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post #361 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 01:49 PM
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I had the HX950 for a couple days but exchanged it for the w900a because while it had great blacks, the colors were dull in comparison to my plasmas and the w900a.
So you went from FALD LED to EDGE LED? I am wondering if you had a bad set? Colors on FALD LED were never in question with the so called experts.
One expert on cnet said the blacks on the 950 were better on it then any other TV on the markets at that time including Plasma!
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post #362 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 01:55 PM
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So you went from FALD LED to EDGE LED? I am wondering if you had a bad set? Colors on FALD LED were never in question with the so called experts.

While FALD is better on paper, it does not always equate to being better. There are many factors that make up a good picture. The w900a has much more depth to the picture than the hx950, despite not having a comparable black level. The colors are not terrible on the hx950, but they are not anything like the w900a, or a good plasma.
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post #363 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 02:04 PM
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So you went from FALD LED to EDGE LED? I am wondering if you had a bad set? Colors on FALD LED were never in question with the so called experts.

While FALD is better on paper, it does not always equate to being better. There are many factors that make up a good picture. The w900a has much more depth to the picture than the hx950, despite not having a comparable black level. The colors are not terrible on the hx950, but they are not anything like the w900a, or a good plasma.

Is there a fundamental technical reason underlying that conclusion? For example the w900a used the Sony 'Triluminous' backlight and the hx950 just used a white LED backlight???

From the color filter and LCD perspective, it is hard to understand why there should be a significant difference in the quality of the colors (unless there was some problem with your hx950), so the only thing I can think of is that there may be a difference in the quality of the light being fed into the LCD from the backlight...

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post #364 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 02:19 PM
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I had the HX950 for a couple days but exchanged it for the w900a because while it had great blacks, the colors were dull in comparison to my plasmas and the w900a.

I suspect you didn't have it ISF'd. That model got generally excellent reviews for color accuracy. Off-axis viewing was criticized, but colors no.
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post #365 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 02:21 PM
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Is there a fundamental technical reason underlying that conclusion? For example the w900a used the Sony 'Triluminous' backlight and the hx950 just used a white LED backlight???

From the color filter and LCD perspective, it is hard to understand why there should be a significant difference in the quality of the colors (unless there was some problem with your hx950), so the only thing I can think of is that there may be a difference in the quality of the light being fed into the LCD from the backlight...

-fafrd

The problem was he either didn't have it properly adjusted or never bothered to have it ISF'd. There was nothing ever wrong with the colors on that set. In fact, if he states the colors are 'dull' compared to his plasma, I'd bet there's a good chance the colors on his plasma are not properly adjusted. wink.gif
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post #366 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 02:34 PM
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Is there a fundamental technical reason underlying that conclusion? For example the w900a used the Sony 'Triluminous' backlight and the hx950 just used a white LED backlight???

From the color filter and LCD perspective, it is hard to understand why there should be a significant difference in the quality of the colors (unless there was some problem with your hx950), so the only thing I can think of is that there may be a difference in the quality of the light being fed into the LCD from the backlight...

-fafrd

The problem was he either didn't have it properly adjusted or never bothered to have it ISF'd. There was nothing ever wrong with the colors on that set. In fact, if he states the colors are 'dull' compared to his plasma, I'd bet there's a good chance the colors on his plasma are not properly adjusted. wink.gif

I wonder how may relatively high-quality TVs get returned because they arrived far out of calibration from the factory and never got properly calibrated once home?

In the end, it's really the fault of the manufacturers - they ought to be able to deliver something that is in the ballpark of ISF, even if it is impossible to deliver spot-on out of the factory...

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post #367 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 02:49 PM
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Fafrd, I think that issue has gotten much better. In fact some displays, my Samsung F8500 for example, are really close to a good ISF calibration with the proper movie settings dialed in. I'm not even talking about using the color management system, but rather just putting it in Movie mode as opposed to Vivid or some other nonsensical setting.

I had that same display ISF'd and I can tell you many would not see much of a difference. Improvements yes, day & night no. The Samsung is not alone in this ability.
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post #368 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 03:29 PM
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The 900 used Quantum Dots and I don't know if the 950 did but I can't see paying so much more for the 950 and the Quantum Dots technology being left out of the 950.
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post #369 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 09:34 PM
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Should the 85" actually be $25k, what do you expect dealer price to be? Street?
These will probably be in super short supply and hard to get, I bet $22K.
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post #370 of 583 Old 02-22-2014, 09:59 PM
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The problem was he either didn't have it properly adjusted or never bothered to have it ISF'd. There was nothing ever wrong with the colors on that set. In fact, if he states the colors are 'dull' compared to his plasma, I'd bet there's a good chance the colors on his plasma are not properly adjusted. wink.gif

Ken, be careful with making assumptions wink.gif The colors on the hx950 are not bad in any sense, and I never said anything was "wrong" with them. I just said that in comparison to the w900a they look flat. You can have accurate color and have a flat looking picture. I did not do an extensive calibration on the hx950, but I can tell you it will not compare to the depth of the w900a. For reference, I only paid $2200 for the HX950, and I exchanged it for the $2700 (at the time) w900a. The difference is within the backlight, and the quality of the LCD panel. The panel in the w900a is of much higher quality than the HX950. My plasma's are calibrated. Now, I do prefer an extended color gamut over REC709, which should not be called "proper". It is old news, and soon higher color gamuts will be "proper". Triluminous tech is no gimmick, and it will give Sony an edge over other brands who stick with traditional BLU's.
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post #371 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 07:07 AM
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Ken, be careful with making assumptions wink.gif The colors on the hx950 are not bad in any sense, and I never said anything was "wrong" with them. I just said that in comparison to the w900a they look flat. You can have accurate color and have a flat looking picture. I did not do an extensive calibration on the hx950, but I can tell you it will not compare to the depth of the w900a. For reference, I only paid $2200 for the HX950, and I exchanged it for the $2700 (at the time) w900a. The difference is within the backlight, and the quality of the LCD panel. The panel in the w900a is of much higher quality than the HX950. My plasma's are calibrated. Now, I do prefer an extended color gamut over REC709, which should not be called "proper". It is old news, and soon higher color gamuts will be "proper". Triluminous tech is no gimmick, and it will give Sony an edge over other brands who stick with traditional BLU's.
My FALD LCD is a 10 bit panel stuck in a rec 709 world! This is until REC 2020 is used in video content down the line! One of the reason's manufacture's went back to 8 bit panels is REC 709 was used as the video standard, cheaper to make a 8 bit panel and there is no gain with REC 709 as the standard.
their is the big debate on 4K content not being available in the market and this was the same when 1080p came out no content. REC 2020 has to be implemented in the video before the new TV'S can really be measured.
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post #372 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 09:25 AM
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Ken, be careful with making assumptions wink.gif The colors on the hx950 are not bad in any sense, and I never said anything was "wrong" with them. I just said that in comparison to the w900a they look flat. You can have accurate color and have a flat looking picture. I did not do an extensive calibration on the hx950, but I can tell you it will not compare to the depth of the w900a. For reference, I only paid $2200 for the HX950, and I exchanged it for the $2700 (at the time) w900a. The difference is within the backlight, and the quality of the LCD panel. The panel in the w900a is of much higher quality than the HX950. My plasma's are calibrated. Now, I do prefer an extended color gamut over REC709, which should not be called "proper". It is old news, and soon higher color gamuts will be "proper". Triluminous tech is no gimmick, and it will give Sony an edge over other brands who stick with traditional BLU's.

But that's my point, if your color is accurate, there's nothing wrong with your colors. If your picture is 'flat', that's not a color issue, it's a contrast issue. However, even there, I can't see calling the 950's picture 'flat'. I never owned it, but I have seen it many times. I did own the 929 and that picture also produced accurate colors, but there again, the contrast ratio was sufficient with its FALD, to provide plenty of punch. What I find odd with your comparison is that you're saying the FALD 950 had a flatter picture than the edge lit 900a. I just find that really odd.

This may really come down to a preference thing. You may prefer a picture that I might call 'over the top' and you might call my F8500 or Sharp Elite picture 'flat'. As long as your happy with your picture, that's all that counts. smile.gif
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post #373 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* 

Ken, be careful with making assumptions wink.gif The colors on the hx950 are not bad in any sense, and I never said anything was "wrong" with them. I just said that in comparison to the w900a they look flat. You can have accurate color and have a flat looking picture. I did not do an extensive calibration on the hx950, but I can tell you it will not compare to the depth of the w900a. For reference, I only paid $2200 for the HX950, and I exchanged it for the $2700 (at the time) w900a. The difference is within the backlight, and the quality of the LCD panel. The panel in the w900a is of much higher quality than the HX950. My plasma's are calibrated. Now, I do prefer an extended color gamut over REC709, which should not be called "proper". It is old news, and soon higher color gamuts will be "proper". Triluminous tech is no gimmick, and it will give Sony an edge over other brands who stick with traditional BLU's.

The HX950 was at the VA Shootout. There was no mentioning of ''a flat looking picture''. I haven't seen such comment in reviews either. I also cannot recall comments praising the W900A's ''depth''. What surprised me was that there were no Sony Triluminos pro's and con's vs. the blue LEDs with yellow coating comments which suggests that there is no difference at all. There might be some good old fashion PLACEDO going on here rolleyes.gif btw there is a good chance that there will be no 2014 Triluminos Sony's.
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post #374 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 09:34 AM
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Speaking of 8bit vs 10 bit, this was a discussion in another forum regarding cameras that I found interesting. The point was that some people make more of the gains going from 8 bit to 10 bit than may be warranted. 10 bit color is particularly useful in post-production work when editing and re-editing is necessary since it holds up better. But it has little benefit if all you do is shoot the video and do simple edits.

To illustrate the point, take this simple quiz by properly arranging the color tiles and see how you score. Now after you've completed this test with the almost certainty that you'll make mistakes (almost everyone does), you'll be surprised to know that this test is simply based on colors that are no more than 7-8 bits. IOW the hue changes from tile to tile represent no more than what you'd get with 7-8 bit color.

So if you don't score perfectly with this test, it merely shows that you can't even properly differentiate colors that are no more than 7-8 bits. I scored an 8 and that was better than most. My wife scored a 7. Scores in the 20s are not unusual and it does not mean you're color blind. wink.gif

Have fun!

http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?pageid=77&lang=en
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post #375 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 09:43 AM
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btw there is a good chance that there will be no 2014 Triluminos Sony's.

According to the current information, all 2014 models from the W950B and up are Triluminos.
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post #376 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 10:02 AM
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My FALD LCD is a 10 bit panel stuck in a rec 709 world! This is until REC 2020 is used in video content down the line!

Current LCD-based TVs do not meet Rec 2020 specifications, especially the defined color space ("System colorimetry"). For example the Vizio Reference series claims to be able to cover about 80% of the Rec 2020 color space. If consumer content was mastered as Rec 2020, then current TVs would likely under-saturate colors, since the TVs cannot reproduce the color space. It's possible that maybe the content could be scaled to meet available color space, but really it's all just a guessing game from a consumer perspective at this point for what might happen with future content. Personally I consider it unlikely that content would be mastered for Rec 2020 any time soon, since currently OLED TVs are not really mass-market products and other TVs are essentially incompatible.
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post #377 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 10:32 AM
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What i meant was is that it is unclear if 2014 Sony's use Quantum Dots since Sony does not mentions ''Color IQ" anymore.

Just look at the ''Color IQ'' Facebook page. No mentioning of 2014 Sony's..
https://www.facebook.com/GetColorIQ
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post #378 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 11:51 AM
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The problem was he either didn't have it properly adjusted or never bothered to have it ISF'd. There was nothing ever wrong with the colors on that set. In fact, if he states the colors are 'dull' compared to his plasma, I'd bet there's a good chance the colors on his plasma are not properly adjusted. wink.gif

Ken, be careful with making assumptions wink.gif The colors on the hx950 are not bad in any sense, and I never said anything was "wrong" with them. I just said that in comparison to the w900a they look flat. You can have accurate color and have a flat looking picture. I did not do an extensive calibration on the hx950, but I can tell you it will not compare to the depth of the w900a. For reference, I only paid $2200 for the HX950, and I exchanged it for the $2700 (at the time) w900a. The difference is within the backlight, and the quality of the LCD panel. The panel in the w900a is of much higher quality than the HX950. My plasma's are calibrated. Now, I do prefer an extended color gamut over REC709, which should not be called "proper". It is old news, and soon higher color gamuts will be "proper". Triluminous tech is no gimmick, and it will give Sony an edge over other brands who stick with traditional BLU's.


I have to agree with you UFO. The colors on my HX850 do look flat compared to the W900 and that's because of the Triluminous tech that Sony is using. The colors on my set are as accurate as can be but they don't have that punch that the W9 has. I'll be getting my W9 hopefully this week from Sony and in the comfort of my own home I will be really able to study it to see what its really like. You really cant judge it by looking at it at a BB ect. I have also heard Sony has used what is called a Black Panel in the W9 which gives off excellent black levels. All I know is I am really looking forward to getting my W9 and checking it out myself first hand. Going from a 46 to a 55inch set is going to be like night and day. biggrin.gif

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post #379 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 12:29 PM
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Speaking of 8bit vs 10 bit, this was a discussion in another forum regarding cameras that I found interesting. The point was that some people make more of the gains going from 8 bit to 10 bit than may be warranted. 10 bit color is particularly useful in post-production work when editing and re-editing is necessary since it holds up better. But it has little benefit if all you do is shoot the video and do simple edits.

To illustrate the point, take this simple quiz by properly arranging the color tiles and see how you score. Now after you've completed this test with the almost certainty that you'll make mistakes (almost everyone does), you'll be surprised to know that this test is simply based on colors that are no more than 7-8 bits. IOW the hue changes from tile to tile represent no more than what you'd get with 7-8 bit color.

So if you don't score perfectly with this test, it merely shows that you can't even properly differentiate colors that are no more than 7-8 bits. I scored an 8 and that was better than most. My wife scored a 7. Scores in the 20s are not unusual and it does not mean you're color blind. wink.gif

Have fun!

http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?pageid=77&lang=en

I think the only real advantage of 10-bit color versus 8-bit color amounts to banding. With only 8 bits, it is impossible not to notice banding boundaries between wide stripes of the same color that are 1/256th apart in intensity or hue.

With 10bit color, each of those same color stripes would only by 1/4 as wide geometrically and would only have 1/4 of the change in intensity or hue. Unsure if the banding boundaries with 10 bits would still be noticeable or not, but they are certain to be less noticeable than with only 8 bits...

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post #380 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 02:39 PM
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Here is a article on REC.709 and REC..2020 one of the difference is 16 million versus 1 billion.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1366264710
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post #381 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 03:22 PM
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Here is a article on REC.709 and REC..2020 one of the difference is 16 million versus 1 billion.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1366264710

Thanks for the link. Makes it sound like all of these UHD TVs may end up being ahead of the curve (though if the only FALD panels are 4K, the extra resolution and shadow detail are probably sufficient reason to take the plunge, even if compatibility with the future UHD standard that emerges proves to be a problem...

-fafrd
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post #382 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 04:06 PM
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Thanks for the link. Makes it sound like all of these UHD TVs may end up being ahead of the curve (though if the only FALD panels are 4K, the extra resolution and shadow detail are probably sufficient reason to take the plunge, even if compatibility with the future UHD standard that emerges proves to be a problem...

-fafrd
The REC 2020 standard goes up to 12 bit and can handle 8K 36 billion colors.
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post #383 of 583 Old 02-23-2014, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the link. Makes it sound like all of these UHD TVs may end up being ahead of the curve (though if the only FALD panels are 4K, the extra resolution and shadow detail are probably sufficient reason to take the plunge, even if compatibility with the future UHD standard that emerges proves to be a problem...

-fafrd
The REC 2020 standard goes up to 12 bit and can handle 8K 36 billion colors.

From what I understand, the 12-bits-per-color is less critical than the expanded rec.2020 color 'triangle'

If rec.709 was expanded from 8 bits to 10 bits or 12 bits, there would also be 38 billion colors (12 bits), but those colors would all be within the same rec.709 color triangle that we calibrate to. And those 10-bit or 12-bit colors could always be 'rounded down' to the nearest 8-bit color within the rec.709 color triangle, so the image would look similar color-wise, but just not as smooth...

Since rec.2020 expands the color triangle significantly (look at the 'COLORS' section of the 'flatpanelshd' article you pointed us to), any the rec.2020 colors that fall outside the rec.709 color triangle (but within the rec.2020 color triangle), cannot be represented by rec.709, even if the number of pits per color were expanded from 8-bit to 12-bit...

Bits of precision is important, especially for high dynamic range (high contrast with good shadow detail with little/no banding), but I believe that 'expanded-color-gamut' refers at least as much (if not more) to the increased color triangle of rec.2020 and all of the colors that cannot be represented by rec.709, even if the bits of precision were increased so that there were a full 38 billion colors available within the smaller rec.709 color triangle...

-fafrd
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post #384 of 583 Old 02-25-2014, 08:42 AM
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But that's my point, if your color is accurate, there's nothing wrong with your colors. If your picture is 'flat', that's not a color issue, it's a contrast issue. However, even there, I can't see calling the 950's picture 'flat'. I never owned it, but I have seen it many times. I did own the 929 and that picture also produced accurate colors, but there again, the contrast ratio was sufficient with its FALD, to provide plenty of punch. What I find odd with your comparison is that you're saying the FALD 950 had a flatter picture than the edge lit 900a. I just find that really odd.
No question about that, I would take the 950 over the900A any day...... Of course that is not an option.
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post #385 of 583 Old 02-25-2014, 11:50 PM
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Understood. With that said, I just don't see myself going for a 65" 4K display. For the room I'm putting it in, it's just too small to appreciate the 4K goodness. If I'm buying 4K, I want to really see the 4K and cutting the furniture distance by 40-50% just isn't happening. wink.gif

Mark, did you see the 79" Sony or 78" Samsung? I suspect the lights on the floor were too bright to really get a feel for how their edge lit solutions looked in terms of black levels.

I missed these posts... So let me get responses out now....

Like you, I'm not moving my furniture. I think, though, I'd probably enjoy a 65" 4K. I'd enjoy a 70" 4K more. And an 80" 4K that much more.

The Sony I saw. I couldn't render any meaningful opinion from the demo at CES though. It was out in the open. The Samsung was similar... I noticed it was there but never even bothered to look at it.
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Thanks (and I agree, $5K or less would start being reasonable for the 65" 950B.

And assuming the 950B does end up being available for $5K, what is the corresponding price you believe Vizio will need to be offering for the 65" Reference Series to have any chance of winning customers from Sony?

That's a fascinating question.

If the Sony was $5K, the "correct" price for the Vizio is probably $4K. Too low and you signal, "this isn't very good" and so people reject you on the grounds that it can't be as good as the Sony. Too close in price and people think, "I oughtta get the Sony, it's just $500 more."

So you are left with a choice there and the answer is "somewhere between $3500 and 4000" but I think it's $4000....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #386 of 583 Old 02-26-2014, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Thanks (and I agree, $5K or less would start being reasonable for the 65" 950B.

And assuming the 950B does end up being available for $5K, what is the corresponding price you believe Vizio will need to be offering for the 65" Reference Series to have any chance of winning customers from Sony?

That's a fascinating question.

If the Sony was $5K, the "correct" price for the Vizio is probably $4K. Too low and you signal, "this isn't very good" and so people reject you on the grounds that it can't be as good as the Sony. Too close in price and people think, "I oughtta get the Sony, it's just $500 more."

So you are left with a choice there and the answer is "somewhere between $3500 and 4000" but I think it's $4000....

Well, we've had lot's of back and forth on this question since CES, but now that the dust has cleared, it seems out positions are pretty well aligned. Assuming Sony ends up selling the 65" 950B for $5K, I agree with you that the appropriate price range for Vizio to have any hope of winning business from Sony with the 65" Reference Series is $3500-4000...

Expecting other flagship UHD panels from Toshiba and Panasonic targeting prices below $5K (in the mid $4s), I'm hoping that Vizio is smart and ends up being aggressive enough to come closer to the $3500 level, but in any case I think we can put this subject to rest awaiting the pricing Vizio finally announces (hopefully by mid-year biggrin.gif )

-fafrd
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post #387 of 583 Old 02-27-2014, 10:10 AM
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I took measurements and I can fit either the 55” Sony XBR-55X900B or the 65” Sony XBR-65X850B in my TV cabinet.

I would prefer to have the largest screen possible but what would I be giving up going with the 850B over the 900B other than the speakers (Magnetic Fluid speakers)?


From looking at the feature list:

X900B
X-tended Dynamic Range
Motionflow 960 / 800


X850B
Motionflow 240 / 200

I don't know what either are.
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post #388 of 583 Old 02-27-2014, 10:31 AM
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Has a release date been announced for these TVs?

If not, when does Sony release TVs historically?

I have a Sony KSD-60A3000 SXRD RPTV that just got the green blob, so I'm in the market. But the 30fps HDMI ports on the current 4k TVs is pretty limiting when you are thinking about eventually hooking up a PC with a 4k capable video card to the TV.

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post #389 of 583 Old 02-27-2014, 12:58 PM
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The first review for the 2014 Sony w8 series is up. The verdict? Read for yourself: http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-kdl-50w829_TV_review#tr-review-summary biggrin.gif
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post #390 of 583 Old 02-27-2014, 01:23 PM
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The first review for the 2014 Sony w8 series is up. The verdict? Read for yourself: http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-kdl-50w829_TV_review#tr-review-summary biggrin.gif

One would assume that this is the same model as the 50W800B here in the U.S.. Not a bad review for an entry level TV..
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