Vizio P Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 05:15 AM
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I just hope they are fast enough to handle motion adequately as I am finding my critical watching in my non home theater space to be frustrating while watching a samsung led lcd. Otherwise I may just have to jump on the last remaining plasmas.
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post #362 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 07:51 AM
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I just hope they are fast enough to handle motion adequately as I am finding my critical watching in my non home theater space to be frustrating while watching a samsung led lcd. Otherwise I may just have to jump on the last remaining plasmas.
Based on the information posted on ces.vizio.com the P has a clear action rate of 960 compared to the M's 720. It also has Motion Estimation / Motion Compensation feature all thanks to its processor. So I'm guessing it will indeed handle motion better than the E, M and Samsung.
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post #363 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 08:04 AM
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Based on the information posted on ces.vizio.com the P has a clear action rate of 960 compared to the M's 720. It also has Motion Estimation / Motion Compensation feature all thanks to its processor. So I'm guessing it will indeed handle motion better than the E, M and Samsung.
Here comes the soap opera effect
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post #364 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 08:08 AM
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Here comes the soap opera effect
Probably, but maybe it handles it a little differently. Whenever a manual for the P series is discovered we might get a better idea.
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post #365 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 10:01 AM
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Here comes the soap opera effect
I never thought I'd say this, but my Sony produced SOE, and now movies that look like video are a-ok and the new normal.

It's almost as if the image that we've grown accustomed to was so absurdly wrong that we've lost site of what it should be? I'm really surprised at this because having been in computer graphics and imaging science for a very long time I notice everything.

That said, there is a distinct difference among manufacturers. I never saw something so SOE punched out as the 2010 Samsung I test drove.

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post #366 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 11:11 AM
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I never thought I'd say this, but my Sony produced SOE, and now movies that look like video are a-ok and the new normal.

It's almost as if the image that we've grown accustomed to was so absurdly wrong that we've lost site of what it should be? I'm really surprised at this because having been in computer graphics and imaging science for a very long time I notice everything.

That said, there is a distinct difference among manufacturers. I never saw something so SOE punched out as the 2010 Samsung I test drove.

I thought the frame interpolation on the 2013 Vizio M series looked much more natural than on the Samsung D7000.

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post #367 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 11:30 AM
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I never thought I'd say this, but my Sony produced SOE, and now movies that look like video are a-ok and the new normal.

It's almost as if the image that we've grown accustomed to was so absurdly wrong that we've lost site of what it should be? I'm really surprised at this because having been in computer graphics and imaging science for a very long time I notice everything.

That said, there is a distinct difference among manufacturers. I never saw something so SOE punched out as the 2010 Samsung I test drove.
The image people want is what it looked like at the theater, which is exactly "what it should be" because that's what the filmmakers made a decision to have it look like. Filmmakers hire absurdly expensive cinematographers, directors of photography and lighting designers expressly to get the look they end up with. In fact, even when films these days are shot on digital cameras they pay large sums to have them processed in post production to restore the "film look" and take away the video look. Even many TV shows, including all those considered the quality stuff on HBO, AMC, etc., caught on to that consumer preference and the audience perception that video look=cheap and started post processing their shows to look more film-like. When Peter Jackson released the Hobbit in 48fps digital video, overall the audiences panned the look and with the next film they post production processed it to make it softer and more film-like.

Most people can get used to anything and there are some who prefer it. But for the most part the SOE is just that -- an effect, an artificial alternation of the image and not "normal" or "what it should be."
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post #368 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 11:46 AM
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^^^Would have agreed with you last year. Now, I don't. Everything in the pipe is now digital, and HFR is absolutely the way to go, and we'll be seeing far more of it hopefully. And no post processing is needed. We got used to how CRTs and Film looked, and that was far from real life. We will now get used to the video SOE look, and that is also far from real life.

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post #369 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 12:24 PM
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I, for one, welcome our new HFR Overlords!
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post #370 of 404 Old 06-18-2014, 12:27 PM
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The image people want is what it looked like at the theater, which is exactly "what it should be" because that's what the filmmakers made a decision to have it look like. Filmmakers hire absurdly expensive cinematographers, directors of photography and lighting designers expressly to get the look they end up with.
We had better all go get an IPS LCD and disable any sort of dynamic contrast or local dimming since film stock or the digital projectors used in the theater have poor black levels and we want it to look exactly like it did at the theater.
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post #371 of 404 Old 06-21-2014, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rtn5000 View Post
Based on the information posted on ces.vizio.com the P has a clear action rate of 960 compared to the M's 720. It also has Motion Estimation / Motion Compensation feature all thanks to its processor. So I'm guessing it will indeed handle motion better than the E, M and Samsung.
Yes, but it all kind of depends below the P. It still seems to me it's still largely the panel manufacturer, as much as they try to convince everyone otherwise ('the 5x-70 are similar'). Sure, scanning backlight tech helps a lot, but as a baseline it surely matters where your starting point response time is.

Now, this is theory, not a fact. I've simply noticed a pattern and applying some logic.

Take a baseline of 5ms, which seems to be where AUO often splits their stock (Higher-end Sony/Samsungs vs lower, probably the M versus E, probably all 4k panels at this point...regardless of what vizio's manual or AUO's panel spec list). Not only does 5ms or lower seem to afford them 20/40ms (or lower) of input lag (depending on implementation), but also better motion resolution. Since 5ms or slightly better could allow 200hz (or practically up to 192-216/210hz, if talking frame multiples) with soe, or roughly 400+ lines of motion resolution, from there I imagine it scales motion with the scanning back light. With the 60 inch M, the Sharp panel scales from at least 300 (150hz) to around 1080 (essentially 180hz with 3x scanning backlight) lines with it engaged, but can't complete 400/1200 (200hz), while the input lag (based on a theory of roughly 8x response time) suggests gray-to-gray of around 5.2xms, (where 5.2 is the cutoff for a 'great' input lag), which tbh is really good for a Sharp display, but black to black (for motion) is then probably similar, and still higher and under 192hz (over 5.2ms), or 8x*24fps film.

This could relatively effect performance, and I see this spec (for motion/input lag and scaling) as a key threshold I only really see AUO succeeding in (for as-of-yet reviewed products).

This really doesn't matter for the p, where both should eclipse 1200 regardless (as long as under 6.66ms, which all 55+, at least, surely are) but something to consider on the M, and really for all manufacturer's models when comparing sharp and auo. There are other things of course (like sharp's generally better contrast, but red push on their gamut, where-as auo is seemingly more blue and seemingly tailored toward RGB, ala a computer monitor.) It's just a piece to consider, like everything else.

Also, this can't be verified until we see a 'geek box'-like breakdown between a similar sharp/auo model and compare, but I imagine this theory holds somewhat true, and we could see the 55 and/or 65 M reach 1200 lines of motion resolution without the extra strobing the P does...more likely the 55 than the 65 because of 5/6.5ms ratings (if vizio/auo's ratings are to be believed).

Oddly, according to available panels and their specs, the reverse will be true of the P (where-as the 65 is rated at 5.5, the 55 at 6.5...but odds are both will be below 5 for all intents and purposes). At this point, it becomes purely a curiosity as corresponding to input lag.

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post #372 of 404 Old 06-21-2014, 07:32 AM
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Yes, but it all kind of depends below the P. It still seems to me it's still largely the panel manufacturer, as much as they try to convince everyone otherwise ('the 5x-70 are similar'). Sure, scanning backlight tech helps a lot, but as a baseline it surely matters where your starting point response time is.

Now, this is theory, not a fact. I've simply noticed a pattern and applying some logic.

Take a baseline of 5ms, which seems to be where AUO often splits their stock (Higher-end Sony/Samsungs vs lower, probably the M versus E, probably all 4k panels at this point...regardless of what vizio's manual or AUO's panel spec list). Not only does 5ms or lower seem to afford them 20/40ms (or lower) of input lag (depending on implementation), but also better motion resolution. Since 5ms or slightly better could allow 200hz (or practically up to 192-216/210hz, if talking frame multiples) with soe, or roughly 400+ lines of motion resolution, from there I imagine it scales motion with the scanning back light. With the 60 inch M, the Sharp panel scales from at least 300 (150hz) to around 1080 (essentially 180hz with 3x scanning backlight) lines with it engaged, but can't complete 400/1200 (200hz), while the input lag (based on a theory of roughly 8x response time) suggests gray-to-gray of around 5.2xms, (where 5.2 is the cutoff for a 'great' input lag), which tbh is really good for a Sharp display, but black to black (for motion) is then probably similar, and still higher and under 192hz (over 5.2ms), or 8x*24fps film.

This could relatively effect performance, and I see this spec (for motion/input lag and scaling) as a key threshold I only really see AUO succeeding in (for as-of-yet reviewed products).

This really doesn't matter for the p, where both should eclipse 1200 regardless (as long as under 6.66ms, which all 55+, at least, surely are) but something to consider on the M, and really for all manufacturer's models when comparing sharp and auo. There are other things of course (like sharp's generally better contrast, but red push on their gamut, where-as auo is seemingly more blue and seemingly tailored toward RGB, ala a computer monitor.) It's just a piece to consider, like everything else.

Also, this can't be verified until we see a 'geek box'-like breakdown between a similar sharp/auo model and compare, but I imagine this theory holds somewhat true, and we could see the 55 and/or 65 M reach 1200 lines of motion resolution without the extra strobing the P does...more likely the 55 than the 65 because of 5/6.5ms ratings (if vizio/auo's ratings are to be believed).

Oddly, according to available panels and their specs, the reverse will be true of the P (where-as the 65 is rated at 5.5, the 55 at 6.5...but odds are both will be below 5 for all intents and purposes). At this point, it becomes purely a curiosity as corresponding to input lag.
Interesting, where did you find information about the P's panel and specs?
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post #373 of 404 Old 06-21-2014, 08:28 AM
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Interesting, where did you find information about the P's panel and specs?

I think he's just speculating based on what we know of the E/M series. Unfortunately we can't glean much from them as the P will be using a totally different panel from both of those models and would probably be closer to another 4k model using the same panel.


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post #374 of 404 Old 06-23-2014, 03:23 AM
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I would think the opposite would be true -- the LARGER the TV the broader the real world capacity for seating within the ideal viewing corridor. The outliers of 7 people sitting side-by-side in front of an 80" TV are going to have a narrower angle of viewing than the same group sitting in front of a 50" TV.

That's great that you have 20 foot viewing distance. My point was real world conditions vary substantially from household to household and situation to situation (i.e. quiet movie might with your significant other versus 10 people over to watch the game). Products should try to accommodate consumers and not expect consumers to accommodate products. Better to have a TV that can handle people viewing from a variety of angles than to dismiss it by suggesting everyone should arrange their households and limit their guests to accommodate the perfect viewing cone.

I'm sure that for a majority of use in a majority of households, viewing straight on is fine. I doubt it's anywhere close to 99.9% and suspect the percentage is meaningful enough to be worth it as a product feature. This is not an issue for CRT's, plasma, or even IPS LCD screens for the most part.
99.9% of the people I know don't throw tv related parties and are able to watch without extreme angles in a small living room(by 99.9% I mean 100%) Just depends who are. I feel like if you are throwing that many parties that require a tv as your center of entertainment then you shouldn't be looking at a Vizio. Case settled.
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post #375 of 404 Old 06-23-2014, 04:45 AM
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99.9% of the people I know don't throw tv related parties and are able to watch without extreme angles in a small living room(by 99.9% I mean 100%) Just depends who are. I feel like if you are throwing that many parties that require a tv as your center of entertainment then you shouldn't be looking at a Vizio. Case settled.
If your stat were true, why is viewing angles such a frequent topic of discussion here and in the major reviews of these sets? Why be dismissive of what other people's situation is -- just because you don't need a side viewing angle, you assume virtually no one does. And why do you see this as a Vizio issue? Most US-LCD panels have similar issues. I haven't found Vizio's viewing angles to be any worse than any other non-IPS panel.
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post #376 of 404 Old 06-23-2014, 05:13 AM
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Yes, but it all kind of depends below the P. It still seems to me it's still largely the panel manufacturer, as much as they try to convince everyone otherwise ('the 5x-70 are similar'). Sure, scanning backlight tech helps a lot, but as a baseline it surely matters where your starting point response time is.

Now, this is theory, not a fact. I've simply noticed a pattern and applying some logic.

Take a baseline of 5ms, which seems to be where AUO often splits their stock (Higher-end Sony/Samsungs vs lower, probably the M versus E, probably all 4k panels at this point...regardless of what vizio's manual or AUO's panel spec list). Not only does 5ms or lower seem to afford them 20/40ms (or lower) of input lag (depending on implementation), but also better motion resolution. Since 5ms or slightly better could allow 200hz (or practically up to 192-216/210hz, if talking frame multiples) with soe, or roughly 400+ lines of motion resolution, from there I imagine it scales motion with the scanning back light. With the 60 inch M, the Sharp panel scales from at least 300 (150hz) to around 1080 (essentially 180hz with 3x scanning backlight) lines with it engaged, but can't complete 400/1200 (200hz), while the input lag (based on a theory of roughly 8x response time) suggests gray-to-gray of around 5.2xms, (where 5.2 is the cutoff for a 'great' input lag), which tbh is really good for a Sharp display, but black to black (for motion) is then probably similar, and still higher and under 192hz (over 5.2ms), or 8x*24fps film.

This could relatively effect performance, and I see this spec (for motion/input lag and scaling) as a key threshold I only really see AUO succeeding in (for as-of-yet reviewed products).

This really doesn't matter for the p, where both should eclipse 1200 regardless (as long as under 6.66ms, which all 55+, at least, surely are) but something to consider on the M, and really for all manufacturer's models when comparing sharp and auo. There are other things of course (like sharp's generally better contrast, but red push on their gamut, where-as auo is seemingly more blue and seemingly tailored toward RGB, ala a computer monitor.) It's just a piece to consider, like everything else.

Also, this can't be verified until we see a 'geek box'-like breakdown between a similar sharp/auo model and compare, but I imagine this theory holds somewhat true, and we could see the 55 and/or 65 M reach 1200 lines of motion resolution without the extra strobing the P does...more likely the 55 than the 65 because of 5/6.5ms ratings (if vizio/auo's ratings are to be believed).

Oddly, according to available panels and their specs, the reverse will be true of the P (where-as the 65 is rated at 5.5, the 55 at 6.5...but odds are both will be below 5 for all intents and purposes). At this point, it becomes purely a curiosity as corresponding to input lag.
Ok, I don't know where to begin here. For starters, response time of the panel has nothing to do with refresh rate, or motion resolution (at least not in this day and age). It also has not a single effect on input lag. Input lag is the time it takes for the signal to be processed and displayed on the tv, while response time is the time it takes for a pixel to change from one state to another. Of course, when measuring input lag with a device such as the LB input lag tester, the number you see is the input lag plus response time added together. For example, my HP 27xi which uses an IPS panel with a response time of 7ms has an average input lag of 11ms. Meanwhile, my Sony w900a has a response time of around 5ms and has an average of 19ms of input lag. The Samsung F8000 uses the same panel as the w900a and has over 40ms of input lag. As far as native motion resolution of LCD panels, they will all (whether it is a cheap $300 TCL or $8k Sony) be around 300 lines of motion resolution. This is due to sample and hold. Where response time comes into play, is in motion blurring. Even still, you will be hard pressed to find an LCD manufactured today that has any noticeable motion blur.
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post #377 of 404 Old 06-24-2014, 11:58 AM
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Figured this was best posted here:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Brands/V...rl5u_rxzdRG3ng

Showing the P series as "Coming Soon", still no word on when, but at least its something

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post #378 of 404 Old 06-24-2014, 12:06 PM
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Figured this was best posted here:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Brands/Vizio/


Showing the P series as "Coming Soon", still no word on when, but at least its something
That link is down already.

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That link is down already.
Fixed the link, that was my fault.
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I can has now?
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post #381 of 404 Old 06-30-2014, 03:50 PM
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I can has now?
2 weeks!!!
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2 weeks!!!

2 weeks? I'll believe that when I see it


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2 weeks? I'll believe that when I see it
It's a running joke in various circles on the availability of pending projects that seem to move into more vaporware status after taking abnormally long, like a supercharger for a car. It's always 2 weeks out.
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It's a running joke in various circles on the availability of pending projects that seem to move into more vaporware status after taking abnormally long, like a supercharger for a car. It's always 2 weeks out.
"Well ain't this place a geographical oddity. Two weeks from everywhere."

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post #385 of 404 Old 06-30-2014, 06:07 PM
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It's a running joke in various circles on the availability of pending projects that seem to move into more vaporware status after taking abnormally long, like a supercharger for a car. It's always 2 weeks out.

It's also the length of time one might spend on Mars for vacation.


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post #386 of 404 Old 07-05-2014, 11:54 AM
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Figured this was best posted here:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Brands/V...rl5u_rxzdRG3ng

Showing the P series as "Coming Soon", still no word on when, but at least its something
came here looking for a release date...and while this isn't it at least it seems to be heading that direction...
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post #387 of 404 Old 07-05-2014, 08:08 PM
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When I was a software development manager the sales guys always wanted to know when the product would be ready. I would tell them it would eventually be 2 weeks.
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post #388 of 404 Old 07-05-2014, 09:51 PM
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more speculation/rumors

the latest speculation is aug/sept:

http://gigjets.com/07/16113-vizio-p-...-release-date/
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post #389 of 404 Old 07-05-2014, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yao View Post
the latest speculation is aug/sept:

http://gigjets.com/07/16113-vizio-p-...-release-date/
2015 according to the article.

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post #390 of 404 Old 07-05-2014, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank F View Post
2015 according to the article.

If it were actually 2015 I think we would have heard of a delay. Aug/Sept 2014 is what has been guessed at for awhile now (Fall 2014).


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