Vizio Reference Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 01:19 AM
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I don't think Toshiba is going to have anywhere near the number of zones as R series. But I did own Toshiba's last FALD, the 55SV670U, and it was a fine TV. Toshiba is good with local dimming tech.

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post #272 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 05:06 AM
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You could be right .. but they share same specs ( not sure Toshiba zones count .. not there yet )
Anyways lets wait and see....
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post #273 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rx74ray View Post

I don't think Toshiba is going to have anywhere near the number of zones as R series. But I did own Toshiba's last FALD, the 55SV670U, and it was a fine TV. Toshiba is good with local dimming tech.

Since Toshiba does not make their own panels anymore, it is most certainly the same panel except they will add their own software and CEVO 4K render chip. Should have the same number of zones as the Vizio. Comparing it to Toshiba's current flagship 65" 4K also made by AUO, it should MSRP around $6995 and street around $5K. I would guess Vizio would be getting a discount on the panels because they will order many more units than Toshiba. To bad this wasn't 70" like the Elite or bigger. Also Toshiba is saying First availability: June/July, so I would expect the Vizio a few weeks earlier.
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post #274 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rx74ray View Post

I don't think Toshiba is going to have anywhere near the number of zones as R series. But I did own Toshiba's last FALD, the 55SV670U, and it was a fine TV. Toshiba is good with local dimming tech.

Since Toshiba does not make their own panels anymore, it is most certainly the same panel except they will add their own software and CEVO 4K render chip. Should have the same number of zones as the Vizio. Comparing it to Toshiba's current flagship 65" 4K also made by AUO, it should MSRP around $6995 and street around $5K. I would guess Vizio would be getting a discount on the panels because they will order many more units than Toshiba. To bad this wasn't 70" like the Elite or bigger. Also Toshiba is saying First availability: June/July, so I would expect the Vizio a few weeks earlier.

I'm not an expert (yet biggrin.gif), but I'm not sure this is right.

From what I have understood, the LCD panels themselves (glass, color filters, and liquid crystals) are made by OEMs like Sharp or AUO, but that does not include the LED backlight.

So the Vizio Reference Series with it's 384-local-dimming-zone backlight will be unique to Vizio and Toshiba will have their own local dimming backlight designed with how ever many dimming zones they chose to specify...

It is highly likely that if the Vizio 65" Reference Series does make it to market this year, there will be no other FALD panel in 2014 with close to this number of local dimming zones.

From what I've read here and there, it seems like the Sony FALD panels generally have about 200 ldzs, and the Toshiba 9400U is not likely to have many more than that...
'
From David Katzmaier's comments to me earlier this week, his very preliminary impression from what he saw at CES 2014 was that he would rank the video quality / lack of blooming on the FALD panels he saw as follows:

#1 Vizio Reference Series (no signs of blooming and 'could match or outperform' the Sharp Elite in picture quality)

#2 Sony X950B (no signs of blooming and 'may also approach' the Sharp Elite in picture quality)

#3 Toshiba Radiance (no signs of blooming)


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post #275 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 02:43 PM
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the motion blur reducing 'back light scanning' has spiked my interest. But it's just disappointing that it knocks down the brightness. The question is, by how much? I'm guessing it's going to vary with every model. I just want a super bright picture, that's capable of white whites(My s60's are dirty in warm2), no ABL(then again, local dimming may be just as bad...) deep inky blacks and has motion comparable to that of a plasma.
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post #276 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 03:10 PM
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the motion blur reducing 'back light scanning' has spiked my interest. But it's just disappointing that it knocks down the brightness. The question is, by how much? I'm guessing it's going to vary with every model. I just want a super bright picture, that's capable of white whites(My s60's are dirty in warm2), no ABL(then again, local dimming may be just as bad...) deep inky blacks and has motion comparable to that of a plasma.

The Vizio Reference Series backlight puts out 800 nits, which is more than you could ever stare out directly (blinding).

None of the 'active rate' technology we are talking about will bring LED/LCD brightness levels down to the dimness of the typical plasma, so I don't think you have anything to worry about in terms of reduced brightness.

It's not a question of being 'disappointing' - it is the fundamental concept being exploited (trading off brightness for reduced motion blur).

Taken to the extreme, an LCD could be turned into a plasma-like display in terms of strobing and motion blur, which would mean flashing each pixel 'ON' for only 1/10th of the time with a backlight that is 10 times brighter. Motion blur would be reduced to 10% (plasma-like levels) and light output would be reduced to 10% x 1000% = 100%.

It's not about reducing brightness, it's about increasing backlight brightness (which means adding cost) so that the backlight can be strobed 'ON' only part of the time (to reduce motion blur) and still deliver target brightness...

If you have an s60, I doubt you will ever find an LED/LCD that does not put out much brighter whites even when backlight strobing (motion blur reduction) is increased to the maximum!

I have an LED/LCD (LG 55LW5600) and tried the 'best ever' plasma for a week in January (65" ZT60). In my view, with a top-tier FALD panel like the Sharp Elite (and hopefully the Vizio Reference Series biggrin.gif ), the fundamental tradeoff between plasma and LED/LCD will be increased viewing angle (plasma) versus brighter (and sharper) image (FALD LED/LCD).

The continued decline in LED prices, coupled with increasing LED light output are quickly making differences between plasma and LED/LCD in terms of motion blur a thing of the past...

-fafrd
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post #277 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 04:04 PM
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I saw this great CES 2014 interview with Vizio CTO Matt McRae on UltraHD TV via YouTube today and thought I would share...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecCxYWvccF8
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post #278 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 04:25 PM
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I saw this great CES 2014 interview with Vizio CTO Matt McRae on UltraHD TV via YouTube today and thought I would share...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecCxYWvccF8

Yeah, that's the McRea interview by The Verge - that interview had lots of visibility right after CES (and it was also the main source of information related to Vizio dropping 3D in 2014...).

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post #279 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 04:39 PM
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Yeah, that's the McRea interview by The Verge - that interview had lots of visibility right after CES (and it was also the main source of information related to Vizio dropping 3D in 2014...).

-fafrd

I was looking at several of the Interviews about the new lineup but that one stood out since it was the CTO being interviewed. Another good one about Vizio was from GamerHUB.TV who spoke to their TV marketing manager Carlos Angulo... he gave a lot of info (very quickly and seemed to stumble over words a couple of times) and it was nice to see the new TV's at the booth rather than just seeing the guy talking. Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJvyhYWf3s
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post #280 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Yeah, that's the McRea interview by The Verge - that interview had lots of visibility right after CES (and it was also the main source of information related to Vizio dropping 3D in 2014...).

-fafrd

I was looking at several of the Interviews about the new lineup but that one stood out since it was the CTO being interviewed. Another good one about Vizio was from GamerHUB.TV who spoke to their TV marketing manager Carlos Angulo... he gave a lot of info (very quickly and seemed to stumble over words a couple of times) and it was nice to see the new TV's at the booth rather than just seeing the guy talking. Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJvyhYWf3s

Thanks - yeah that one has made the rounds as well. In case you have not yet seen the 'specs' that Vizio has put out for their 2014 line-up, here it is: http://ces.vizio.com/

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post #281 of 535 Old 02-08-2014, 07:28 PM
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Thanks - yeah that one has made the rounds as well. In case you have not yet seen the 'specs' that Vizio has put out for their 2014 line-up, here it is: http://ces.vizio.com/

-fafrd

Yeah I've seen them...I think I've read all the posts, including yours, thanks for all the info!
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post #282 of 535 Old 02-09-2014, 10:41 AM
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Knowing that Vizio uses many LG panels in there tv's and not being sure how to tell if one of there models has an LG panel or not, personally I will not buy a Vizio until they stop using LG panels in there tv's. I for sure wouldn't buy an LG!

Supporter of 1080p & 4K video / Supporter of Lossless PCM, Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio / Say No To MP3 & WMA / Say no to Bose & LG!
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post #283 of 535 Old 02-09-2014, 12:04 PM
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Knowing that Vizio uses many LG panels in there tv's and not being sure how to tell if one of there models has an LG panel or not, personally I will not buy a Vizio until they stop using LG panels in there tv's. I for sure wouldn't buy an LG!

They have used a variety of panel suppliers in the past, but I think most of the current and future panels in the 50" plus category are coming from AUO or Sharp. Anything less than that might be from LG.
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post #284 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 04:13 AM
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I'm not an expert (yet biggrin.gif), but I'm not sure this is right.

From what I have understood, the LCD panels themselves (glass, color filters, and liquid crystals) are made by OEMs like Sharp or AUO, but that does not include the LED backlight.

Often, TV makers buy the panel + BLU (backlight unit) as an integrated module. Sometimes they buy raw panels.

Vizio most likely does not buy raw panels, the integration work is harder if you do and Vizio really is a lean company. (Though I cannot be 100% sure of this.)
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So the Vizio Reference Series with it's 384-local-dimming-zone backlight will be unique to Vizio and Toshiba will have their own local dimming backlight designed with how ever many dimming zones they chose to specify...

That seems pretty unlikely. It sounds like they will be identical panel/BLUs.


I would not put too much stock in Katzmaier's quick observations on the show floor as being (a) determinative of final image quality (b) what he personally will find with a longer, more thorough evaluation.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #285 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 10:02 AM
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I was reading about Dolby and the 3D is software engineering ,with the advanced R series maybe it will be updated to glasses free 3d ?what do you think?
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post #286 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 10:55 AM
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I was reading about Dolby and the 3D is software engineering ,with the advanced R series maybe it will be updated to glasses free 3d ?what do you think?

 

I don't understand the question.  "The 3D is software engineering".  <----What does this mean?


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #287 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 11:07 AM
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I don't understand the question.  "The 3D is software engineering".  <----What does this mean?

He is hoping they could update it with a firmware update since the glasses free 3D is created with software, and not dependent on the polarity of the glasses.
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post #288 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 12:21 PM
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I'm not an expert (yet biggrin.gif), but I'm not sure this is right.

From what I have understood, the LCD panels themselves (glass, color filters, and liquid crystals) are made by OEMs like Sharp or AUO, but that does not include the LED backlight.

Often, TV makers buy the panel + BLU (backlight unit) as an integrated module. Sometimes they buy raw panels.

Vizio most likely does not buy raw panels, the integration work is harder if you do and Vizio really is a lean company. (Though I cannot be 100% sure of this.).

I would be surprised if Full Array Local Dimming technology was as commoditized as Liquid Crystal Display technology. It may be that the manufacturing of a FALD backlight is straightforward enough that the backlight is typically manufactured to the customers specification by the same vendor and sold pre-attached to the LCD panel, but I would be shocked to learn that AUO and/or Sharp are free to sell the same 384-dimming-zone backlight Vizio has specified to other brands like Toshiba.

At the low end of the market, I can see backlights being commoditized, but at the high end it would not make any sense.

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So the Vizio Reference Series with it's 384-local-dimming-zone backlight will be unique to Vizio and Toshiba will have their own local dimming backlight designed with how ever many dimming zones they chose to specify...

That seems pretty unlikely. It sounds like they will be identical panel/BLUs.

Is that pure speculation or have you seen something somewhere to support that thesis? You know far more about this industry than I do, and so I hesitate to be too assertive. That being said, there would be far less variability in LED/LCD performance if backlight design was as commoditized as you are implying so I'm prepared to bet my 'pride on this thread' (biggrin.gif) that the Toshiba Luminance 65" 4K panel does not have 384 dimming zones like the 65" Vizio Reference Series.

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I would not put too much stock in Katzmaier's quick observations on the show floor as being (a) determinative of final image quality (b) what he personally will find with a longer, more thorough evaluation.

Absolutely agree with you (and as David has emphasized directly in his comments to me as well).

A first impression is exactly what it is - a first impression. But in any case a good first impression is a reason to be more optimistic than a bad first impression...


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post #289 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 01:31 PM
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He is hoping they could update it with a firmware update since the glasses free 3D is created with software, and not dependent on the polarity of the glasses.

Thanks! I guess I wasn't clear enough! I'm glad you understood it!
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post #290 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 08:47 PM
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I just sold my ZT60. R series here I come!

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post #291 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 09:46 PM
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I just sold my ZT60. R series here I come!

We're in the same boat, rx74ray. Returned my ZT60 about a month ago after viewing it for a week and seeing the new announcements coming out of CES (especially from Vizio biggrin.gif ).

Let's hope that the events that unflold through the rest of this year proves that we made the right decision!

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post #292 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 11:12 PM
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We're in the same boat, rx74ray. Returned my ZT60 about a month ago after viewing it for a week and seeing the new announcements coming out of CES (especially from Vizio biggrin.gif ).

Let's hope that the events that unflold through the rest of this year proves that we made the right decision!

-fafrd

We are officially Vizio's biggest anticipators. I'll be using my moms old 40" Polaroid TV until then. Can't wait until I start renting HDR movies over vudu on the greatest FALD ever made.

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post #293 of 535 Old 02-10-2014, 11:20 PM
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Well Sony 2014 FALD prices have been leaked

http://hdguru.com/sony-2014-4k-uhdtv-prices-leaked/

950 Series

XBR-65X950B (65-inch) $7999.99

XBR-85X950B (85-inch) $24,999.99

That at least gives us an indication of what the 65" & 120" will be priced from Vizio. Assuming Vizio will price the R series cheaper than Sony's top line.
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Well Sony 2014 FALD prices have been leaked

http://hdguru.com/sony-2014-4k-uhdtv-prices-leaked/

950 Series

XBR-65X950B (65-inch) $7999.99

XBR-85X950B (85-inch) $24,999.99

That at least gives us an indication of what the 65" & 120" will be priced from Vizio. Assuming Vizio will price the R series cheaper than Sony's top line.

My prediction is that the Visio 65" Reference Series will have an MSRP that is less than 50% of the XBR-65950B and the Visio 120" Reference Series has an MSRP that is more than 150% of that of the XBR-85X950B...


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post #295 of 535 Old 02-11-2014, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post

Knowing that Vizio uses many LG panels in there tv's and not being sure how to tell if one of there models has an LG panel or not, personally I will not buy a Vizio until they stop using LG panels in there tv's. I for sure wouldn't buy an LG!

That's nonsensical to me. LG makes some of the best LCD panels in the world.
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I would be surprised if Full Array Local Dimming technology was as commoditized as Liquid Crystal Display technology. It may be that the manufacturing of a FALD backlight is straightforward enough that the backlight is typically manufactured to the customers specification by the same vendor and sold pre-attached to the LCD panel, but I would be shocked to learn that AUO and/or Sharp are free to sell the same 384-dimming-zone backlight Vizio has specified to other brands like Toshiba.

I would not be even a little shocked. First of all, building this is easy. It's the same as pre-edge-lit designs more or less, but with individual addressing of the LED clusters. The software to do it right might be custom, but what you think is special sauce in mfg. is not.
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Is that pure speculation or have you seen something somewhere to support that thesis? You know far more about this industry than I do, and so I hesitate to be too assertive.

I very much doubt VIzio does any kind of backlight assembly. It's a tiny company. It wouldn't really make sense, especially if the panel manufacturer just took a direct LED/full array design and added wiring to address clusters.
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That being said, there would be far less variability in LED/LCD performance if backlight design was as commoditized as you are implying so I'm prepared to bet my 'pride on this thread' (biggrin.gif) that the Toshiba Luminance 65" 4K panel does not have 384 dimming zones like the 65" Vizio Reference Series.
Absolutely agree with you (and as David has emphasized directly in his comments to me as well).

Well, first of all the software isn't commodity. Second of all, there are no high-density local dimmed sets on the market. Maybe when there are a few, they will have similar backlight performance.

You have to understand something. Edge-lit designs are a nightmare. Backlight performance is so variable because manufacturing/assembly tolerances are so tight with the light guides. There are no light guides on full array/direct-LED designs (except the tiny ones built into the mini modules on some designs, like one Sony used, which are integrated ahead of assembly).

It's easier to get the physical part of the backlight right. It's still hard to get the software right.
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My prediction is that the Visio 65" Reference Series will have an MSRP that is less than 50% of the XBR-65950B and the Visio 120" Reference Series has an MSRP that is more than 150% of that of the XBR-

Why would they do that?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #296 of 535 Old 02-11-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't understand the question.  "The 3D is software engineering".  <----What does this mean?

He is hoping they could update it with a firmware update since the glasses free 3D is created with software, and not dependent on the polarity of the glasses.

 

Well now I'm actually hoping that's not what he's saying.  Glasses or not, the glasses-free 3D is built into the hardware of a set.  You cannot just alter the software of a normal TV to produce glasses-free 3D.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #297 of 535 Old 02-11-2014, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Well Sony 2014 FALD prices have been leaked

http://hdguru.com/sony-2014-4k-uhdtv-prices-leaked/

950 Series

XBR-65X950B (65-inch) $7999.99

XBR-85X950B (85-inch) $24,999.99

That at least gives us an indication of what the 65" & 120" will be priced from Vizio. Assuming Vizio will price the R series cheaper than Sony's top line.

It is interesting to note that the LG 55EA9800 OLED TV is going for $6,999 as they have dropped the MSRP to $7,999 and is offering a $1,000 rebate. See amazon's website. It seems the high end market will not tolerate a curved $15,000 TV. It also seems likely that Sony priced it high and gave itself some room to maneuver when competitive pressures affect sales. At least now, Vizio as well as Toshiba has a number to work with when it comes to positioning themselves in the market. Gotta love competition.
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post #298 of 535 Old 02-11-2014, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Follow-on post.

The Philips example is based on a 240Hz native panel (which is a rarity) while the Vizio M, P and Reference Series are all based on panels with a native 120Hz native refresh rate (which is far more common). So if Vizio is playing a similar game and only turning 'OFF' one segment of an 8-segment scanning backlight at a time (rather than strobing 'ON' only one segment at a time as Sony is doing), this would be a HUGE disappointment and essentially mean very little reduction in motion blur (and the Clear Action Rates of 1800 on the R and 960 on the P are total bullsh*t!!!).

I wrote this a week ago but have since realized that this is overthinking things.

The Reference Series has a Clear Motion Rate of 1800, and that should mean that each individual pixel can be strobed ON for only 0.6ms out of a total native refresh time of 8.4ms.

This will reduce light output from 800 Nits to 53 Nits (so dimmer than the dimmest plasma) but will reduce motion blur to far below plasma levels (~33% the motion blur of plasma).

By doubling the pixel ON time to 1.1ms, light output will be reduced to only 107 Nits (~90% that of the average plasma) and motion blur will still be reduced below plasma levels (~67% the motion blur of plasma)

And by increasing pixel ON time to 3/15th of the total native refresh time of 8.4ms, light output will be reduced to 160 Nits (brighter than the average plasma) and motion blur will be reduced to about plasma levels (pixel ON time of 1.68ms versus plasma at 1.67ms).

The last of these appears to be the most interesting, since motion is reduced to plasma-like levels with a light output that is still quite 'bright' by typical plasma standards...

And if more brightness is needed, motion blur can be further increased to 134% that of plasma for a light output that increases to 213 Nits.

So I don't think the Clear Action Rate of 1800 on the Reference Series is bullsh*t, I think it's actually a very smart design (as long as the backlight is bright enough).

I also said somewhere than a 'true' 48fps Cinema mode could not be supported on an LCD with a 120Hz native refresh rate, and I realize that is not correct. Combining a native refresh rate of 120Hz with a scanning backlight that has at least 2 segments and an action rate of at least 240Hz does allow a 'true' 48fps cinema mode. In the case of the Reference Series with it's Clear Action Rate of 1800, the panel can actually be operated in a manner very close to a true film projector, with each half-frame strobed 0.6ms apart followed by a delay of 20ms during which the next frame is loaded before it, too is strobed in two half-frames separated by 0.6ms.

This will result in an image that is very dim (53 Nits) but with even less motion blur than a true cinema projector. Other modes allow the light output to increase at the expense of a slight increase in motion blur, but it should be easily possible to deliver 'true' 48fps frame exposure (or 'ON' time) that is no longer than that of the projector with a brightness exceeding 200 Nits...

And the P Series (as a well as the M Series) should be able to do essentially the same thing as long as the light output of the backlight is not degraded too far below the 800 Nits of the Reference Series.

-fafrd
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post #299 of 535 Old 02-12-2014, 08:09 AM
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^You're a thorough one when it comes to replies.  I think in the last week and a half you've written 18 feet worth of comments (in screen space on my laptop).  LOL  :)

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Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #300 of 535 Old 02-12-2014, 05:50 PM
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I remember going into details on motion handling a while ago, but at the end it is all about how it looks to you. As long as Vizio includes enough customization on separate dejudder and deblurr, I am a happy camper.
ZT60 was plenty bright for me. I had my contrast set at 45 out of 100. I am mostly interested in the black levels. I love to see "R Series" beat Sharp Elite. I have owned all the recent premium TVs, and I can tell you Sharp Elite was truly the head turner and packed plenty WoW factor.

Display: VIZIO P702ui-B3, Speakers: 5.1, Polk Monitor 70 Biamped (R,L), Polk CS20 (Center), Polk OWM3 (Rears), Yamaha (Woofer) Previous Displays: Panasonic TC-P65ZT60, Sharp Elite PRO-70X5FD, Sony XBR-65HX950, Toshiba 55SV670U, Mitsubishi WD-65734, Panasonic PT-47WX49
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