Vizio Reference Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 516 Old 07-15-2014, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post
Are you referencing the 84X900A? If so, the 85X950B this year is without side speakers, which is the opposite of what you say above. If you are referring to the smaller X900A models, they were replaced with the X900B models, which still have the speakers.

In general though, there is much higher volume being done on the models without speakers. Vizio could learn something from Sony here and allow for this to be an option. Keeping it a requirement, especially for a company that is known for their low prices is just shooting themselves in the foot. Also, Sony does not have any hard data showing that customers prefer the speakers. Somewhat the contrary, actually. Customers do want better sound, in general, but most of that demand is on entry-mid level models. Customers of premium TV's generally have the audio covered, or are willing to spend some additional money to do it properly.
Regarding Sony, I was referring to the fact that the side speakers used to be a option and are now either fixed (900B series) or not. I was responding to the comment of the previous poster about having the option and wondering whether Sony's experience was that not that many people responded to the option to have detachable speakers (Sony has a long tradition of this, BTW. I have a 1990 26" CRT from Sony that has detachable speakers). Otherwise, why discontinue the option? Also, what do you mean by your statement: "Vizio could learn something from Sony here and allow for this to be an option." It seems like Sony could learn something from Sony too then since they no longer allow for this to be an option within the same model line.

But my broader point was that many manufactures are significantly improving the sound and speaker quality in premium flat screens. LG has side speakers now too as well as the 900B and the Vizio R-series, but even those panels without side front firing speakers still have put more focus on sound quality of late, reversing a trend of very weak sound that started when all the sets went super-thin profile.

Could you please send a link to your data point that "Customers of premium TV's generally have the audio covered, or are willing to spend some additional money to do it properly." Thanks. Why do you think Sony, LG and Vizio are all adding side front-firing speakers on premium sets if most of the customers don't want them?

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post #422 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 11:25 AM
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I read on FlatpanelsHD today from a comment that the 120 refernece series went live but no pricing as yet. I cannot find that news anywhere.

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post #423 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
I read on FlatpanelsHD today from a comment that the 120 refernece series went live but no pricing as yet. I cannot find that news anywhere.
What does "went live" even mean? Unless it means it has a scheduled release date and price in retail outlets it seems meaningless.
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post #424 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
What does "went live" even mean? Unless it means it has a scheduled release date and price in retail outlets it seems meaningless.
Wow, the fact they have the R Series on their live webpage is a good sign that at least one of them will get released this year. Just hope it is not a special built to order 120" for $100000 like the Samsung and LG 105" publicity stunts.
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post #425 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 12:50 PM
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A 65 R series on an OLED panel would be something to marvel at. Perfect razor sharp contrast and HDR - that's the ticket
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post #426 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
What does "went live" even mean? Unless it means it has a scheduled release date and price in retail outlets it seems meaningless.

It's probably a reference to the recently-revamped Vizio website, which now includes both the P Series and R Series.


The R Series page only says 'Coming Soon' and there has been no information regarding price.


Still, it's a promising sign and I believe that characterizing this step as 'meaningless' is a bit overly dismissive...
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post #427 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It's probably a reference to the recently-revamped Vizio website, which now includes both the P Series and R Series.


The R Series page only says 'Coming Soon' and there has been no information regarding price.


Still, it's a promising sign and I believe that characterizing this step as 'meaningless' is a bit overly dismissive...
I think you and I have covered this and can just agree to disagree. If the standard of "live" is the minority changed website, it's been "live" since the massive media blitz Vizio did starting at CES and they have had a live, public website that shows up on Google search results since then too. Most people find product pages through Google and not brand website browsing anyway.

To me it is live when it has an "buy now" button with a price and a shipping date. And for it to have been a real 2014 product it should be in people's living rooms by 12/31/14 (almost a full year from the announcement, which is extremely generous on our part).

I personally think there's a reasonable chance the 65" shows up meeting those criteria. I'm not sure the 120" is intended as any more of a real product than the top sized Samsung and Sony's. Made-to-order TV's that sell hundreds of units aren't real consumer products.

If it does show up and with a legitimate consumer price and retail distribution, great. Awesome. Just not holding my breath on the basis of a clever corporate p.r. campaign.

We'll see.
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post #428 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 05:15 PM
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here's the link unfortunately the sites needed to reply the the poster are blocked at my work.


http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1406623689


Someone can ask him?

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post #429 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
here's the link unfortunately the sites needed to reply the the poster are blocked at my work.


http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1406623689


Someone can ask him?
Based on the date of the post, Fafrd was right, all they were referring to was the change of of Vizio updating their website. It was on their website before but just not as easily navigable from their home page. One way to look at that, I suppose, is to say that it's gone from an announced product to a preview page for an about to be available product. But the sight still just says "coming soon" with no release date or pricing.
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post #430 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
Based on the date of the post, Fafrd was right, all they were referring to was the change of of Vizio updating their website. It was on their website before but just not as easily navigable from their home page. One way to look at that, I suppose, is to say that it's gone from an announced product to a preview page for an about to be available product. But the sight still just says "coming soon" with no release date or pricing.
That they have it with a "coming soon" is a step closer to reality. I don't think they'd make this step without there being a greater than 50/50 chance of actually producing the thing. That's for the 65". I've always just assumed that if the R is made at all, the 120" would just be a hand-built "just to say we did" non-volume product.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #431 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
That they have it with a "coming soon" is a step closer to reality. I don't think they'd make this step without there being a greater than 50/50 chance of actually producing the thing. That's for the 65". I've always just assumed that if the R is made at all, the 120" would just be a hand-built "just to say we did" non-volume product.

I agree (on all counts). And in addition, there has been a change in spec from the ces/Vizio site to this refreshed vizio main site. While the early ces information stated Clear Action 1800, this has now been changed to 1200. This indicates some further engineering/development but also means that the R Series may have a 240Hz panel (which was not possible with an action rate of 1800: 1200 = 240 x 5 while 1800 = 240 x 5.5 and non-integer = not possible).


An LCD panel with a 240Hz native refresh rate can also support 48fps native (without 3:2 pulldown) while a 120Hz panel could not have...

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post #432 of 516 Old 07-31-2014, 07:54 PM
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LG'S 98UB9800 unit has a price of $29,999. Now in the past LG's larger items like this move on the street at 50% off, so if they actually release the 98" and it can be had for 15K, it will sell very well.......

We will see.......
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post #433 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 08:39 AM
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I agree (on all counts). And in addition, there has been a change in spec from the ces/Vizio site to this refreshed vizio main site. While the early ces information stated Clear Action 1800, this has now been changed to 1200.
Are they moving closer in specifications to the Vizio-P in general, or just shaving down that weird 1800 number?

And IYO, is the the Vizio-R getting more real since your post above, or are we still in the same holding pattern?

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #434 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 12:30 PM
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Are they moving closer in specifications to the Vizio-P in general, or just shaving down that weird 1800 number?

The only change I have noticed is the reduction in action rate from the weird 1800 number to the more understandable 1200 number.


M Series is a 120Hz native panel with a 240Hz Effective refresh, a 720Hz Clear Action Rate and a 400 Nit backlight.
R Series is probably a 240Hz native panel with 1200Hz Clear Action Rate and an 800 Nit backlight.
P Series is probably also a 240Hz native panel with a 960Hz Clear Action rate and an unknown backlight brightness.


Both the R and P state that they support: "The VIZIO P-Series blows away traditional 3:2 pull-down with a Pure Cinema Engine that adjusts its frame rate to show films as the creators intended, in their native 24 and 48 frames per second, with a fidelity that will thrill the cinephile in you."


And supporting a true native 48fps frame rate requires a 240Hz native refresh rate. So so far, the big difference in number of local dimming zones and the 4-segment scanning backlight of the P versus the 5-segment scanning backlight of the R (which may be 4 physical segments and a full-frame BFI) are the only clear differences. The lower Clear Action Rate of the P suggests that the backlight will also not be as bright as the R, so probably somewhere between the 400 Nits of the M and the 800 Nits of the R (perhaps 600 Nits?).


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And IYO, is the the Vizio-R getting more real since your post above, or are we still in the same holding pattern?

We're more or less in the same holding pattern, though I would have to say that since early this year when this question has first been debated, there are two noteworthy developments:


-Vizio has now established a track record of delivering on both the E-Series and the M-Series (with the P Series hopefully about to materialize as well). Their credibility of delivering on what they have committed to has been good so far this year.


-the recent Website make-over was probably motivated by the soon-to-materialize P-Series (which was not present on the old website) but the fact that they elected to include the R Series in the website makeover now at the end of July suggests that the R Series will materialize before CES 2015. If it were dead or being delayed until after CES 2015, it would have been easier for Vizio to leave if off of the Website makeover for now and no one would have noticed it. So I take the inclusion as modestly confidence-building that at least the 65" R Series will be materializing before the year is out.
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post #435 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 01:03 PM
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...if only these dipsticks had kept passive 3D...

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #436 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 01:19 PM
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...if only these dipsticks had kept passive 3D...
i agree i've only used it once on my 2013 m and it looked pretty decent. still for me its not a deal breaker
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So the R series might have a slim chance of arriving in November? If they wait longer, the window for 2014 is done, IMO. I will officially have to label them as carnival barkers should they fail to deliver.
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post #438 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 02:13 PM
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So the R series might have a slim chance of arriving in November? If they wait longer, the window for 2014 is done, IMO. I will officially have to label them as carnival barkers should they fail to deliver.
I still suspect the R won't ever be made, though I'm less convinced of that now. If it does get made, they better be pretty damn amazing, or the videophile press will have a field day at their expense. And no, the demo units don't count.
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post #439 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 02:16 PM
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So the R series might have a slim chance of arriving in November? If they wait longer, the window for 2014 is done, IMO. I will officially have to label them as carnival barkers should they fail to deliver.

Vizio seems to prefer the style of 'under-commit and over-deliver' so it's possible that they are going to withhold release-date and pricing information on the R Series until the cusp of launch.


I originally thought that the lack of announced pricing by now was a reason for high-skepticism, but I now think that the re-make of the website including the R Series achieves about the same thing as having pricing announced.


And the advantage of not committing themselves to pricing until the last minute is that it gives Vizio more flexibility.


Historically, Vizio appears to shy away from the 'high MSPR steeply discounted in street pricing' approach favored by Samsung, LG, Sony and most others. Vizio typically announces pricing and sticks to it all the way until the end-of-life phase where they offer relatively modest discounts of 5-10% on discontinued models.


I actually have much higher respect for Vizio pricing strategy than the absurd and meaningless MSRP strategy of the other vendors, which just seems like a tactic to wring additional margin out of unaware and unsuspecting buyers.


And as I have said since the beginning, Vizio has the luxury of being able to price the 65" R Series at essentially any price they would like - it is a marketing investment to improve the value of their brand and 'move up the ranks'.


I believe they are going to ignore the Sony 65X950B and focus instead on the street price of the Samsung UN65HU9000 (and possibly also the near-flagship Sony 65X900B as well as the LG LED/LCG flagship 65UB9800.


Currently, street pricing of the Samsung UN65HU9000 is below $3000, street pricing on the Sony 65X900B is under $4000, and street pricing on the LG 65UB9800 is $3350.


So based on today's street pricing, I would expect Vizio to price the 65" R Series below $3500.


But by holding off until just prior to launch, they can monitor what happens with street pricing of the other TVs and adjust their non-discounted price accordingly.


It's interesting that the street price of the Samsung near-flagship UN65HU8550 is now basically identical to the Vizio near-flagship 65" P Series at $2200 and it may be that Vizio will focus solely on pricing of the Samsung flagship UN65HU9000 when pricing the 65" R Series. If so, this could mean a price closer to $3000 than $3500...


Seeing that the website has just been updated to include the R Series (and P Series), I agree that we have to expect the R Series will be in the channels by Black Friday and the Holiday shopping season. So we may not learn anything more until late-October/early-November.


But I would have to say that the chance of the 65" R Series materializing before the end of the year is now less slim than it was a month ago in my view.
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It is unfathomable to me that they could release a 384 dimming zone panel at $3000-3500 when Sharp struggled at double that price unless manufacturing efficiencies have improved that greatly in a mere 3 years. That is also why I don't think it will have nearly as many zones as the CES demo. Matching the Sharp Elite is more conceivable to me theoretically.
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3 years is an eon in the Consumer Electronics business. Not unfathomable to me at all. Disruptive technologies come in many guises.
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But there's nothing to suggest that there has been a breakthrough based on pricing of intervening high-end FALD sets since then (the latest being the XBR-950B...with an SRP greater than the Sharp Elites if I'm not mistaken, AND fewer dimming zones).

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It is unfathomable to me that they could release a 384 dimming zone panel at $3000-3500 when Sharp struggled at double that price unless manufacturing efficiencies have improved that greatly in a mere 3 years. That is also why I don't think it will have nearly as many zones as the CES demo. Matching the Sharp Elite is more conceivable to me theoretically.

There is no real cost to dimming zones - it's just trace wiring, some control drivers, and firmware (which may require a more powerful processor).


The real cost boils down to the number of LEDs which is ultimately translated into panel brightness.


With the emergence of LED lighting for the home, the cost of LEDs has come way, way down over the past few years, as has the cost of processing power - just look at smartphones.


The 65" P Series is being sold for $2200, and aside from the inclusion of a $300 (retail) 5.1 soundbar with the 65" Reference Series (and the hand-polished stainless steel stand), and possibly 50-100% more LEDs on the backlight, there is little in material cost that can be identified between these two products.
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I still suspect the R won't ever be made, though I'm less convinced of that now. If it does get made, they better be pretty damn amazing, or the videophile press will have a field day at their expense. And no, the demo units don't count.
If the new M series is anything to go by, Vizio's commercially available products (read as, not prototypes) will continue to only impress in the budget category.
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I will believe it when I see it. The P series has 64 zones...laughably few for serious cinematic viewing under controlled lighting. FALD sets with a high number of zones (and thus LEDs) are still on the high-end when it comes to cost. I've seen you scoff at Sony's XBR-950B price, but out of curiosity I can't help to wonder what the actual cost to Sony is after markup is removed.
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post #446 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 03:40 PM
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Wow, the fact they have the R Series on their live webpage is a good sign that at least one of them will get released this year. Just hope it is not a special built to order 120" for $100000 like the Samsung and LG 105" publicity stunts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't really think that a customer will be able to walk into the local Best Buy by the end of the year and pick up a Vizio 120" R-Series, do you ?
Just like the Samsung 105" this monster will have to be special-order/special-shipped/special-delivery item due to its cost, size and fragility.
And let's not forget that before you place your order make absolutely sure there is enough space at home to move and install it safely on its resting place.
As for people posting here they expect the Vizio 120" R-Series to have a msrp of $50,000.00 or less, keep dreaming; Considering Samsung is advertising its 105" UHDTV for $120,000.00 i would expect the Vizio to cost no less than $90,000.00, which would make it a "bargain" in the realm of humongous (over 90" diagonal) UHDTVs...
I still do not understand the marketing analysis of Vizio by offering this special-order "monstrosity" in lieu of affordable extra large UHDTVs in sizes of 80" and 85" which i imagine the company would be able to sell for considerably less than Samsung/LG based on the msrp of the P-Series.
I guess it all comes down to bragging rights : who's got the biggest one ?
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post #447 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 03:42 PM
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I will believe it when I see it. The P series has 64 zones...laughably few for serious cinematic viewing under controlled lighting. FALD sets with a high number of zones (and thus LEDs) are still on the high-end when it comes to cost.
You should think of it this way - the more dimming zones available, the more aggressively local dimming can be applied without introducing bloom/halo. And this is content-specific - so a FALD LED/LCD with more dimming zones can deliver better black levels across a wider range of content without introducing bloom/halo.

So native screen contrast is 'worst' - only native screen contrast for all content being viewed.

A FALD panel with a low number of zones is bit better - should at least deliver 'true lack' letterbox bars and will deliver improved black levels and contrast for a limited range of content being viewed.

And a FALD panel with a high number of zones is much better - should deliver 'true lack' letterbox bars and improved black levels and contrast for a much wider range of content being viewed.



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I've seen you scoff at Sony's XBR-950B price, but out of curiosity I can't help to wonder what the actual cost to Sony is after markup is removed.
I would hazard to guess that Sony spends more $$$s on marketing for the 65X950B than they spend on actual manufacturing COGs. I've never seen a Vizio employee on the Best Buy showroom floor and I have seen a Sony employee there many, many times...

In addition, because Sony sells so many fewer TVs than Samsung or Vizio, their manufacturing costs are no doubt higher. I've seen some speculation that Sony only expects to sell a few thousand of the 65X950B here in the US (OLED-like sales numbers).

Sony (and with them, Panasonic and probably others in Japan as well) is heading down the well-worn path trodden by plasma.

Last edited by fafrd; 08-05-2014 at 03:57 PM.
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post #448 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 03:42 PM
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I think the R series was just Marketing $$ for events and journalists - ie Branding --- or even re-Branding if you will. But at least that $$ had some R&D overlap towards future specs.
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post #449 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
I think the R series was just Marketing $$ for events and journalists - ie Branding --- or even re-Branding if you will. But at least that $$ had some R&D overlap towards future specs.

Time will tell...
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post #450 of 516 Old 08-05-2014, 04:28 PM
 
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My bare minimum threshold of FALD tolerance is a Sharp Elite. If that can't be matched (and preferably bettered, especially when it comes to viewing angles), I have no interest. 64 zones certainly won't cut it. It's going to be revealing (to some) watching the M get torn to sheds at the shootout.
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