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post #271 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

That''s a load of crap
Vizio are also sold in Best Buy, Sears, Paul's TV, on top of smaller dedicated AV stores & the slew of online retailers.
The Sony price should also not be indicative of the the Vizo price. Sony is charging up the ass for its name, not necessarily for the technology.

Don't shoot the messenger, I was merely quoting the HDGuru.
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post #272 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 07:39 AM
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What makes FALD so expensive?

In my head it seems pretty simple. An array of LEDs controlled by some clever software in the imaging processor.

The software has been in development for some years now, they can't be desperate to recoup the costs of that anymore. Processors are a lot more powerful now than when we first saw FALD, and a processor that can do something as demanding as HEVC decoding can surely run FALD software.
Is the cost really going towards a bunch of LEDs?

It is unquestionably costlier to produce FALD than edge lit. How much of the actual production cost is padded by the manufacturer's, I don't know. However whatever premium had been charged in the past for FALD, most of the buying public was not interested. The only consumers buying FA were people who were really interested in getting the best blacks and were willing to pay for it. That number wasn't enough to keep manufacturer's interested in continuing production.

However it's great to see a resurgence of this tech. To be fair, although I haven't seen them in a truly darkened environment, Samsung has done pretty well with black levels in some models without FALD with the 'tricks' (as some people like to call them) they've implemented to improve upon edge lit. Perhaps not quite as good as FA, but better than many edge lit solutions.
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post #273 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Yeah, that's right. The Sharp Elite has set the standard for black-level, shadow detail, and contrast in a local dimming LCD that does not exhibit noticeable blooming.

Yup. I still haven't seen darker blacks on any display than what I see on my Elite.

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Resolution is a different (and independent) matter. I would gladly take a 1080p FALD TV with Elite-like local dimming performance (and no chroma bug) over an edge-lit 4K set (and I believe there are many who feel the same)...
Interesting - thanks. Did he see any specific areas where the X950B outperformed the Reference?
-fafrd

I can well understand that. However as I mentioned before, I'd have to see some of the best Samsung non-FA displays in a darkened environment before I'd say I'd take another "Elite-like" 2K display over a well-executed, non-FALD 4K display. There are so many variables in the way manufacturer's execute these things, it's tough to generalize. But yes, all other things being equal, FALD is the way to go...if you're willing to pay for it.

I didn't question my friend as to what areas he felt the 950 outperformed the R series.
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post #274 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 08:01 AM
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No idea. I counted out 64 on my TV earlier, sort of eyeing it while watching some Olympics and some regular TV. You, of course, want more. But will 64 deliver a lot of value? If it ends up something like 8 x 8, I think it will.

Which TV do you have with the 64 zones, Mark? I thought you had a Panny plasma.
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To be clear, the P series is a given. The Reference is the "maybe or maybe not." I think the P series at $2600 might compete with $5000+ competing products. It might not be as good, but it might be. The Reference has no price, no release date, no commitment.

But as is always the case, there are always people who are willing to pay for that last ounce (or ounces, as the case may be) of performance. These consumers may pass on the P series if it turns out to be a somewhat lesser performer. Also, since Vizio is acknowledging that the R series is a better performer than the P series and it seems to be the consensus that the R series was either 'as good', 'not quite as good' or 'a bit better' than the Sony 950, it seems logical to assume the P series will not perform as well as the Sony 950 series.
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post #275 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post

What makes FALD so expensive?

In my head it seems pretty simple. An array of LEDs controlled by some clever software in the imaging processor.

The software has been in development for some years now, they can't be desperate to recoup the costs of that anymore. Processors are a lot more powerful now than when we first saw FALD, and a processor that can do something as demanding as HEVC decoding can surely run FALD software.
Is the cost really going towards a bunch of LEDs?

I think that is it - the cost of the extra LEDs. LEDs have come way down in price since 2011. They have also become brighter (which means fewer of them are needed to achieve the same brightness). The first edge-lit sets reduced the LED count to the minimum, so they represented both a significant cost reduction and a thinner TV. Then as those edge-lit sets began to add edge-lit dimming zones and improved uniformity the number of (less expensive) LEDs probably began to creep up. In the case of Vizio's E-Series, I would bet that there is almost no increase in cost by going to a 6-horizontal-zone edge-lit local dimming panel to a 6-horizontal-zone full-array local-dimming panel. performance should also not be that much better, but the earlier customer reviews are intriguing...

New software and compensation technologies may now allow a good FALD performance with fewer zones than in the past. Fewer zones should translate into (relatively) fewer LEDs. It will be interesting to see how the Vizio P Series performs with 64 zones - in the FALD1.0 implementations, 64 dimming zones would have exhibited noticeable blooming...

For the best FALD implementation with a large number of zones (200-400) to prevent any noticeable blooming (like the Sharp Elite of old), for sure a significantly greater number of LEDs are required. On the other hand, that incremental cost represents a far lower % of overall product cost than it did in 2011...


-fafrd
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post #276 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

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Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post

What makes FALD so expensive?

In my head it seems pretty simple. An array of LEDs controlled by some clever software in the imaging processor.

The software has been in development for some years now, they can't be desperate to recoup the costs of that anymore. Processors are a lot more powerful now than when we first saw FALD, and a processor that can do something as demanding as HEVC decoding can surely run FALD software.
Is the cost really going towards a bunch of LEDs?

It is unquestionably costlier to produce FALD than edge lit. How much of the actual production cost is padded by the manufacturer's, I don't know.

Just added a post replying to the same question. The incremental cost for a FALD implementation has decreased significantly since 2011 (primarily because the cost of LEDs has been decreasing).

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However whatever premium had been charged in the past for FALD, most of the buying public was not interested. The only consumers buying FA were people who were really interested in getting the best blacks and were willing to pay for it. That number wasn't enough to keep manufacturer's interested in continuing production.

I think this is partly correct though the other important factor was the emergence of 'thin' mainly driven by Samsung. 'Thin' was 'in' and new, FALD was 'thick' and old so the FALD sets ended up having a disadvantage versus plasma (inferior PQ or higher price for similar PQ) for the enthusiasts and a disadvantage versus edge-lit LCDs in terms of higher price for the mainstream market. Samsung did a brilliant job with the marketing of their thin TVs and drove the entire market to chase them. It still amazes me. So yeah, they couldn't see a viable pathway to sufficient sales against less-expensive plasmas or thinner and less expensive edge-lit LCDs and so they shut it down. It still amazes me that Sharp never put out a second generation of the Elite with the Chroma bug corrected...

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However it's great to see a resurgence of this tech. To be fair, although I haven't seen them in a truly darkened environment, Samsung has done pretty well with black levels in some models without FALD with the 'tricks' (as some people like to call them) they've implemented to improve upon edge lit. Perhaps not quite as good as FA, but better than many edge lit solutions.

Samsung has done about as well as possible with edge-lit dimming, which means to completely darken the top and bottom letterbox bars when watching widescreen content. So the distracting dark grey letterboxes are gone, and when the entire scene is dark, they can improve dark levels (but not contrast), but shadow detail in a mixed scene including high brightness cannot be improved.

So yes, better that many edge-lit solutions (especially older ones), but the technology is incapable of coming close to plasma contrast in scenes that include both high brightness areas and dark areas with detail.

I think the 1080p+/4K- Sharp panels which are priced close to the Vizio P Series will be the interesting comparison. The Sharp is edge-lit, the Vizio P Series is FALD with only 64 Zones and they are both priced in the low $2000's (for 65"). It will be interesting to see which panel delivers better picture quality with challenging content...

-fafrd
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post #277 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 02:40 PM
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I didn't question my friend as to what areas he felt the 950 outperformed the R series.

Thanks. If you have another discussion with him on the subject, I'd be interested in any additional detail he can share on comparison between these two panels...

-fafrd
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post #278 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 02:49 PM
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To be clear, the P series is a given. The Reference is the "maybe or maybe not." I think the P series at $2600 might compete with $5000+ competing products. It might not be as good, but it might be. The Reference has no price, no release date, no commitment.

But as is always the case, there are always people who are willing to pay for that last ounce (or ounces, as the case may be) of performance. These consumers may pass on the P series if it turns out to be a somewhat lesser performer. Also, since Vizio is acknowledging that the R series is a better performer than the P series and it seems to be the consensus that the R series was either 'as good', 'not quite as good' or 'a bit better' than the Sony 950, it seems logical to assume the P series will not perform as well as the Sony 950 series.

One of the major advantages of the Vizio Reference Series and the Sony X950B over the Vizio P Series is the extended pseudo-rec.2020 color gamut. That is for future proofing and having the capability of HDR once it becomes available, which the P sill not support.

For the here and now, it is all about the local dimming implementation and whether there are visible signs of distracting blooming or not.

The Vizio Reference Series has 384 local dimming zones and should be able to match or outperform the local dimming performance of the Sharp Elite.

The Sony X950B has an unknown number of local dimming zones and early impressions indicate that it may also be able to deliver Elite-level local dimming performance. Sony originally called the X950B 'direct-lit' which implies fewer LEDs spaced farther back from the LCD panel and hence likely also implies fewer dimming zones as well. They have since changed their terminology to say 'Full Array', so whether this is an indication that the X950B has fewer LEDs and fewer local dimming zones than the Vizio Reference Series (as well as what this translates into in terms of visible signs of distracting blooming during normal viewing content), or whether the X950B is a high-quality FLAD implementation in the class of the Sharp Elite (meaning more than 200 dimming zones) remains to be seen.

The Vizio P Series has 64 local dimming zones and should not be able to deliver the same level of local dimming performance as the Elite. How that translates into distracting blooming visible during normal viewing content remains to be seen.

I'm pretty sure that for us enthusiast who have been tracking this market over the past 5+ years, 2014 is going to go down as one of the most interesting years in recent memory...

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post #279 of 583 Old 02-13-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post


I'm pretty sure that for us enthusiast who have been tracking this market over the past 5+ years, 2014 is going to go down as one of the most interesting years in recent memory...

-fafrd
I agree, only because of the release of two more 55" LG OLED and the 77" LG OLED wink.gif

The FALD sets above will be below, as good as, or a "hair" above the local dimming units of the past, except they will be 4K. Let's face it, old technology gift rapped in 4K, OLED is where its at, just pricy for now........
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post #280 of 583 Old 02-14-2014, 03:00 AM
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I think this is partly correct though the other important factor was the emergence of 'thin' mainly driven by Samsung. 'Thin' was 'in' and new, FALD was 'thick' and old so the FALD sets ended up having a disadvantage versus plasma (inferior PQ or higher price for similar PQ) for the enthusiasts and a disadvantage versus edge-lit LCDs in terms of higher price for the mainstream market. Samsung did a brilliant job with the marketing of their thin TVs and drove the entire market to chase them. It still amazes me. 

-fafrd

 

I think you are right about that. 'Thin' became the new hotness around the same time FALD came out, and since they were mutually exclusive, FALD had to bow out.

 

Maybe the manufacturers still don't believe the thick FALD sets can compete on normal terms against the thin LED sets, and instead aim for the high-end segment with high prices and no-compromise specs all around.

 

Pricing the X950B twice as high as the X850B is one way to signal that this set has something special in it. It might make consumers stop and ask "why is this set which is thicker and also 4k twice the price of this one?" and then the sales people has a chance to answer that.


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post #281 of 583 Old 02-14-2014, 03:26 AM
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In the context of a discussion about Sony's "direct-lit" displays, I though I might mention Sony's public displays. Some of those were, if their web pages are accurate, direct-lit last year. Here's one on their UK site now;

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/professional-displays-public-displays/fwd-s55h2/specifications#specifications

They claim it is direct-lit and has a "brightness" of 1000 cd/m^2. I saw similar displays on their site last year.

Could those displays be using a similar type if backlighting to that used in this year's upper tier Sony TVs? Or is that unlikely?
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FOR WHAT I NEED HEVC decoding IN MY TV confused.gif
I see today Many films with HEVC decoding and VLC player
AlsoI have no video card with HEVC decoding

so FOR WHAT I NEED HEVC decoding IN MY TV confused.gif
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post #283 of 583 Old 02-14-2014, 08:01 AM
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FOR WHAT I NEED HEVC decoding IN MY TV confused.gif
I see today Many films with HEVC decoding and VLC player
AlsoI have no video card with HEVC decoding

so FOR WHAT I NEED HEVC decoding IN MY TV confused.gif

 

Netflix in 4K. Neither Roku, Apple TV, Playstation or any of the other media centers support HEVC at the moment. Only the Netflix clients on 2014 TVs do. 

 

I'm sure there are more scenarios, but there's one obvious one.


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post #284 of 583 Old 02-14-2014, 05:05 PM
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In the context of a discussion about Sony's "direct-lit" displays, I though I might mention Sony's public displays. Some of those were, if their web pages are accurate, direct-lit last year. Here's one on their UK site now;

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/professional-displays-public-displays/fwd-s55h2/specifications#specifications

They claim it is direct-lit and has a "brightness" of 1000 cd/m^2. I saw similar displays on their site last year.

Could those displays be using a similar type if backlighting to that used in this year's upper tier Sony TVs? Or is that unlikely?

The link you provided appears to lead to a different page than you think - is it the 'W95' you are talking about?

Historically, 'direct-lit' implied fewer LEDs placed farther from the LCD, so thicker, and less expensive, and lower light output. 'Full-array' has meant more LEDs placed directly behind the LCD, so not quite as 'thicker', but more expensive and higher light output.

Sony originally called the X950A 'Direct Lit' and then changed it to 'Full Array'. So it is possible that Sony was using their own meaning for the term Direct-Lit, realized how it was being interpreted by the rest of the market, and corrected it.

Certainly if they had a display putting out 1000 Nits and called it 'Direct Lit' that would be consistent of a different use of the term.

The brightest backlight I have heard of is that of the Vizio Reference Series, which is 800 Nit and is a Full-Array-Local-Dimming backlight...

-fafrd
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post #285 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 03:39 AM
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The link you provided appears to lead to a different page than you think - is it the 'W95' you are talking about?

Historically, 'direct-lit' implied fewer LEDs placed farther from the LCD, so thicker, and less expensive, and lower light output. 'Full-array' has meant more LEDs placed directly behind the LCD, so not quite as 'thicker', but more expensive and higher light output.

Sony originally called the X950A 'Direct Lit' and then changed it to 'Full Array'. So it is possible that Sony was using their own meaning for the term Direct-Lit, realized how it was being interpreted by the rest of the market, and corrected it.

Certainly if they had a display putting out 1000 Nits and called it 'Direct Lit' that would be consistent of a different use of the term.

The brightest backlight I have heard of is that of the Vizio Reference Series, which is 800 Nit and is a Full-Array-Local-Dimming backlight...

-fafrd

Thank you for the information. For some reason the link I gave is redirecting. Let's try this: Sony FWD-S55H2

I hope that's better. It's working in the message preview for me. The direct-lit information is given in the specs tab.
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Question,

So what I gathered from CES is all these new 4k tvs will come with hdmi 2.0. Today, emotiva announced their new pre/pro won't come with a chip that is hdmi 2.0 compliant as those chips are not expected to be released / mass produced by the end of this year.

So I Was originally excited to get a new TV this year, but after hearing from different sources that a full hdmi 2.0 spec compliant chip won't be out till later this year what's the point?

I was really excited for the 79 inch plus Vizio's, Toshiba's, and the rest of the tvs.
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post #287 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 07:26 AM
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Emotiva may not have them but TVs with HDMI 2.0 have been shipping since last year.

Ok.

Just seemed the way everyone was talking in the Emotiva thread (and the Emotiva president) made it seem hdmi 2.0 was still not nailed down and there was yet a chip to handle full 10 or 12 bit and be HDCP 2.2 compliant which is what hdmi 2.0 requires. If these TVs have chips on board able to handle it all, especially the TV's coming with 10bit panels, then I'm very happy.

Link to Emotiva thread:
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/35688/word-hdmi-2-xmc-1
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post #288 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 07:45 AM
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seems that the XCode 6400 is the first SoC (System on a Chip) that supports UHD 4K HEVC Main 10 profile. It also can decode HEVC based content and display resolutions up to UHD 4K at a full 60 frames per second. It was shown at CES 2014..

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/vixs-xcode-6400-soc-powers-panasonics-new-ultra-hd-4k-television-with-support-for-true-ultra-hd-4k-decoding-239035851.html
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XCode is a trademark registered to Apple.
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Oh, wait, it's Xcode. Small C.
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post #291 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

The link you provided appears to lead to a different page than you think - is it the 'W95' you are talking about?

Historically, 'direct-lit' implied fewer LEDs placed farther from the LCD, so thicker, and less expensive, and lower light output. 'Full-array' has meant more LEDs placed directly behind the LCD, so not quite as 'thicker', but more expensive and higher light output.

Sony originally called the X950A 'Direct Lit' and then changed it to 'Full Array'. So it is possible that Sony was using their own meaning for the term Direct-Lit, realized how it was being interpreted by the rest of the market, and corrected it.

Certainly if they had a display putting out 1000 Nits and called it 'Direct Lit' that would be consistent of a different use of the term.

The brightest backlight I have heard of is that of the Vizio Reference Series, which is 800 Nit and is a Full-Array-Local-Dimming backlight...

-fafrd

Thank you for the information. For some reason the link I gave is redirecting. Let's try this: Sony FWD-S55H2

I hope that's better. It's working in the message preview for me. The direct-lit information is given in the specs tab.

Thanks - that link worked.

So yeah, with 1000 Nit brightness, here is no way that panel could be 'Direct Lit' in the historical sense of that term within the industry.

Sony must have started to use the term 'direct-lit' to distinguish from 'edge-lit' without realizing that the term had already been used and had connotation (or they knew and assumed that they would be able to get a fresh start in order to establish a new meaning for the term.

'Direct-lit' would actually be a pretty good term to contrast from 'edge lit', except it had already been used and the prevailing term of 'full-array' could be used by other vendors to imply that their backlight has more LEDs and is more 'full' than a 'direct-let' backlight.

I think exactly that kind of confusion and marketing skirmish was starting immediately after CES especially regarding the X950B and Sony quickly decided it was a losing battle and backed off. Hence the reference to the X950B being 'Direct-lit' quickly got replaced with 'Full-array'.

I'm still curios to know how many LEDs there are on the backlight of the X950B and more importantly how many local dimming zones it has...

-fafrd
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post #292 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 01:22 PM
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Question,

So what I gathered from CES is all these new 4k tvs will come with hdmi 2.0. Today, emotiva announced their new pre/pro won't come with a chip that is hdmi 2.0 compliant as those chips are not expected to be released / mass produced by the end of this year.

So I Was originally excited to get a new TV this year, but after hearing from different sources that a full hdmi 2.0 spec compliant chip won't be out till later this year what's the point?

I was really excited for the 79 inch plus Vizio's, Toshiba's, and the rest of the tvs.

The Vizio P is not scheduled to release until August and the R until several months after that - maybe it is no coincidence...

-fafrd
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post #293 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
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Its true there are still some things in flux about the 4K format in general but I'm not sure what specifically he is referring to there.

I know for certain the Sony TVs have HDCP 2.2 since it is required for their media player. They even did in-home hardware upgrades for older models. A Sony rep talks about it here:

http://community.sony.com/t5/4K-Ultra-HD-TV/Upgrade-to-2-0-HDMI-only-if-you/m-p/181061#M233

Panasonic claims to make HDMI 2.0 chips that can process both 10 and 12 bit color as well as having the full 18.3 Gbit bandwidth. Their 65" 4k set supposedly has had the chip since it's release. Seems there is more than 1 HDMI 2.0 spec which may explain why some details of the spec haven't been made public unless you are willing to pay a fee to the HDMI org. When Sony made the 2.0 upgrade announcement an Australian site called it 2.0b. If you check the spec details for Sony's top of the line 950B sets you will find that they accept 4k 60p with only 4:2:0 color space at 8 bits and 10.2 Gbit. Nothing higher. 2014 is a year of buyer beware IMO regarding HDMI 2.0.
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post #294 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 01:47 PM
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The Vizio P is not scheduled to release until August and the R until several months after that - maybe it is no coincidence...

-fafrd

Well there goes the Value Electronics shootout for the Vizio Reference Series this year... If the 65" even sees the light of day in 2014. (Vizio did announce and miss 2013 dates for their last line of 4K TVs)

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/vizio-2013-hdtv-4k-m-series-xvt/
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post #295 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 02:04 PM
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... If you check the spec details for Sony's top of the line 950B sets you will find that they accept 4k 60p with only 4:2:0 color space at 8 bits and 10.2 Gbit. Nothing higher. 2014 is a year of buyer beware IMO regarding HDMI 2.0.

Personally I want to see how it looks. There are always new standards and better technologies that are being developed. At some point you have to step up and deliver the best product you can. Of course if some of these standards take off Sony may offer an upgrade like they did for their 2013 4K TVs.
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post #296 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

The Vizio P is not scheduled to release until August and the R until several months after that - maybe it is no coincidence...

-fafrd

Well there goes the Value Electronics shootout for the Vizio Reference Series this year... If the 65" even sees the light of day in 2014. (Vizio did announce and miss 2013 dates for their last line of 4K TVs)

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/vizio-2013-hdtv-4k-m-series-xvt/

Thanks for that link. If I understand correctly, it means that Vizio introduced the M Series only last year and also announced the XVT (which is now the P-Series) in three screen sizes (55", 65", 70") which they never delivered.

They never released pricing for the XVT just as they have not yet released pricing for the Reference Series in 2014.

They've proven an ability to introduce one new Series a year, so I'm pretty confident that the P Series (for which they have released pricing) will materialize in 2014 (currently rumored to emerge in August). And it will have 5 screen sizes and not just the three they announced for the XVT in 2013 (50", 55", 60", 65", 70").

But I'm now much more skeptical that the Reference Series will materialize in 2014 and see it much more likely that it will be released as a product in 2015...

They did reduce their target from 3 screen sizes to only 1 (I've never taken the 120" R Series seriously as a 2014 product), so maybe they have learned something from the failed attempt to introduce a second new product lineup in 2013 and there remains a chance that the 65" Reference Series emerges before Black Friday, but it's a crap-shoot and I am not going to bet on it.

The silver lining is that when the Reference Series finally materializes in 2015 as a real product, it will probably be a full lineup including more screen sizes, and capability related to HDR will hopefully have been truly standardized so that it will be more real and future-proof...


-fafrd

p.s. and you are right, the first shootout for the 65" Reference Series will be 2015 (assuming they can release it before May, which is doubtful if they don't get it out by the end of this year). It looks like the best they will have for this years VE shootout will be the 2014 M-Series...
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post #297 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

If you check the spec details for Sony's top of the line 950B sets you will find that they accept 4k 60p with only 4:2:0 color space at 8 bits and 10.2 Gbit. Nothing higher. 2014 is a year of buyer beware IMO regarding HDMI 2.0.

Yep, it appears that the 2014 Sony UHD sets are no more equipped for full-fat HDMI 2.0 than the 2013 series is. HDCP 2.2 isn't a big deal either because all newer 2013 builds have it built in. The only thing that the 2013 sets are lacking is HEVC, but standalone streamers/4K BD players will take care of that in the years to come.
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post #298 of 583 Old 02-15-2014, 03:14 PM
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Its not like we will be getting much 60p 4K content anyway.

...anytime soon. I suppose the question is for $8K (for the 65"er), how 'future-proof' do you expect to be...

-fafrd
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post #299 of 583 Old 02-16-2014, 09:33 AM
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post #300 of 583 Old 02-16-2014, 02:28 PM
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^^^ That's true, FALD technology is old, it is already being replaced with OLED.
Do you know how bad the OLED burn in is? Again, is it as bad as Plasma when they first came out. This is just like Plasma when they first showed up, nobody wanted to talk about their burn in problem.
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