Vizio Reference Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 516 Old 01-11-2014, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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For me, Vizio's new Reference series was the most important product introduction at CES this year. Not only are these sets UHDTVs with 384 zones of full-array local dimming, they are the first I know of to implement Dolby Vision technology, which includes high brightness, high dynamic range (HDR), and a wider color gamut. And as if that weren't enough, the panel and all circuitry in the video signal path is 10-bit; in fact, Vizio had to convince it's IC suppliers to build 10-bit chips!

 

The demo was incredible—two 65" UHDTVs side by side in a blacked out room, one a Samsung UHDTV and the other a Reference model. Universal delivered two sets of clips from Oblivion—one graded for Rec. 709 color and conventional dynamic range, and the other graded for a wider color gamut and HDR. (The Reference series currently achieves about 80 percent of Rec. 2020 and 800 nits of peak white, while the Samsung was pushed to about 350 nits.) Also shown were two similarly graded clips from Star Trek: Into Darkness.

 

There was much more detail in the Reference series image—for example, on the Samsung, you could see the pores in Tom Cruise's face, but on the Vizio, you could see how deep those pores were. Also clearly evident were much brighter specular highlights and richer colors as seen in the flames in the volcano from Star Trek and flames from the droid in Oblivion. Overall, the Vizio simply looked far more realistic. I was blown away.

 

I've long maintained that UHD should be about much more than pixel resolution, and the Vizio Reference series is the first consumer display that addresses my concerns. I was heartened to learn that Dolby is working with movie studios, broadcasters, streaming outlets, and equipment manufacturers to make sure that UHD content includes wide color gamut and HDR with more than 8-bit resolution.

 

Thanks to the Vizio Reference series and Dolby Vision, I'm finally excited about UHD!

 

I was unable to get a good photo of the side-by-side demo, so here's one of the 120-incher, which I believe was the largest flat panel at CES 2014. No pricing for the Reference series was announced, but it should be available by mid year.

 

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post #2 of 516 Old 01-11-2014, 08:32 AM
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Any news on pricing and availability for the 65 reference tv
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post #3 of 516 Old 01-11-2014, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Any news on pricing and availability for the 65 reference tv


No pricing for the Reference series was announced.


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post #4 of 516 Old 01-11-2014, 11:08 AM
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Scott,

I appreciate your starting all of these threads from the major new TV announcements at CES. In the case of the Vizio R Series, I think it might be more effective to have separate threads for the 65" R Series and the 120" R Series.

The 65" has a real shot to be a volume product this year, and collecting the reviews and impression people have of it would be useful.

The 120" is a very impressive panel but is unlikely to have any impact on the general market for at least another few years. And also, any technical characteristics of the 120" are not necessarily going to scale down to the 65" blindly (and visa-versa).

On the 65", I do have one specific question for you - any sense of off-angle performance?

thanks,

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post #5 of 516 Old 01-11-2014, 06:29 PM
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I have been a fan of 10 bit panels ever since I bought my Samsung (lnt-81f model fald led) way back in 2007.
The R series will sell if it is within a thousand dollars of the P series and will be a great bargain.
I think without 3d people will look at other brands if the price is high.
Passive 3D and 4K on large TV'S will be hot in 2014-2015.
I own the LG LV9500 FALD 2300 LED'S and 280 zones with active 3D and prefer passive.

Scott nice job on all your post! THANKS!
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Were you able to compare the Reference series to the next level down P series? How about versus the Sony 950B which I believe also uses a version of the HDR technology though I don't think it's from Dolby.
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post #7 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by efranzen View Post

Were you able to compare the Reference series to the next level down P series? How about versus the Sony 950B which I believe also uses a version of the HDR technology though I don't think it's from Dolby.


The Reference series was in a separate area, so no side-by-side comparison was possible. Still, it's easy to say the Reference series looked much better, at least being fed native UHD content that had been graded for the expanded dynamic range and color gamut. Vizio did not show it displaying conventionally graded content, with which the P series looked mighty fine.

 

Sony was showing its own HDR technology, not Dolby Vision, and it looked quite good from a cursory examination. The problem there is that the panel is still 8-bit, and I don't know if the studios will grade content for its capabilities specifically. The advantage of Dolby Vision is that the extra info beyond conventional dynamic range and gamut is encoded as metadata and can be ignored by TVs that do not have those capabilities. I don't know if the Sony HDR system works that way or not, or even if Sony has developed an encoding scheme that allows content to be graded for it. If so, what happens if that content is sent to a conventional TV? I don't know.


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post #8 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


The Reference series was in a separate area, so no side-by-side comparison was possible. Still, it's easy to say the Reference series looked much better, at least being fed native UHD content that had been graded for the expanded dynamic range and color gamut. Vizio did not show it displaying conventionally graded content, with which the P series looked mighty fine.

Sony was showing its own HDR technology, not Dolby Vision, and it looked quite good from a cursory examination. The problem there is that the panel is still 8-bit, and I don't know if the studios will grade content for its capabilities specifically. The advantage of Dolby Vision is that the extra info beyond conventional dynamic range and gamut is encoded as metadata and can be ignored by TVs that do not have those capabilities. I don't know if the Sony HDR system works that way or not, or even if Sony has developed an encoding scheme that allows content to be graded for it. If so, what happens if that content is sent to a conventional TV? I don't know.

Scott I wish someone would put together a list of TV makers, 8 bit vs 10 bit panels and even 12 bit.
REC. 2020 will make a difference in UHD TV'S.
To read about it http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1366264710
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post #9 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 02:15 PM
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Thanks for the concise answer Scott. I really think the Vizio reference series is going to be the UHD to get this year. I watched an interview earlier today too with Vizio CTO Matt McRae. He really made it sound like he had several studios on board with the Dolby HDR technology and that they're also hoping to get it encoded into the Blu-ray standard. Even though we haven't seen pricing on the Reference series yet, I suspect that they are going to be listed at an extremely competitive price point too, at least the 65" anyway.
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Is Dolby vision processing that will work on the standard stuff or will it have to be content created for that?

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post #11 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

For me, Vizio's new Reference series was the most important product introduction at CES this year. Not only are these sets UHDTVs with 384 zones of full-array local dimming, they are the first I know of to implement Dolby Vision technology, which includes high brightness, high dynamic range (HDR), and a wider color gamut. And as if that weren't enough, the panel and all circuitry in the video signal path is 10-bit; in fact, Vizio had to convince it's IC suppliers to build 10-bit chips!

The demo was incredible—two 65" UHDTVs side by side in a blacked out room, one a Samsung UHDTV and the other a Reference model. Universal delivered two sets of clips from Oblivion—one graded for Rec. 709 color and conventional dynamic range, and the other graded for a wider color gamut and HDR. (The Reference series currently achieves about 80 percent of Rec. 2020 and 800 nits of peak white, while the Samsung was pushed to about 350 nits.) Also shown were two similarly graded clips from Star Trek: Into Darkness.

There was much more detail in the Reference series image—for example, on the Samsung, you could see the pores in Tom Cruise's face, but on the Vizio, you could see how deep those pores were. Also clearly evident were much brighter specular highlights and richer colors as seen in the flames in the volcano from Star Trek and flames from the droid in Oblivion. Overall, the Vizio simply looked far more realistic. I was blown away.

I've long maintained that UHD should be about much more than pixel resolution, and the Vizio Reference series is the first consumer display that addresses my concerns. I was heartened to learn that Dolby is working with movie studios, broadcasters, streaming outlets, and equipment manufacturers to make sure that UHD content includes wide color gamut and HDR with more than 8-bit resolution.

Thanks to the Vizio Reference series and Dolby Vision, I'm finally excited about UHD!



I was unable to get a good photo of the side-by-side demo, so here's one of the 120-incher, which I believe was the largest flat panel at CES 2014. No pricing for the Reference series was announced, but it should be available by mid year.

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So folks are interested in HDR...this is exciting biggrin.gif
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Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #12 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


The Reference series was in a separate area, so no side-by-side comparison was possible. Still, it's easy to say the Reference series looked much better, at least being fed native UHD content that had been graded for the expanded dynamic range and color gamut. Vizio did not show it displaying conventionally graded content, with which the P series looked mighty fine.

Sony was showing its own HDR technology, not Dolby Vision, and it looked quite good from a cursory examination. The problem there is that the panel is still 8-bit, and I don't know if the studios will grade content for its capabilities specifically. The advantage of Dolby Vision is that the extra info beyond conventional dynamic range and gamut is encoded as metadata and can be ignored by TVs that do not have those capabilities. I don't know if the Sony HDR system works that way or not, or even if Sony has developed an encoding scheme that allows content to be graded for it. If so, what happens if that content is sent to a conventional TV? I don't know.

Scott,

I understand Vizio said nothing about pricing of the 65" Reference Series, but did they say anything on the timing for that set reaching the market? Do you believe they are going to try to get the 65" R Series out in time to have it entered into the 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout?

Any gut feel you have on this appreciated...

Thanks,

-fafrd
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post #13 of 516 Old 01-12-2014, 04:34 PM
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What if you dont want that thick speaker bar? I hope it is detachable.

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Scott Wilkinson,

I'd certainly love to see a HDR screen demo too.

The big question that arises for me, as one who uses a projection-based home theater: Can the HDR technology be incorporated into projectors? Or is this really all about the type of light horsepower, and discrete ANSI-type contrast that are the
province of flat panels. (Since projectors will always struggle with ANSI-type contrast vs flat panels).

I'd also wonder if, even if a projector itself wasn't HDR, whether an HDR source will be of noticeable benefit on the projector (or, for that matter, how visible added dynamic range will be if 4K Blu-Ray incorporates the right specs).
I just wonder how limiting the lower ANSI of projection is going forward with all these advances.

Thanks,
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post #15 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 12:52 AM
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"Fourth panel"-design projectors can have basically unlimited ANSI once the light source is powerful enough.

I don't have a sense of the current state of the art vis a vis lasers, but i presume we are capable of lamp-based projectors outputting enough light already.

It's true if the fourth panel is an LCD, there will be some attenuation of the output overall, but a DMD would not have much (any?) depending on the light path required.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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"Fourth panel"-design projectors can have basically unlimited ANSI once the light source is powerful enough.

I don't have a sense of the current state of the art vis a vis lasers, but i presume we are capable of lamp-based projectors outputting enough light already.

It's true if the fourth panel is an LCD, there will be some attenuation of the output overall, but a DMD would not have much (any?) depending on the light path required.

Ansi contrast in the projector world is hardly contributed to by the projector itself. Room reflections (bright walls, shiny leather furniture, light carper, ect.) are what kill both on/off and ANSI contrast for projectors regardless of how bright a projector is. The difference in completely blacking out my theater room had a much bigger impact on picture quality than actually upgrading my projector.
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Found out today that my bonus is going to be about 3x what I was expecting.

Vizio, lets see the pricing and release date of the 65"!
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post #18 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 10:43 AM
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I must say I am very interested in the 120 inch set. I would love to dump my projector setup - while I love the image quality, the heat, the fan noise, need to fine adjust focus every once in a while, etc, etc..

Does it have 3D capability?
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I must say I am very interested in the 120 inch set. I would love to dump my projector setup - while I love the image quality, the heat, the fan noise, need to fine adjust focus every once in a while, etc, etc..

Does it have 3D capability?

No Vizio pretty much killed 3d support for 2014.
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No Vizio pretty much killed 3d support for 2014.

Disappointing. I was actually very interested in this set - as long as Vizio kept it at or under 6K and obviously if the reviews were good.

I do like to watch an occasional Pixar/Disney/etc cartoon in 3D so that's kind of a deal breaker for me since it would require me to keep my projector just for 3D (which would be ridiculous with the setup it would entail - ceiling mounted motorized screen, etc).

At this price point 3D should be thrown in, IMHO.
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Disappointing. I was actually very interested in this set - as long as Vizio kept it at or under 6K and obviously if the reviews were good.

I do like to watch an occasional Pixar/Disney/etc cartoon in 3D so that's kind of a deal breaker for me since it would require me to keep my projector just for 3D (which would be ridiculous with the setup it would entail - ceiling mounted motorized screen, etc).

At this price point 3D should be thrown in, IMHO.

LOL. Under $6K? You won't have to worry about the lack of 3D then because the price will make it a non-issue many times over...
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post #22 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 11:11 AM
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Durak I disagree. While I can appreciate your desire for the occasional 3D kid flick (I've got 4 kids! ), I bet the reason behind the abandonment of 3D is a multi point approach including; limited desire/care from the buying public and more importantly, the r&d can be spent on improving the unit and image. If the engineers don't need to worry about 3D algorithms or perfection, they can focus on more important things like overall image quality. I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 buyers would opt for better image quality over 3D inclusion.
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I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 buyers would opt for better image quality over 3D inclusion.

You and Vizio both biggrin.gif

-fafrd
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post #24 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 11:40 AM
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LOL. Under $6K? You won't have to worry about the lack of 3D then because the price will make it a non-issue many times over...

Ditto! I'm guessing the 120" will be, at the very least, $20K, even with Vizio being as competitive as they are. I still wish they would make an 84" set in their Reference Series to compete with LG, Samsung, Toshiba, and Sony's 84" UHD sets. It would be much more "consumer-friendly" in both size and price.
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post #25 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Scott,

I understand Vizio said nothing about pricing of the 65" Reference Series, but did they say anything on the timing for that set reaching the market? Do you believe they are going to try to get the 65" R Series out in time to have it entered into the 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout?

Any gut feel you have on this appreciated...

Thanks,

-fafrd


We were told the Refernce series should be available in the second half of 2014, which could mean anything from July to December; I'd bet on closer to the end of the year, know how these things usually go.

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post #26 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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What if you dont want that thick speaker bar? I hope it is detachable.


The speakerbar on the 120-incher is detachable. I don't know about the 65, but I would guess so.

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post #27 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 12:11 PM
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We were told the Refernce series should be available in the second half of 2014, which could mean anything from July to December; I'd bet on closer to the end of the year, know how these things usually go.

Thanks Scott. Do you think there is any chance Vizio gets the R Series entered into this years VE shootout?

-fafrd
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post #28 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 12:44 PM
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Not much but I guess its a little snack to hold us over lol

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post #29 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 01:21 PM
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We were told the Refernce series should be available in the second half of 2014, which could mean anything from July to December; I'd bet on closer to the end of the year, know how these things usually go.

They could always bump up the release date.

I mean they had the E series selling at Costco the day after CES.
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post #30 of 516 Old 01-13-2014, 01:28 PM
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I'd imagine anyone who bought a couple of 3D bluray's and already has the 3D Compatible equipment all hooked up wouldn't be considering this series.

I wonder how many people will buy it before realizing it doesn't support their 3d gear and only find out after they hook it up and throw in the latest 3d disney offering?
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