Vizio P Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 830 Old 07-28-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Wasn't even considering the 720 and 480 issues...and now I am!
If you're saying you actually watch a lot of 720 and 480 too, my best advice is wait and view content at this resolution in a showroom once this set comes out before making up your mind. I always bring in SD content to view on TV's before buying them. No one has really seen a Vizio 4K set up-converting SD content yet so too soon to say. But it will probably be fine. Keep in mind even a 1080P set has to up-convert 480 and 720, so in principle it won't be an issue. There's an expression of garbage-in, garbage-out which means that as a rule a larger, higher resolution set may show the "flaws" in the original resolution more. But most sets these day do a reasonably good job.
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post #422 of 830 Old 07-28-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Thanks..but I guess I was just wondering about "native" display ability. I am thinking that for every one 1080 panel pixel, there are four 4k pixels...this all sounds great, but what about the "dead" spaces between 4k pixels? The single 1080 pixel would be 100% lit, but the four 4k pixels would have unlit spaces between them that would otherwise be lit on a 1080 pixel. Is this a significant issue?

Also, are there more opportunities for completely dead pixels? While they would be smaller and less noticeable, there are more of them to fail. Am I thinking too much into this?

Dead pixels? They are all pixels if the set up converts then everything is displayed. Think of it like this, if 1080p sets had "dead"
Pixels for lower content there would be a lot more dissatisfied customers when viewing SD and 720p content.
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post #423 of 830 Old 07-28-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
If you're saying you actually watch a lot of 720 and 480 too, my best advice is wait and view content at this resolution in a showroom once this set comes out before making up your mind. I always bring in SD content to view on TV's before buying them. No one has really seen a Vizio 4K set up-converting SD content yet so too soon to say. But it will probably be fine. Keep in mind even a 1080P set has to up-convert 480 and 720, so in principle it won't be an issue. There's an expression of garbage-in, garbage-out which means that as a rule a larger, higher resolution set may show the "flaws" in the original resolution more. But most sets these day do a reasonably good job.
I watch VERY little 480 content, and for that stuff, I really don't care how well it does. However, given that Fox, ABC, ESPN, and several other networks broadcast HD in 720p, I AM concerned about its ability to upconvert this content...

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post #424 of 830 Old 07-29-2014, 05:16 AM
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The P-Series and R-Series are now listed at vizio.com!

No release dates though...
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post #425 of 830 Old 07-29-2014, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
I watch VERY little 480 content, and for that stuff, I really don't care how well it does. However, given that Fox, ABC, ESPN, and several other networks broadcast HD in 720p, I AM concerned about its ability to upconvert this content...
You shouldn't have much of a problem with 720P upconvert - it should be fine as demo'd at a flat panel shootout in the past they purposely demo'd 720P on the 1080P panels and it also looked excellent to the audience and professionals attending at Value Electronics.

Most 4K upscalers have been excellent so far but of course we have nothing to go by with Vizio as we have no consumer product approaching 8 months later - but the CES attendee's were most impressed by the Vizio's "P" and Reference series performance.

I can't remember voluntarily viewing 480 material unless an HD channel was cheating - sending out reruns in SD late night or weekends across the HD channel and then I change the channel as I won't voluntarily ever view 480Pewee Turdvision. 720P should just be fine and be close to 1080i or better with the upscaler they'll be using but 480 is still likely to REMAIN a TURD!

Come on Vizio - bring it on we're FOUR months from CES 2015.

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post #426 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 08:29 AM
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.. earlier in the thread, Scott W. detailed the Vizio model branding; was curious if someone could explain the shreadout after "-" (hyphen) .. b2 and b3. If merely a newer panel, what does b3 offer over b2 in improvement.


My hope was for the 65", but if the b3 panel provides better picture, then the 70"er .. or go for "R" series.


thanks much for any explanation/feedback!!


** add: sorry guys, needed to sign-in to use search .. have found the panel diff. 'may' correspond to "nits" or brightness; googling 'nits' .. its said Led must be at least 1k nits for indoor Led viewing(?) Also, found in this Forum that the B3 60"ers are 10-bit panels. If anyone could expound on this, would greatly appreciate.

Last edited by daniel'son; 08-01-2014 at 06:00 AM. Reason: ** add: new information
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post #427 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 08:52 AM
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B2 and B3 usually mark the panel maker. No one really knows what panels the P series will utilize, so it's anyone's guess as to which is which. Once they start to hit showroom floors we'll have a better idea.

The R series should be superior to all of the p series point blank.
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post #428 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 09:27 AM
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^^ .. thanks Ph8te for quick response.


Patience is key - was kinda hoping for 10-bit in P-series 65"er, not that its necessary, but more that, consider it specifically better. As a Kuro owner, know I may not achieve the blacks of my 1150hd .. but, possibly close. Also, I have a spare Pioneer BD-23 would like to use.


again, thanks much.
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post #429 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 09:32 AM
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P series will be 8 bit (as far as we know). The R series is the 10 bit. There could be some 10
Bit panels in there, but until we see the specs it's all guessing.
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post #430 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
B2 and B3 usually mark the panel maker.
I thought it was the CM who assembled the TV, not necessarily the panel maker.
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post #431 of 830 Old 07-31-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I thought it was the CM who assembled the TV, not necessarily the panel maker.

As of now from what it has been seen in E/M models it's the "panel type/maker". For instance the M60/70 are both B3 and 10 bit panels. The 55/65 are both 8bit B2 panels. The "common" panels also share manuals usually.
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post #432 of 830 Old 08-03-2014, 12:14 PM
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Smile Full Resolution at 4K 60 FPS?

Getting pretty excited about the P series and I am ready to buy. It looks like Vizio has been very careful to check all the boxes and give the majority of customers what they want at a rock bottom price.

I had the original 55" Vizio LED with local dimming and it was a pretty good set. It DID have an IPS screen and the blacks were decidedly mediocre without the dimming. Don't know how many zones but it wasn't quite enough. There were halos popping up on a regular basis (especially scrolling titles at the end of a movie) as well a dimming of some highlights during night scenes. Still, for a first effort, it worked well most of the time.
If the new P series does use a VA type screen that will likely have a better native contrast ratio than IPS so local dimming should work more unobtrusively.

Just read a review of sony's X950B series and was disappointed to find out that there was no CMS/10 step gray scale and even more disappointed to discover that 4K 60 FPS was NOT at full resolution. The 2160 stayed the same but the 3840 Horizontal resolution was reduced to something less (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/xbr65...57.htm#picture). I really hope that is not the case with Vizio's new line as well as others.

Does anyone know if the P series has an advanced menu with full 10 step gray scale and gamma adjustment?
I just came across this thread yesterday and haven't read all the way through it yet so I apologize if I'm going over already discussed questions.

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post #433 of 830 Old 08-03-2014, 01:38 PM
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Both E and M series have CMS and 11pt (although they don't work "correctly" at all times) this would lead as to assume that the P and R would also have the same 11pt and CMS of not something "better".
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post #434 of 830 Old 08-13-2014, 01:05 PM
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Any of you guys checked the Vizio website recently concerning the P-Series ? There is a running display of its FALD implementation showing half the onscreen image and below it the other half of the image with the FALD LEDs reacting in real time to the constant change in contrast/brightness of the image.
I found it mesmerizing, certainly the most detailed running display of what goes on with FALD engaged behind LCD panels; The display is so revealing that you can even discern single LEDs changing brightness in real time, which i imagine is what Vizio rightly describes as "micro dimming" ?
Which leads me to the other question : what is the reliability of FALD over years of use and billions (trillions ?) of calculations, constantly changing ON/OFF and brightness levels ? Isn't it time we started a poll concerning such point ?
Based on memory, the first HDTV with FALD offered for sale in the USA was a Sony model released about 4~5 years ago followed very quickly by a Samsung model and i imagine there are still plenty of owners/users out there.
I wonder how are those HDTV sets with FALD still faring after all these years of constant use ?

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post #435 of 830 Old 08-13-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
Any of you guys checked the Vizio website recently concerning the P-Series ? There is a running display of its FALD implementation showing half the onscreen image and below it the other half of the image with the FALD LEDs reacting in real time to the constant change in contrast/brightness of the image.
I found it mesmerizing, certainly the most detailed running display of what goes on with FALD engaged behind LCD panels; The display is so revealing that you can even discern single LEDs changing brightness in real time, which i imagine is what Vizio rightly describes as "micro dimming" ?
Which leads me to the other question : what is the reliability of FALD over years of use and billions (trillions ?) of calculations, constantly changing ON/OFF and brightness levels ? Isn't it time we started a poll concerning such point ?
Based on memory, the first HDTV with FALD offered for sale in the USA was a Sony model released about 4~5 years ago followed very quickly by a Samsung model and i imagine there are still plenty of owners/users out there.
I wonder how are those HDTV sets with FALD still faring after all these years of constant use ?

No.
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post #436 of 830 Old 08-14-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
Any of you guys checked the Vizio website recently concerning the P-Series ? There is a running display of its FALD implementation showing half the onscreen image and below it the other half of the image with the FALD LEDs reacting in real time to the constant change in contrast/brightness of the image.
I found it mesmerizing, certainly the most detailed running display of what goes on with FALD engaged behind LCD panels; The display is so revealing that you can even discern single LEDs changing brightness in real time, which i imagine is what Vizio rightly describes as "micro dimming" ?
Which leads me to the other question : what is the reliability of FALD over years of use and billions (trillions ?) of calculations, constantly changing ON/OFF and brightness levels ? Isn't it time we started a poll concerning such point ?
Based on memory, the first HDTV with FALD offered for sale in the USA was a Sony model released about 4~5 years ago followed very quickly by a Samsung model and i imagine there are still plenty of owners/users out there.
I wonder how are those HDTV sets with FALD still faring after all these years of constant use ?
Those tv's are going to outlive their owners, so no reason for a poll. Obviously there are the occasional defective ones, but in general, you will not have the tv long enough for the backlight to fail.
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post #437 of 830 Old 08-14-2014, 05:50 PM
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I received an invitation today for a press event in NYC on Sept. 23th that is billed as the launch event for the new P-series from Vizio. That implies to me the first of the P-series UHD-TVs should be arriving at dealers no later than October.
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post #438 of 830 Old 08-14-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
Any of you guys checked the Vizio website recently concerning the P-Series ? There is a running display of its FALD implementation showing half the onscreen image and below it the other half of the image with the FALD LEDs reacting in real time to the constant change in contrast/brightness of the image.
I found it mesmerizing, certainly the most detailed running display of what goes on with FALD engaged behind LCD panels; The display is so revealing that you can even discern single LEDs changing brightness in real time, which i imagine is what Vizio rightly describes as "micro dimming" ?
Which leads me to the other question : what is the reliability of FALD over years of use and billions (trillions ?) of calculations, constantly changing ON/OFF and brightness levels ? Isn't it time we started a poll concerning such point ?
Based on memory, the first HDTV with FALD offered for sale in the USA was a Sony model released about 4~5 years ago followed very quickly by a Samsung model and i imagine there are still plenty of owners/users out there.
I wonder how are those HDTV sets with FALD still faring after all these years of constant use ?
I have the Samsung 81F LED FALD from 2007 still going strong in my bedroom,the LED is still bright and I have it at setting 2.
This is a 10 bit panel.
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post #439 of 830 Old 08-14-2014, 06:10 PM
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Those tv's are going to outlive their owners, so no reason for a poll. Obviously there are the occasional defective ones, but in general, you will not have the tv long enough for the backlight to fail.
Not a big deal at all when you consider that most LED sets control backlight settings by rapidly pulsing the LED's off and on using PWM (pulse width modulation). Unless you're running showroom torch mode, your typical LED set is switching the LED's off and on several hundred times per second already.
I currently own a Sharp 80" with full array lighting and I was concerned what would happen if one of the hundreds of LED's failed. Would I notice? Would it be expensive to repair? I did some digging around on Google and the common consensus was that typical LED's are as reliable as solid state transistors - which as we know, are very reliable.
At the same time I came across content about the PWM to control screen brightness. I performed a simple test on my Sharp by taking a picture using a fairly long exposure of a vertical line moving horizontally across the screen. When I looked at the picture it showed a bunch of closely spaces vertical lines instead of a blurred picture. By dividing the number of lines by the shutter speed I came up with the actual rate of the PWM. It was a couple of years ago but I remember it as being 300 or so.............
The actual circuitry turning off portions of the screen is mostly solid state silicon. I would expect its reliability to be as good or better than the LED's.
I would love to see some real testing on this subject, but due to LED's extraordinarily long life, it would be a difficult thing to do
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Vizio P Series UHDTVs at CES 2014

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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I received an invitation today for a press event in NYC on Sept. 23th that is billed as the launch event for the new P-series from Vizio. That implies to me the first of the P-series UHD-TVs should be arriving at dealers no later than October.

Actually every single set (E and M) were being sold before their launch events (sometimes weeks before). If we go by those releases we may start seeing the P series in the next couple of weeks sold.
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post #441 of 830 Old 08-15-2014, 03:04 AM
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Thanks 6athome and billdag for the informative replies; It is comforting to know that FALD technology released 7 years ago is still running top shape, at least in a Samsung model. If i remember correctly, that first Sony FALD HDTV used R/G/B LEDs for backlight instead of the then upcoming Samsung which used white LEDs - and by white LED i imagine it meant blue LED filtered to emit white light.
Sony claimed that by using clusters of R/G/B LEDs closely bunched together it afforded not only much better localized contrast due to FALD but also better localized color rendition, hmm...
Ron Jones : please when you get to the Vizio Press Event let the reps know there are many,many prospective buyers out there who are disappointed with the company's line-up for the P-Series which tops at 70" diagonal and the R-Series which essentially consists of one affordable model in size 65" diagonal.
Why, if and when the company plans to release models for both series in sizes 80"~85" diagonal....Thanks.
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post #442 of 830 Old 08-15-2014, 03:43 AM
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I'm glad to hear that things are moving forward on the P series. What concerns me is that even when a product line is released it seems to take forever before you see any of them in stores. Example: Originally I was going to buy an M552i-B2. Even though it was released quite a while ago, I still have not found a Sam's, Walmart, Target, or Best Buy that has one (I don't have a Costco membership) - I have checked 2 or 3 of each store around the Raleigh, NC area and have yet to see an M series TV of any size. Of course I could order one, but I would want to see it first.


Based on that, now that I have decided to wait for the P552ui-B2, I'm afraid that the same thing will happen.
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post #443 of 830 Old 08-15-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
Thanks 6athome and billdag for the informative replies; It is comforting to know that FALD technology released 7 years ago is still running top shape, at least in a Samsung model. If i remember correctly, that first Sony FALD HDTV used R/G/B LEDs for backlight instead of the then upcoming Samsung which used white LEDs - and by white LED i imagine it meant blue LED filtered to emit white light.
Sony claimed that by using clusters of R/G/B LEDs closely bunched together it afforded not only much better localized contrast due to FALD but also better localized color rendition, hmm...
Ron Jones : please when you get to the Vizio Press Event let the reps know there are many,many prospective buyers out there who are disappointed with the company's line-up for the P-Series which tops at 70" diagonal and the R-Series which essentially consists of one affordable model in size 65" diagonal.
Why, if and when the company plans to release models for both series in sizes 80"~85" diagonal....Thanks.
+1
I really don't want to go to a smaller size after getting used to my 80" Sharp for the last 3 years. I probably still will if there are no other realistic options but I won't be deliriously happy about it. Key thing is, I really really want a 4K set with full array back-lighting. My 632U full array Sharp has been fantastic, even without the local dimming. With the right amount of ambient lighting the black level is subjectively very very good.
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post #444 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 10:17 AM
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I'm glad to hear that things are moving forward on the P series. What concerns me is that even when a product line is released it seems to take forever before you see any of them in stores. Example: Originally I was going to buy an M552i-B2. Even though it was released quite a while ago, I still have not found a Sam's, Walmart, Target, or Best Buy that has one (I don't have a Costco membership) - I have checked 2 or 3 of each store around the Raleigh, NC area and have yet to see an M series TV of any size. Of course I could order one, but I would want to see it first.
The Best Buy at Brier Creek had the 55" M series on display last weekend right next to the 55" LG UHD set that's on sale. Makes for a nice comparison. I was going to grab an M but now I'm waiting for the P series.
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post #445 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I received an invitation today for a press event in NYC on Sept. 23th that is billed as the launch event for the new P-series from Vizio. That implies to me the first of the P-series UHD-TVs should be arriving at dealers no later than October.

If you go to the 'Vizio 2014 all models' thread (or whatever), you will see recent information indicating that something like 19 pallets of 55" P Series arrived into the US in early August (almost 2 weeks ago).


So my guess is that we will see the 55" P Series emerge no later than early September and the event on September 23rd may be associated with the launch of most if not all of the Vizio P Series sizes including the 70" which is already available for pre-order on Amazon.


I also suspect that there will be an announcement regarding the Reference Series made at this press event (and if not, will be ready to give up on the R Series for this year).


Exciting times!
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post #446 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 01:46 PM
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If you go to the 'Vizio 2014 all models' thread (or whatever), you will see recent information indicating that something like 19 pallets of 55" P Series arrived into the US in early August (almost 2 weeks ago).


So my guess is that we will see the 55" P Series emerge no later than early September and the event on September 23rd may be associated with the launch of most if not all of the Vizio P Series sizes including the 70" which is already available for pre-order on Amazon.


I also suspect that there will be an announcement regarding the Reference Series made at this press event (and if not, will be ready to give up on the R Series for this year).


Exciting times!

I don't see the R series until holiday time. Vizio had been spreading the announcements over a couple of months and I don't think would take away from the P series launch by including the R series information.
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post #447 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 01:58 PM
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I don't see the R series until holiday time.
Just in time for Xmas.
(It's called marketing. )
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The Best Buy at Brier Creek had the 55" M series on display last weekend right next to the 55" LG UHD set that's on sale. Makes for a nice comparison. I was going to grab an M but now I'm waiting for the P series.
Is that because of the comparison or something else? Any input on the comparison?

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post #449 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Is that because of the comparison or something else? Any input on the comparison?
In part because of the comparison, in part because of the smoking deal that the P series seems like, to me. Comparisons in the store are pretty difficult given the lack of control over content and lighting, so I have limited goals in that regard.

At 55" I don't expect to see a huge difference in UHD over HD, especially given that 1080i/720p content is what will be available for most of the near future. But it can produce a smoother version of the same content when scaled well. The content seems to be starting to trickle out this year but being pushed more aggressively than I expected, so if I'm gonna upgrade now I don't mind paying the $500 premium. If it was $1500 as it was just a month ago, I wouldn't.
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post #450 of 830 Old 08-16-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
I don't see the R series until holiday time. Vizio had been spreading the announcements over a couple of months and I don't think would take away from the P series launch by including the R series information.

The fact that Samsung has elected to enter the $120,000 105" 105S9 in the VE shootout this weekend has caused me to increase that the 2014 Vizio Reference Series, including the 120" model, are for real this year.

I expect the 105S9 to get a lot of praise and probably also an award or two at this year's shootout - Samsung is trying to steal Vizio's thunder.

So I have increased confidence that Vizio will me making an announcement regarding pricing and availability of the Reference Series before the end of the year.

Whether they choose to capitalize on having all of the press present to combine an announcement on the R Series with a press event for the P Series is a question of strategy and timing - it sounds like the R Series was on display at the press event earlier this year for the M Series but all information regarding the R Series was under embargo (and still is).

It's now a game of chicken as to whether Samsung is going to announce unbelievable discounts on their $120,000 flagship monster-screen TV before or after Vizio has announced pricing on the 120" R Series...

But count on Samsung making the 105S9 available to consumers this year and likely at a price significantly less than $120,000...

Isn't competition great (for us consumers :-)
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