Toshiba UHDTVs at CES: Surprisingly Great Image Quality - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 54 Old 03-23-2014, 03:13 PM
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There is still zero evidence that the price drops are because of one company named Vizio.

 

The Japanese major players are at a nasty crossroad right now.  They may well have been overshooting at first on purpose just to do massive price slashes once they got a handle on what the discount brands (primarily Chinese) were offering.

 

I remember some shock floating around these parts at the price slashing that Sony did last year to their flagship line.  I was wondering at the time if this was going to be a common M.O.  That was before the Vizio-P and -R were announced.

 

It's too early to say that this is in any way because of Vizio or that Vizio is the primary motivator for anything.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #32 of 54 Old 03-23-2014, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

There is still zero evidence that the price drops are because of one company named Vizio.

The Japanese major players are at a nasty crossroad right now.  They may well have been overshooting at first on purpose just to do massive price slashes once they got a handle on what the discount brands (primarily Chinese) were offering.

I remember some shock floating around these parts at the price slashing that Sony did last year to their flagship line.  I was wondering at the time if this was going to be a common M.O.  That was before the Vizio-P and -R were announced.

It's too early to say that this is in any way because of Vizio or that Vizio is the primary motivator for anything.

Can't argue with that last statement.

On the other hand, I have put forward a theory that this year is different than last and there is at least one piece of evidence supporting that view:

The Sharp price slashing of 35% off of MSRP at launch is unprecedented, I believe.

I believe the Toshiba has come out priced lower than anyone (including them) expected before CES as well, but we'll never have a way of proving that one way or the other.

And there will be a future datapoint that I suspect will be further supportive evidence that 2014 is not 'business as usual' in the flat panel TV world: Sony's usual MO is to price high and then discount down to barely affordable levels late in the year. With the 65" X950B priced at $8000, it looks like 2014 is business as usual from Sony's point of view. I didn't track their pricing on the 65" 900a too closely last year, but my sense is that discounting unfolded slowly ultimately reaching a level of 35% by Black Friday. The MSRP was $7000 and current street price is $4500.

Business-as-usual would mean the 65" X950B having a street price of about $5200 reached just before Black Friday, but I have a suspicion that is not going to fly this year. So if Sony drops their drawers more quickly and/or more deeply on the X950B, I would count that as a second objective piece of evidence that this year is different than last. I will go ahead and forecast discounts on the X950B of at least 40% and perhaps as much as 45% by year-end.

And finally, in terms of 'the Chinese discount brands, they remain an inconsequential slice of the US high-end market. Vizio is number 2 in the US overall flat panel TV market behind only Samsung. And this year, they have clearly signaled an intention to gain share in the high-end of the US market with both the P Series and R Series.

While I am sure that the low-cost Chinese discount brands provide a backdrop of this trend continuing in the future, as far as 2014 pricing, I can't believe you seriously believe the pricing of Hisense, TCL and Seiko has had more of an impact on Japanese pricing decisions for the US market than Vizio.
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post #33 of 54 Old 03-24-2014, 12:15 PM
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p.s. just saw this set available online for $1200, so I'd say it's priced competitively against the Vizio M (33%/$300 premium)

This worries me.
The super low price makes me think the number of zones will be low.

This TV should be out soon though, hope to get calibrated results.
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post #34 of 54 Old 03-24-2014, 01:10 PM
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Big flaw in the price logic here I think. Vizio panels aren't available for sale in the UK but we still see the same discounting on all the other brands mentioned despite this. I suspect it's more to do with wanting to shift stock fast because of new updated 4k models coming on stream.
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post #35 of 54 Old 03-24-2014, 03:06 PM
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Big flaw in the price logic here I think. Vizio panels aren't available for sale in the UK but we still see the same discounting on all the other brands mentioned despite this. I suspect it's more to do with wanting to shift stock fast because of new updated 4k models coming on stream.

Has the L7400U been available for some time in the UK?

They are just showing up here (within 1-2 weeks) so it is hard to see why Toshiba would want to rotate stock on a brand new TV that hasn't even been introduced to the market yet.

Also, it would surprise me that there are customers for either the L7400U or the L9400U - 55" versus 65", 1080p versus 4K - I expect the 65" L9400U to be priced about 2X the L7400U.

But you raise a good point about Vizio not being in the UK - are there any comparable panels available in the UK at this price point?

Fundamentally, a lower price is going to drive increased sales, so maybe once Toshiba figured out the price they would need to offer in order to win market share in the US, they decided to drive increased sales volumes worldwide with similar aggressive pricing.

Here in the US, only the Vizio M and P look like they may offer a higher performance / price ratio than the L7400U (at 55"). Over in the UK, what other 55" panels have a pricepoint similar to the L7400U and may match it in terms of PQ (FALD)???
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post #36 of 54 Old 03-24-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyMacDonald View Post

Big flaw in the price logic here I think. Vizio panels aren't available for sale in the UK but we still see the same discounting on all the other brands mentioned despite this. I suspect it's more to do with wanting to shift stock fast because of new updated 4k models coming on stream.

 

That's what I've been getting at.  There seems to be a push to place Vizio at the front of all chains of causality and I don't see it being quite that much a fait accompli.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #37 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Has the L7400U been available for some time in the UK?

They are just showing up here (within 1-2 weeks) so it is hard to see why Toshiba would want to rotate stock on a brand new TV that hasn't even been introduced to the market yet.

Also, it would surprise me that there are customers for either the L7400U or the L9400U - 55" versus 65", 1080p versus 4K - I expect the 65" L9400U to be priced about 2X the L7400U.

But you raise a good point about Vizio not being in the UK - are there any comparable panels available in the UK at this price point?

Fundamentally, a lower price is going to drive increased sales, so maybe once Toshiba figured out the price they would need to offer in order to win market share in the US, they decided to drive increased sales volumes worldwide with similar aggressive pricing.

Here in the US, only the Vizio M and P look like they may offer a higher performance / price ratio than the L7400U (at 55"). Over in the UK, what other 55" panels have a pricepoint similar to the L7400U and may match it in terms of PQ (FALD)???

I can't see the L7400U as being available here. The 4k Toshiba's we have are 65" Toshiba 65L9363 LED 4K Ultra (£500 discount) & 58" Toshiba 58L9363 LED 4K (£700 discount). A lot of the sets for sale now are at the reduced price permanently now as they have been discounted for so long that EU consumer law doesn't allow a discount to be shown if a price has been shown discounted for longer than a set period of time.

The Panasonic AX600 series are on sale at the moment but I think we get the AX800 series in a couple of months and the AX900 series later in the autumn.

The Panasonic's are the only ones that interest me at the moment as they have HDMI 2 and display port so I can use them as a monitor for my computer. There is almost unlimited 4k games content.

Until I'm convinced about the black levels being as good, or preferably better, and comparable viewing angles, I don't intend to replace my Kuro for films and TV although I feel I should as I seem to have had mine forever. There seems to be no clear outright successor to the Kuro reading all the reviews despite having £20k budget for a new panel.
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post #38 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 05:39 AM
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Anyone else like this Toshiba situation as much as I do?  I love it when a forgotten underdog comes out swinging...


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #39 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 05:42 AM
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But you raise a good point about Vizio not being in the UK - are there any comparable panels available in the UK at this??
Isn't Philips Europe's major tier 2 brand that flirts with tier 1 status? That or They are full tier 1, I hear a lot of good things about them and a actually would like it if they were here
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post #40 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 05:55 AM
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Isn't Philips Europe's major tier 2 brand that flirts with tier 1 status? That or They are full tier 1, I hear a lot of good things about them and a actually would like it if they were here
Philips TV is sold . Only the name remains..

http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/standard/news/press/2014/20140120-Philips-to-transfer-remaining-30-percent-stake-in-television-joint-venture-TP-Vision-to-TPV.wpd#.UzF8aI1OVEY
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post #41 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 06:03 AM
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Oh another in a line of lives on in name only like zenith & magnvox which ironically magnvox is owned by Philips, I wonder if that went with the Philips sale
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post #42 of 54 Old 03-25-2014, 12:42 PM
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Anyone else like this Toshiba situation as much as I do?  I love it when a forgotten underdog comes out swinging...

+1

And if you read my early posts following CES, you will see that I have been as excited about the Toshiba Radiance as I have been about the Vizio Reference. Toshiba has just been much more in stealth mode than Vizio who has at least launched the E-Series and priced everything but the R, so there has been far less to talk about when it comes to Toshiba.

The big question with Toshiba has been where they would price the Radiance and I see the price on the L7400U to be an indication that they intend to be very aggressive (almost Vizio-like biggrin.gif).

If the 65" Toshiba L9400U ends up being priced right around the midpoint of the $2200 for the 65" Vizio P and the as-yet-unpriced 65" Vizio R, that would be a tough call to make and it would probably come down to PQ for me:

-if they all look good and about the same, I'd go for the P
-if the P looks noticeable worse than the L9400U and the R, I lean towards the Toshiba (unless it was priced higher than the R)
-if the Reference Series with its 384 local dimming zones is noticeably better than both other panels, I'd go for the R.

p.s. I still haven't given up on Panasonic to come to their senses with the AX900.

That 128 dimming zone FALD LED/LCD is supposed to be 'as good' as the ZT60. The 65" ZT60 was priced at $3K early this year (I know because I bought one at that price biggrin.gif). If the 65" AX900 is priced at $3000 that would be interesting and I would probably consider that over the 65" 64-zone P Series priced 27% less ($800).

Unfortunately, the fact that the 58" AX800 has an MSRP of $3800 doesn't leave too much reason for optimism, but hope springs eternal...
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post #43 of 54 Old 03-29-2014, 10:21 PM
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Toshiba has the user's guide for the 55L7400U up on their site: http://support.toshiba.com/support/staticContentDetail?contentId=4005194&isFromTOCLink=false

Unfortunately, it's a 60Hz panel... From page 101:
"ClearScan™ 240Hz uses both frame interpolation technology and advanced backlight control with image synchronization to quadruple the TV refresh rate for an even clearer fast motion video."
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post #44 of 54 Old 03-30-2014, 06:54 AM
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For all the people in this thread interested in pricing pressure, you might find this article interesting. In short, global tv sales have been dropping for a couple of a years now and 2014 is shaping up to be the biggest drop in sales ever -- 11% less than 2013.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/24/tv_sales_dropping/

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post #45 of 54 Old 04-01-2014, 07:45 AM
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I'm quite excited for the Toshiba L7400 - finally a 1080p with FALD! Also, smaller screen sizes! Yes, I know this puts me in a minority but my girlfriend won't tolerate massive (>50") TVs in a small New York apartment.
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post #46 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 07:04 AM
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post #47 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandiego View Post

Toshiba has the user's guide for the 55L7400U up on their site: http://support.toshiba.com/support/staticContentDetail?contentId=4005194&isFromTOCLink=false

Unfortunately, it's a 60Hz panel... From page 101:
"ClearScan™ 240Hz uses both frame interpolation technology and advanced backlight control with image synchronization to quadruple the TV refresh rate for an even clearer fast motion video."

I just posted a correction on this in the L7400U thread.

The panel has a 120Hz panel. Motion interpolation takes a 60Hz source and turns it into a 120Hz video stream which can only be used by the panel if it can refresh at 120Hz. This reduces motion blur by 50% (120Hz effective refresh rate).

In addition, a 2-segment scanning backlight will further reduce pixel ON time by 50% (along with brightness) to provide a 75% reduction in motion blur and an effective refresh rate of 240Hz (pixel ON time of only 4.2ms).

The bone-headed reference in the user manual to 'quadruple TV refresh rate' must be a reference to the frame rate of the incoming video signal (60fps) and not the native refresh rate of the LCD panel.

Frame interpolation does nothing if the native refresh rate of the panel matches the frame rate of the incoming video stream.
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post #48 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 07:34 PM
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I just posted a correction on this in the L7400U thread.

The panel has a 120Hz panel. Motion interpolation takes a 60Hz source and turns it into a 120Hz video stream which can only be used by the panel if it can refresh at 120Hz. This reduces motion blur by 50% (120Hz effective refresh rate).

In addition, a 2-segment scanning backlight will further reduce pixel ON time by 50% (along with brightness) to provide a 75% reduction in motion blur and an effective refresh rate of 240Hz (pixel ON time of only 4.2ms).

The bone-headed reference in the user manual to 'quadruple TV refresh rate' must be a reference to the frame rate of the incoming video signal (60fps) and not the native refresh rate of the LCD panel.

Frame interpolation does nothing if the native refresh rate of the panel matches the frame rate of the incoming video stream.

Good catch. My interest in the L7400U has been renewed smile.gif And thanks for pointing out that there is now a thread just for this series!
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post #49 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 07:43 PM
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My understanding is that all LCD/LED UHD panels have a native frame rate of 120Hz. 

 

They can scan or back flash to help improve motion resolution and of course the marketing guys can then advertise things like "Clear Motion or whatever buzz words they dream of" rate of 240Hz. 

 

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post #50 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

Review of Toshiba 65L9300U:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/toshiba-65l9300u-4k-hdtv-review,3768.html

Are these the Toshiba FALD sets?

Tomshardware reviewed the L9300 & the L7300
But I thought the FALD sets were listed as the L9400 & the L7400?

In fact, I don't see the don't see these sets being mentioned anywhere here in their schedule release.
http://www.cnet.com/news/toshiba-ces-2014-tvs-full-array-local-dimming-4k-and-clouds/


Are they just a European variation?

Either way, they seem like a disappointment.
Looks like they offer the same black levels & contrast as the Samsung F8500 plasma, which is nice & a step up from regular VA panel LCDs, but don't touch the Pioneer Elite & Panasonic ZT lines.
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post #51 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

My understanding is that all LCD/LED UHD panels have a native frame rate of 120Hz. 

They can scan or back flash to help improve motion resolution and of course the marketing guys can then advertise things like "Clear Motion or whatever buzz words they dream of" rate of 240Hz. 

Greg

The L7400U is not UHD - it is only HD (1080p).

The Toshiba L9400U is UHD, and so it is almost certain to be 120Hz native refresh as well...
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post #52 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

Review of Toshiba 65L9300U:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/toshiba-65l9300u-4k-hdtv-review,3768.html

Are these the Toshiba FALD sets?

Tomshardware reviewed the L9300 & the L7300
But I thought the FALD sets were listed as the L9400 & the L7400?

In fact, I don't see the don't see these sets being mentioned anywhere here in their schedule release.
http://www.cnet.com/news/toshiba-ces-2014-tvs-full-array-local-dimming-4k-and-clouds/


Are they just a European variation?

Either way, they seem like a disappointment.
Looks like they offer the same black levels & contrast as the Samsung F8500 plasma, which is nice & a step up from regular VA panel LCDs, but don't touch the Pioneer Elite & Panasonic ZT lines.

Yes, the L7300 and L9300 are 2013 edge-lit sets. The reviews were disappointing and we're all hoping that Toshiba is stepping things up with the release of the FALD / Luminance L7400U and L9400U.
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post #53 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 10:12 PM
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Anybody else looking forward to the Panasonic 1080p AS650? cool.gif Another contender,
that costs just as much as the Toshiba L7400. Both 55" models go for about $1499, where as the 55" M series is $899.
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post #54 of 54 Old 04-03-2014, 10:49 PM
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Specs wise the Panasonic can't compete because it's edge lit. So far we are looking at a $1100 Street price on the L7400 also. I'm curious if this is a 10bit panel also. It advertises wide color gamut, which would indicate that but I think this can be faked. We need some solid specs dammit. What's the refresh rate? How many bits? Dimming zones?
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