difference.

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post #198 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

There are 3 issues

1 and 2. Number of LED needs to be used for each TV (more than 1,500) which creates more weight. Hence the higher manufacturing and shipping cost
3. The TV can't be anywhere as thin as most people want them to be

1. LEDs have gotten brighter since 2011, so I believe equivalent brightness may now be possible with fewer LEDs (can wait until someone pops the back of a 2014 Vizio E-Series :-)

2. LEDs have also gotten significantly less expensive since 2011.

3. Any consumer that values thin over a plasma-like picture quality deserves what they get. I also believe the thin-ness issue has been overblown. The average consumer once had a rear-projection TV in their living room, and on that scale, the thickest of FALD implementations is going to be pretty darned thing.

4. Is the real issue (in my mind) - halo (blooming). With a small number of dimming zones, this could be a showstopper (unless the TV vendors are bringing much more sophisticated technology to the local dimming game, possibly aided by the much more powerful processing power available in a high-end TV in 2014 versus last time around in 2011...

The following article does a good job showing the problem of halo/blooming with typical local dimming technology: http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-local-dimming

If any of the new local dmming TVs show an image similar to the first one in this link, that would be a showstopper, at least for for me...

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post #199 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:19 PM
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Ian, good chart! biggrin.gif

All I know is that I sit 8ft away from my 103" screen and using the Sony VPL-HW1000ES, it's very easy to tell whether I'm playing 1080p signal vs 4K signal of the same movie.

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post #200 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post


4. Is the real issue (in my mind) - halo (blooming). With a small number of dimming zones, this could be a showstopper (unless the TV vendors are bringing much more sophisticated technology to the local dimming game, possibly aided by the much more powerful processing power available in a high-end TV in 2014 versus last time around in 2011...



-fafrd

To overcome the halo-ing issue, according to Dolby, you'll need at least 6,000 LED running with 2,000 zones. Which is what being used by Dolby professional reference (LCD) monitor.

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post #201 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The reason I know that the chart is foolish is because even my parents who don't care about HT at all, they can always tell whenever I play a 720p video vs 1080p on their 80" screen viewed from 14ft away... Which according to the chart it would be impossible to tell the difference.

I think you may not be reading the chart properly.

At 14 feet viewing distance from an 80" screen, the chart says the benefits of 1080p should be visible.

With the same 80", the viewing distance needs to be at least 16-16.5 feet before the benefits of 1080p over 720p become 'invisible'...

-fafrd

p.s. I still have my doubts about the chart, but your example is unfortunately not a good one to point out that the chart is flawed.
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post #202 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

To overcome the halo-ing issue, according to Dolby, you'll need at least 6,000 LED running with 2,000 zones. Which is what being used by Dolby professional reference (LCD) monitor.

Which would be nuts, at least for us average everyday Joes...

So the real question to me is, how well did the Sharp Elite with its 216 zones, avoid the kind of halo/blooming shown in this example?

How many LED's were in the Sharp panel?

What improvements (from thinner LEDs, brighter LEDs, and more processing power allowing improved dimming algorithms including per-pixel compensation) have been developed over the last few years to improve upon the Elite (or to deliver a similar a similar performance at significantly lower cost)?

-fafrd
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post #203 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Ian, good chart! biggrin.gif

All I know is that I sit 8ft away from my 103" screen and using the Sony VPL-HW1000ES, it's very easy to tell whether I'm playing 1080p signal vs 4K signal of the same movie.

 

Both of the charts he provided indicate that if you have 20/20 vision, you should easily be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 4k at 8' from a 103" screen.  If I am reading the chart right, it looks like you should start to see a difference at about 13'.

 

To get a more exact number, I plugged into:

 

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/HDTV_Viewing_Distance_Calculator_Guide_page1.html

 

If your vision is 20/20, you should start to see a difference at 13.39'.


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post #204 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Ian, good chart! biggrin.gif

All I know is that I sit 8ft away from my 103" screen and using the Sony VPL-HW1000ES, it's very easy to tell whether I'm playing 1080p signal vs 4K signal of the same movie.

Can't tell if this was a joke or not, but if not, it is another unfortunate example.

Viewing a 103" screen from 8 ft. away, the chart says that you should easily be able to see the difference between a 1080p signal and a 4K signal...

In fact, the chart says that you will start to be able to perceive the additional detail of the 4K signal when viewed by as much as about 14 feet...

The FULL benefit of the 4K signal will not become perceptible until viewed from 6-7 feet away... (at which time you should think about moving up to 8K biggrin.gif )

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post #205 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:38 PM
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Don't bring rational thought into this. The guy is too busy being angry about a chart. IIt makes sense to be angry about a chart when even your parents empirical observations back it up.

"All I know is that I sit 8ft away from my 103" screen and using the Sony VPL-HW1000ES, it's very easy to tell whether I'm playing 1080p signal vs 4K signal of the same movie."

Yeah if you look up the chart, that's what it says. It must be fun watching the same movies over and over again. I mean I hope the benefits of 4k outweigh having seen th emovie already.
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post #206 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Both of the charts he provided indicate that if you have 20/20 vision, you should easily be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 4k at 8' from a 103" screen.  If I am reading the chart right, it looks like you should start to see a difference at about 13'.

To get a more exact number, I plugged into:

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/HDTV_Viewing_Distance_Calculator_Guide_page1.html

If your vision is 20/20, you should start to see a difference at 13.39'.

You just beat me to it, Jack biggrin.gif

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post #207 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The reason I know that the chart is foolish is because even my parents who don't care about HT at all, they can always tell whenever I play a 720p video vs 1080p on their 80" screen viewed from 14ft away... Which according to the chart it would be impossible to tell the difference.

I think you may not be reading the chart properly.

At 14 feet viewing distance from an 80" screen, the chart says the benefits of 1080p should be visible.

With the same 80", the viewing distance needs to be at least 16-16.5 feet before the benefits of 1080p over 720p become 'invisible'...

-fafrd

p.s. I still have my doubts about the chart, but your example is unfortunately not a good one to point out that the chart is flawed.

 

Yes, he is misreading the chart.


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post #208 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The reason I know that the chart is foolish is because even my parents who don't care about HT at all, they can always tell whenever I play a 720p video vs 1080p on their 80" screen viewed from 14ft away... Which according to the chart it would be impossible to tell the difference.

Some people have better then 20 20 vision hence cannot be applied to everyone. Also as others have said you have misread the chart.



Anyone who was defending Pansonic have any thoughts on why they presented the lcd vs zt60 in such a stacked manner if they truly felt it was as good. tongue.gif Panasonic would have been better of saying nothing as such comments will likely only be noted by the enthusiasts at this stage and when they fail to deliver (and try and hide there failure) it becomes rather amusing. I'm still hoping they get there, but now CES has been there claims have gone from amusing to laughable to me.


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post #209 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by albani View Post

its still "EDGE-LED"!!! and with LocalDimming!

need full-array-led+LD

Edge-lit comes with a full off issues such as "classic" bleeding,mura effect,torch-light,uniformity etc.,

This "type" of panel techn. is over!

Why mfgs.still persist to produce those "Classic"s!!

Time to shift a "new" type panels!

Bye++

I agree with you 100%, it's time to ditch edge lit.... It doesn't have what it takes, 4K can't even save it.. And by running material in full screen (no letterbox bars) just fools folks and hides it's black level flaws.. If Panasonic took its IPS panel and made it full array they would have a winner, as the viewing angle is fantastic.
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post #210 of 368 Old 01-18-2014, 10:24 PM
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8" away from a 103" ? Good lord, I can't stand sitting closer than 11 from my 60"...Yup, 4k is absolutely useless for me, at least when it comes to movies. for certain videogame genres, it could prove to be pretty darn amazing. Mario Kart 9(in 5 years) locked in at 4k, and sitting even closer to the screen would be pretty damn immersive.
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