Vizio P Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewhale1 View Post

http://ces.vizio.com/

10-bit panel is listed for the R but not the P series.

I suspect that there are many features of the E and the M and the P which are not listed, so just because the P does not say 10-bit panel, does not mean it does not have a 10-bit panel. Especially if some sizes of the P such as 65" are 10-bit while other sizes such as 60" and 70" are 8-bit (from Sharp).

It would be a different story if the P-Series was specified to have an 8-bit panel, but as you read through the sequence of specs from R to P to M to E, you see fewer and fewer specs listed (which is ambiguous as to whether a feature / characteristic is included or not). So I suspect that the M and E are based on the same 'V6 quad-core processor' as the P and the R, but who can say - it is unspecified. Two notable exceptions are the specs for number of dimming zones and Clear Action Rate, which are distinctly specified for all 4 series (and are all software/firmware based, so easily fit into a 'dumbing down' marketing strategy of Functional, Good, Better, Best).
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Originally Posted by bluewhale1 View Post

Also in one of the early videos from CES someone from Vizio said something to the effect of for the R series they had to convince their supplier to make the 10-bit panel.

I believe it said 'custom 10-bit panel' where the use of the word 'custom' is critical. If they said they had to convince one of the suppliers to produce a 10-bit panel (without the use of the word 'custom'), that would imply a standard (panel) product available to other competitors. But the use of the word 'custom' implies Vizio's specifications (which presumably went beyond just bit depth) for a panel sold exclusively to them.

Now, it may be that the custom angle applied only to the 120" R Series and the 65" is based on the 'standard' AOU 65" 4K 10-bit panel - hard to know based on what was said. The fact that the R Series includes the two sizes and much of what was talked about was focused on the 120" model leaves :LOTS of room for uncertainty.

So I guess we're just going to have to wait and see...

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post #92 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mfogarty5 View Post

Why is everyone so enamored with 10 bit panels? My Sony XBR5 from 2007 has a 10 bit panel and 10 bit processing.

16 million vs one billion colors. My Samsung FALD LED has a 10 bit panel but with only 16 million colors available and REC 709 the standard , 10 bit was over kill and 8 bit was cheaper.Now with REC.2020 10 bit is needed for it and Dolby.(DHD)
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post #93 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 03:37 PM
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I hope I'm wrong. I'll tell you one thing for sure. I'm getting gray hair from waiting for this thing to get released.
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post #94 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I thought that for 2014 LG was not introducing any new FALD panels. Last year's 65LA9700 was FALD (or 'Nano Full LED' in LG-speak) but had pretty disappointing reviews (as well as a stratospheric price). Has LG announce new FALD designs at CES (or elsewhere) that I missed?

-fafrd
LG will be producing the 50" P-series,so that was the reason for the LG FALD remark.
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post #95 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

16 million vs one billion colors. My Samsung FALD LED has a 10 bit panel but with only 16 million colors available and REC 709 the standard , 10 bit was over kill and 8 bit was cheaper.Now with REC.2020 10 bit is needed for it and Dolby.(DHD)
Exactly I think the interview that Verge did with Vizio's CTO, said a 10bit was neccesary for the Dolby Vision HDR. The pixel purity engine that Vizio is employing is similar to Samsung's Micro dimming ultimate a software based contrast control set-up assisting the FALD to ensure better uniformity and PQ.
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post #96 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

Exactly I think the interview that Verge did with Vizio's CTO, said a 10bit was neccesary for the Dolby Vision HDR. The pixel purity engine that Vizio is employing is similar to Samsung's Micro dimming ultimate a software based contrast control set-up assisting the FALD to ensure better uniformity and PQ.

+1

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post #97 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 04:07 PM
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To clarify a few things:

Sharp makes the world's only 70, 80 and 90-inch panels. Every TV using panels that size is sourced from Sharp panels at this point.

Sharp makes no 65-inch panels. 65-inch panels are a terrible cut from every single fab on earth. Be thankful they even exist at all. Same with 75s.

Nearly every LCD producer makes a 55-inch panel (or something close) since that's what 8G was optimized for... Ironically, Sharp doesn't because all its production for TVs either (a) comes from the 10G fab that is optimized around 60 and 70 inch panels or (b) comes from old repurposed fabs that turned 40s and 46s into 80s and 90s....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #98 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

To clarify a few things:

Sharp makes the world's only 70, 80 and 90-inch panels. Every TV using panels that size is sourced from Sharp panels at this point.

Sharp makes no 65-inch panels. 65-inch panels are a terrible cut from every single fab on earth. Be thankful they even exist at all. Same with 75s.

Nearly every LCD producer makes a 55-inch panel (or something close) since that's what 8G was optimized for... Ironically, Sharp doesn't because all its production for TVs either (a) comes from the 10G fab that is optimized around 60 and 70 inch panels or (b) comes from old repurposed fabs that turned 40s and 46s into 80s and 90s....

Rogo, as far as 8-bit versus 10-bit, are there any limitations associated with fabs and/or manufacturers, or can any of the fabs put out equal-sized panels with either 8 or 10 bit depth?

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post #99 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 06:28 PM
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TCL has a 85 inch Dolby TV coming out. They make their own panels. I did a post on the R series forum 129#

http://www.avforums.com/article/ces-2014-first-look-at-the-latest-chinese-ultra-hd-and-oled-tvs.9776

TCL also makes RCA TV'S.
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post #100 of 397 Old 01-24-2014, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Rogo, as far as 8-bit versus 10-bit, are there any limitations associated with fabs and/or manufacturers, or can any of the fabs put out equal-sized panels with either 8 or 10 bit depth?

-fafrd

It is more expensive to manufacture a 10-bit panel because each sub pixel has to be 10-bits instead of 8-bits. A traditional 8-bit lcd panel only has to be able to produce 256 different brightness levels for each sub-pixel, while a 10-bit panel has to be able to produce 1024 different brightness levels per sub-pixel. Sony is the only manufacturer that implements 10-bit panels into almost all of their tv's currently (and have been for years).
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post #101 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

To clarify a few things:

Sharp makes the world's only 70, 80 and 90-inch panels. Every TV using panels that size is sourced from Sharp panels at this point.

Sharp makes no 65-inch panels. 65-inch panels are a terrible cut from every single fab on earth. Be thankful they even exist at all. Same with 75s.

Nearly every LCD producer makes a 55-inch panel (or something close) since that's what 8G was optimized for... Ironically, Sharp doesn't because all its production for TVs either (a) comes from the 10G fab that is optimized around 60 and 70 inch panels or (b) comes from old repurposed fabs that turned 40s and 46s into 80s and 90s....

Not true: http://www.panelook.com/sizmodlist.php?sizes%5B%5D=70
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post #102 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

It is more expensive to manufacture a 10-bit panel because each sub pixel has to be 10-bits instead of 8-bits. A traditional 8-bit lcd panel only has to be able to produce 256 different brightness levels for each sub-pixel, while a 10-bit panel has to be able to produce 1024 different brightness levels per sub-pixel. Sony is the only manufacturer that implements 10-bit panels into almost all of their tv's currently (and have been for years).

I have a Question, Who makes the panel's Sony uses? Samsung and Sony were a joint venture making panels, but if I remember right Sony ended it and Samsung took over the plant.
Did Sony include 10 bit in their hardware?
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post #103 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 10:01 AM
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I can tell right now there are certain movies that are not going to look good when upscaled on a 4k screen. I am watching 28 Days Later on blu ray on my Samsung 1080 led and the image quality of this movie on blu ray is horrible . Yet the blu ray version of Jaws looks 10x better than 28 Days Later. Jaws on the P series I think would look nice. 28 Days Later not a chance. I hope Vizio has done a good job with the upscaling so that that non hd cable channels don't look to bad.
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post #104 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhale1 View Post

I can tell right now there are certain movies that are not going to look good when upscaled on a 4k screen. I am watching 28 Days Later on blu ray on my Samsung 1080 led and the image quality of this movie on blu ray is horrible . Yet the blu ray version of Jaws looks 10x better than 28 Days Later. Jaws on the P series I think would look nice. 28 Days Later not a chance. I hope Vizio has done a good job with the upscaling so that that non hd cable channels don't look to bad.

Yes some Bluray movies are excellent transfers to 1080p while others are absolute crap. You have to remember though it doesn't matter how good the up scaling is, SD will always look like crap unless you have a small size TV.

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post #105 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

I have a Question, Who makes the panel's Sony uses? Samsung and Sony were a joint venture making panels, but if I remember right Sony ended it and Samsung took over the plant.
Did Sony include 10 bit in their hardware?

Sony gets panels from multiple manufacturers, including Samsung, AUO, LG, and others. People who hate on AUO or other manufacturers like Foxconn and Chi Mei have no idea how things work. Yes, those mentioned companies have a reputation for building cheap panels, but that is not a reflection of their product quality, that is a reflection of their demand. A company like Sony will request a certain spec LCD panel from a company like AUO and it gets made (such as 10-bit). If by hardware you mean processing, then yes. In fact, most Sony tv's have 12-bit processors or higher.
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post #106 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Sony gets panels from multiple manufacturers, including Samsung, AUO, LG, and others. People who hate on AUO or other manufacturers like Foxconn and Chi Mei have no idea how things work. Yes, those mentioned companies have a reputation for building cheap panels, but that is not a reflection of their product quality, that is a reflection of their demand. A company like Sony will request a certain spec LCD panel from a company like AUO and it gets made (such as 10-bit). If by hardware you mean processing, then yes. In fact, most Sony tv's have 12-bit processors or higher.
thanks
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post #107 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

It is more expensive to manufacture a 10-bit panel because each sub pixel has to be 10-bits instead of 8-bits. A traditional 8-bit lcd panel only has to be able to produce 256 different brightness levels for each sub-pixel, while a 10-bit panel has to be able to produce 1024 different brightness levels per sub-pixel. Sony is the only manufacturer that implements 10-bit panels into almost all of their tv's currently (and have been for years).

Thanks for the response, UFO, but I'm not sure this makes sense to me. If my understanding is correct, these LCD panels are all sample and hold, and that means there is no digital storage of anything within individual pixel cells.

Making a large-array of sample-and-hold circuits able to store analog values to 10 bit precision requires 10-bit DACs on the panel periphery and better signal conditioning and noise immunity on the analog signal paths through the panel itself than would be the case for an 8-bit panel (which could use 8-bit DACs and could allow more noise and less precise signal communication through the panel).

So if there is any significant difference in cost in the manufacturing of a 10-bit panel versus an 8-bit panel (outside of the additional cost for 10-bit DAC components versus 8-bit DAC components), I would assume it would have to do with additional manufacturing complexity and steps associated with communicating analog signals to 10-bit precision rather than 8-bit precision (such as additional shielding layers or whatever).

I suppose the other reason a 10-bit panel may be more expensive to manufacture than an 8-bit panel might be yield-related. If one of the failure modes associate with rejecting a panel is leaky pixel storage and inability to maintain a stored analog pixel value to the target precision for a specified minimum amount of time (associated with refresh rate), then it might be possible that there are panels with pixels able to store certain analog pixel values precise enough and long enough to meet 8-bit precision requirements but not precise enough and long enough to meet 10-bit precision requirements. This would mean that a panel that pass an 8-bit panel quality test and be accepted for shipment would fail a 10-bit panel quality test and so be sent to the dust bin.

You guys all know a great deal more about this industry than I do, so if my understanding is fundamentally flawed in some way, apologies in advance. But I would appreciate any more specific detail anyone has on whether 10-bit panels are fundamentally more costly to manufacture than 8-bit panels, and if so, whether the added cost is related to reduced panel yield, additional manufacturing steps/costs, or just the added cost of the higher precision DAC components required.

-fafrd
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post #108 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 12:21 PM
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Yes some Bluray movies are excellent transfers to 1080p while others are absolute crap. You have to remember though it doesn't matter how good the up scaling is, SD will always look like crap unless you have a small size TV.

I guess it comes down to how you define crap. SD content especially 480p looks relatively good on my Samsung. I had a long battle deciding between the E7000 and the GT50 and one of the reasons for choosing the E7000 was better video processing with non HD content. Please don't feel offended that I didn't choose the GT50 as it literally came down to which one I was favoring the day I placed the order, just saying I have been very happy with the PQ of SD content.

For me, how well the "P" series up scales is very important. Not expecting (but hopeful) SD to look better but it darn well better not look worse either.

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post #109 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhale1 View Post

I can tell right now there are certain movies that are not going to look good when upscaled on a 4k screen. I am watching 28 Days Later on blu ray on my Samsung 1080 led and the image quality of this movie on blu ray is horrible . Yet the blu ray version of Jaws looks 10x better than 28 Days Later. Jaws on the P series I think would look nice. 28 Days Later not a chance. I hope Vizio has done a good job with the upscaling so that that non hd cable channels don't look to bad.

Fyi, the knuckleheads that filmed 28 Days Later, filmed it in native 480p!
The blu-ray version is just a SD movie upconverted to HD, but the native resolution is still 480p.

It is probably the worst blu-ray movie in existence.
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post #110 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 12:56 PM
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Fyi, the knuckleheads that filmed 28 Days Later, filmed it in native 480p!
The blu-ray version is just a SD movie upconverted to HD, but the native resolution is still 480p.

It is probably the worst blu-ray movie in existence.

FWIW, when you scale 480p up to 2160p, you are talking about expanding each single pixel into an array of 4.5x4.5 pixels... (more than 20x interpolation!)

-fafrd
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post #111 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 02:16 PM
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I guess it comes down to how you define crap. SD content especially 480p looks relatively good on my Samsung. I had a long battle deciding between the E7000 and the GT50 and one of the reasons for choosing the E7000 was better video processing with non HD content. Please don't feel offended that I didn't choose the GT50 as it literally came down to which one I was favoring the day I placed the order, just saying I have been very happy with the PQ of SD content.

For me, how well the "P" series up scales is very important. Not expecting (but hopeful) SD to look better but it darn well better not look worse either.

Yes 480p is DVD. DVD up scaled can look pretty good. I'm talking about SD 480i channels, although it is acceptable , is by no means great. Some look better than others. I guess if you watch a lot of SD content, that could be important. I only watch HD, my 5year old son is the only one that watches SD cartoons once in a while, most are in HD already.There are other sources that can improve SD signals aswell such as Oppo players, Upcaling receivers, video processors.

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post #112 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

Yes 480p is DVD. DVD up scaled can look pretty good. I'm talking about SD 480i channels, although it is acceptable , is by no means great. Some look better than others. I guess if you watch a lot of SD content, that could be important. I only watch HD, my 5year old son is the only one that watches SD cartoons once in a while, most are in HD already.There are other sources that can improve SD signals aswell such as Oppo players, Upcaling receivers, video processors.

and cartoons are pretty easy to interpolate biggrin.gif

-fafrd
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post #113 of 397 Old 01-25-2014, 03:46 PM
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post #114 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Rogo, as far as 8-bit versus 10-bit, are there any limitations associated with fabs and/or manufacturers, or can any of the fabs put out equal-sized panels with either 8 or 10 bit depth?

The "bitness" of a panel is not a limitation of any particular fab. It is a limitation of how up to date some of the process tech is. As UFO says, you can pretty much get a 10-bit panel anywhere.
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Not true: http://www.panelook.com/sizmodlist.php?sizes%5B%5D=70

So I don't know who the Chinese company listed is (I assume ZHIXUAN is Chinese), but Samsung can't reasonably make 70-inch panels. I'm fairly shocked they offer them at all. In fact, I believe it's quite likely they "build them" at Sakai via Sharp and then sell them. There is just no reasonable way to make 70s on an 8G line without mixed-piece glass, which we've seen little interest in recently. I suppose there could be some old 6G fab running about making 70-inch panels?!?!

Despite the linked page, only >one< Samsung panel model is currently "In Production", everything else listed there is Discontinued. It's possible the company does make the panel internally in tiny quantities... It's possible they build it at Sharp... It's notable they currently don't sell anything in that size...

I basically stand by what I said... If it's a 70-inch TV, it's made by Sharp and the panel comes off the 10G line in Sakai. (Some tiny number of exceptions notwithstanding.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #115 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 05:06 AM
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Ran across this article on Innolux panels and if you notice they make a 65 WCG(wide color gamut) which is a 10 bit panel for REC.2020 and Dolby.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20131211PD206.html

Innolux is poised to produce 75-inch Ultra HD LCD TV panels in 2014 and has been in talks with Sony and Samsung Electronics over orders for the new products, according to sources with Taiwan's supply chain.
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post #116 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 11:54 AM
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The "bitness" of a panel is not a limitation of any particular fab. It is a limitation of how up to date some of the process tech is. As UFO says, you can pretty much get a 10-bit panel anywhere.

Thanks Rogo. When you speak about how 'up to date' the process tech is, do you know what kind of areas in particular? It's hard to imagine that the requirements for 10-bit panels could be related to decreased minimum conductor width (which would be more likely to be required for 4K panel resolution, for example) so what kind of new process tech is required to manufacture a 10-bit panel? And more importantly, once that process tech has been industrialized in the fab, are there any differences in the manufacturing between 10-bit panels and 8-bit panels that make the 10-bit panels more expensive to manufacture?

thanks again,

-fafrd
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post #117 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 01:56 PM
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What time frame they expecting to release the P series....I want the 55.
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post #118 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

Ran across this article on Innolux panels and if you notice they make a 65 WCG(wide color gamut) which is a 10 bit panel for REC.2020 and Dolby.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20131211PD206.html

Innolux is poised to produce 75-inch Ultra HD LCD TV panels in 2014 and has been in talks with Sony and Samsung Electronics over orders for the new products, according to sources with Taiwan's supply chain.

Great catch.

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Thanks Rogo. When you speak about how 'up to date' the process tech is, do you know what kind of areas in particular? It's hard to imagine that the requirements for 10-bit panels could be related to decreased minimum conductor width (which would be more likely to be required for 4K panel resolution, for example) so what kind of new process tech is required to manufacture a 10-bit panel? And more importantly, once that process tech has been industrialized in the fab, are there any differences in the manufacturing between 10-bit panels and 8-bit panels that make the 10-bit panels more expensive to manufacture?

So I don't really know, but I doubt that any 4K-capable fab can't also make 10-bit panels if that's what's demanded. Essentially, you're talking about an electronics difference to enable more sophisticated bit addressing of each transistor. It's marginally part some change is made to the LC formulation, though even if that's true, I doubt the process for applying the LC layer has been changed.
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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post

What time frame they expecting to release the P series....I want the 55.

I don't think anyone outside Vizio has any idea.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #119 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post

What time frame they expecting to release the P series....I want the 55.

My crystal ball says... no idea biggrin.gif

The general expectation is by mid-year, but Vizio has not given any real information. 2014 VE shootout should be in May, so hopefully Vizio is planning to enter the P Series into the shootout which ought to mean it should be available by then...

-fafrd
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post #120 of 397 Old 01-26-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

My crystal ball says... no idea biggrin.gif

The general expectation is by mid-year, but Vizio has not given any real information. 2014 VE shootout should be in May, so hopefully Vizio is planning to enter the P Series into the shootout which ought to mean it should be available by then...

-fafrd

I don't have a crystal ball either ,If you read this looks like first quarter, P or R series?

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20130911PD217.html
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