Official 2014 Vizio Exxx-Bx Series owners thread - Page 107 - AVS Forum
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post #3181 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 12:19 PM
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Thoughts on “Black Detail” Setting

I am admittedly a bit OCD when it comes to calibration, call it a hobby. I probably spend more time playing around with Calman on my E700i-B3 then I do watching content on the TV. I’ve spent quite a bit time messing around with the “Black Detail” setting and have a few thoughts about it, but I am interested to hear the thoughts and experiences of others. Below I’ve outlined some of the pluses and minuses of this setting followed by my conclusions.

The Good:

This is one of the better black-management features I’ve encountered. If you don’t have a colorimeter and calibration software, and don’t care to pursue professional calibration, then you may want to turn Black Detail on. In some ways, Black Detail addresses some of the goals of a good gamma curve. Basically it is attempting to keep true blacks, black, while preserving black detail (i.e. avoiding black crush). The “Medium” setting seems to be the best at achieving these goals. The “High” setting causes something that can only be described as extreme black crush. Actually, High seems to go way beyond black crush and seems to make nearly everything look black. As far as I am concerned, High is useless. The “Low” setting is better, but tends to wash out blacks. “Medium” appears to have effects that are somewhat analogous to a 2.2 gamma curve. With some major caveats, see below, this setting can actually improve the picture of an uncalibrated set.

The Bad:

If you’re into calibration, you probably don’t want to use this setting. Because it produces dynamic changes in the picture, you can’t really calibrate with this setting turned on. Doing so is like chasing a moving target. If you calibrate with Black Detail off and then turn it on when done, you will seriously screw up your carefully calibrated curve. While the manual claims that Black detail adjusts the overall brightness of the picture depending on what is displayed on the screen, it seems to do much more than this. In fact, the brightness setting appears to be the least affected parameter. Black Detail also causes some significant changes in contrast. The setting significantly lowers contrast in scenes that have a large amount of white. While shifts in contrast with this setting are understandable, more bizarrely, the setting significantly punches up color saturation. If you set Color then turn Black Detail on, you will need to go back and readjust Color again, and possibly Tint, to assure accurate color and natural skin tones. Finally, even on the Medium setting, Black Detail still tends to produce some mild to moderate black crush in certain types of scenes.

Conclusion:

If you typically use factory preset picture modes or only adjust a few basic parameters using a disk, then I can recommend the Black Detail - Medium setting. Play around with it. If your picture improves, then use it.

If you own calibration equipment or have paid to have your TV calibrated, calibrate with Black Detail off and then leave it off. If you have a well calibrated gamma curve that is appropriate for the lighting level of your room, then you don’t need what this setting does. If your TV is properly calibrated, then this setting will not help the picture, but will only harm it.

So that’s where I’m at on this topic, but again, I’d love to hear the thoughts of others.

Chris
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post #3182 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 01:43 PM
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Just got my E550i-B2!

The flashlighting, I can deal with, but there's this one little light bleed spot at the bottom of the screen that just annoys the hell out of me when watching darker movies with no ambient light.

Has anyone fixed light bleeding issues by adjusting the screw tension at the bottom?

When I apply pressure to the area near the screw, the light bleed spot goes away. I think I'll give it a go tonight.
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post #3183 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carsfanatic View Post
I was having the same problems described here and I did a live chat session with Vizio and seemed to have fixed all the problems.

Of course we had to do through the normal reset the TV to factory defaults and reset the TV by holding the power button for 30 seconds etc. I of course explained I had already done this and the only cause of this issue was the firmware before the firmware everything was fine.

The live support person then gave another thing to try that I had not tried before. Go to System>System Info and then scroll down to the very bottom and select Service Reset and then after that the TV should turn off and back on if it does not turn back on by itself then turn it on manually. After it is back on then Reset the TV to factory defaults and check the TV settings after that.

For me after doing the Service Reset and then resetting the TV to factory defaults the Active LED zones set to off works(or at least is set to off by default)All the options seem to stick and stay at least so far....will update if anything changes.
I tried your suggestions and it did not work for my e650i-B2. Thank you for your suggestion though and i am glad it worked for you.

An update to my issue: I called Vizio today and they were unable to fix the issue via a "new" fw for my tv so they are sending me a new replacement in 6-10 business days. Hopefully i wont have the same issue on that one with the 1.60 fw and once i have the 1.60 firmware and everything it fine i plan to disconnect the tv from the internet so that it doesn't receive anymore FW updates that could break my tv again.
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post #3184 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carsfanatic View Post
I was having the same problems described here and I did a live chat session with Vizio and seemed to have fixed all the problems.

Of course we had to do through the normal reset the TV to factory defaults and reset the TV by holding the power button for 30 seconds etc. I of course explained I had already done this and the only cause of this issue was the firmware before the firmware everything was fine.

The live support person then gave another thing to try that I had not tried before. Go to System>System Info and then scroll down to the very bottom and select Service Reset and then after that the TV should turn off and back on if it does not turn back on by itself then turn it on manually. After it is back on then Reset the TV to factory defaults and check the TV settings after that.

For me after doing the Service Reset and then resetting the TV to factory defaults the Active LED zones set to off works(or at least is set to off by default)All the options seem to stick and stay at least so far....will update if anything changes.
I have an entirely different model of Visio than this thread (I just grabbed the first couple Visio threads to see if it was a system firmware update issue) but noticed the same issue where something has seemed to (what I assume) is force on the 'smart' dimming and other features despite settings otherwise. The slow to full bright, areas of the screen actively changing brightness from the side lights dimming or brightening along with some other image issues I can't put my finger on. My partner said the TV popped up a message about an update a few days ago and it has been doing this since.
I'll try doing the resets and report back as to whether that resolves it for my M601d-a3.
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post #3185 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 08:54 PM
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Please update with your results! I just got the set and I want to love it, but light bleeds on the right side of the screen are driving me crazy.
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post #3186 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jzkarap View Post
Please update with your results! I just got the set and I want to love it, but light bleeds on the right side of the screen are driving me crazy.
If that was directed towards me, no. That screw wouldn't tighten down anymore.
Most recommend LOOSENING the screws around the edges to reduce flashlighting around the corners.
I don't even think mine (E550i-b2) has screws along the top though.
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post #3187 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kitten_frenzy View Post
If that was directed towards me, no. That screw wouldn't tighten down anymore.
Most recommend LOOSENING the screws around the edges to reduce flashlighting around the corners.
I don't even think mine (E550i-b2) has screws along the top though.
Ah. Is your light bleed as bad as mine? I'm thinking of returning this set to try another. I also have an E550i-b2. Even with active LED enabled I still get pulses of light on black bar areas during bright scenes.
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post #3188 of 3209 Old 12-14-2014, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kitten_frenzy View Post
If that was directed towards me, no. That screw wouldn't tighten down anymore.
Most recommend LOOSENING the screws around the edges to reduce flashlighting around the corners.
I don't even think mine (E550i-b2) has screws along the top though.
I have the same issues. I've tried rubbing the screen with microfiber with no effect. Really frustrating when watching movies with letterboxing - to see these bright spots on the corner. Local dimming gets rid of it but it also distorts colors and creates a waxy effect on the highlights of faces in certain scenes. The local dimming messes with other highlights as well, so I sometimes prefer to turn it off. You just can't win.

I was curious if the M series did the same thing with the local dimming, and apparently it does.

Edit: I wonder if this clouding has to do with how the TV is shipped, e.g. how much it is roughed up and bounced around. Something has to account for the randomness of it.
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post #3189 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 09:53 AM
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VIA on E700i-B3

I received this new E700i-B3 set as a replacement from Vizio after four defective E701i-A3's. Everything works fine so far, no dreaded bright/white spots on the lower half of the TV that I experienced with the previous four sets.
However, there seems to be a bug with the VIA/Yahoo software. I can watch YouTube fine over my Wifi, but I can only use Facebook the very first time I had it set up. Now, it just shows "network disconnected" even though I can switch over to YouTube and watch videos immediately. The network tests show the connection is working, 5 Mbps download speed.
Any suggestions? I've reset the TV to factory once already but Facebook and other apps only works that very first time.

Last edited by seneschal; Yesterday at 02:10 PM.
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post #3190 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 03:08 PM
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I'm looking to upgrade and Best Buy has the E600i-B3 set for $799. I'm interested because I've heard the picture quality is great for the price, and that is all I care about. I have a roku for netflix etc, and I have a surround setup for audio which I currently have connected via the optical out on my current tv.

What should I know about this TV that only an owner would know?
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post #3191 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 04:29 PM
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I am getting the same issue again it seems don't have time to call or do live chat with Vizio again will update when I get time to do something about it.
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post #3192 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 05:09 PM
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Amazon is sending a replacement. I'm going to compare them side by side to make sure the replacement isn't worse than the original.
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post #3193 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kitten_frenzy View Post
Amazon is sending a replacement. I'm going to compare them side by side to make sure the replacement isn't worse than the original.
I too had my set replaced. The new one has the same problem, but it's not as pronounced. I don't know if I should settle for this or try again. Is there anyone who has a 2014 E series with uniform lighting?
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post #3194 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by seneschal View Post
I received this new E700i-B3 set, which is a replacement from Vizio after four defective E701i-A3. Everything works fine so far, no dreaded bright/white spots on the lower half of the TV that I experienced with the previous four sets.
However, there seems to be a bug with the VIA/Yahoo software. I can watch Youtube fine over my Wifi, but I can only use Facebook the very first time I had it set up. Now, it just shows "network disconnected" even though I can switch to Youtube and watch videos immediately. The network tests show fine, 5 Mbps download speed.
Any suggestions? I've reset the TV to factory once already but the Facebook and other apps only works that first time.
Random question, but does your 700i-b3 have fairly inconsistent backlighting? It almost is like I can see the backlight zones on the tv, when displaying an all white screen. However what really gets me is the dark lines on the left and right side of the screen. It's like the backlight just isn't lighting part of the edges and it looks bad, though I guess not any worse than plenty of other issues people have had with other edge lit tv's, and it's not visible in normal viewing really.
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post #3195 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jzkarap View Post
I too had my set replaced. The new one has the same problem, but it's not as pronounced. I don't know if I should settle for this or try again. Is there anyone who has a 2014 E series with uniform lighting?
The bad spot on mine looks the same on yours (centermost part of the bottom right)
Hmm, mine isn't as bad as yours though. Hopefully the replacement will be better, but it seems doubtful now.
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post #3196 of 3209 Old 12-15-2014, 11:42 PM
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E600-B3 VERSION UPDATE - SETTINGS

Had not checked in a long time but just noticed that there is an update in the E600-B3 series, I now have updated picture menu with the addition of several options including "gamma". We can now change the actual default settings (without creating a custom). my preferences for this outstanding TV are:

select "vivid", modify the following:
color temperature to "normal"
active led zones to "off" (I am testing to see if I can keep it on, maybe the issue has been resolved???)
black detail to : "Medium"
Gamma to: 2.1
Color to: 50

Enjoy!

Last edited by gregka; Yesterday at 11:23 PM.
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post #3197 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 12:12 AM
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Hmmm, and I thought full array backlighting was suppose to mitigate these issues
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post #3198 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 04:48 AM
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This last fw update didn't alter any of my main saved settings thankfully, just added the gamma tweak (and whatever else, didn't pay much attention to that)...however like mentioned, my 11 point white balance settings all went back to default (zero's) and more aggravating, the rest of the calibration was fudged with as well (not the actual values on the color tuner menu, but the colors themselves). It wasn't a major change but enough that I had to break out the filters and patterns and start over again. I don't think the gamma addition is the culprit for that either, because I tried it at every setting (ended up liking 2.0) and the calibration was still off regardless. In the end though I'm happy because I took more time and ended up with an even tighter, more accurate calibration than I did with the first one. For those that haven't noticed, check yours, you may be surprised to see it wasn't just a minor update, your calibration may need tweaking too, unless that is, it's common knowledge the calibration drifts over time on these sets (?) and since I'm new to vizio and this display (E500I-B1), I wouldn't have known to re-check mine after those first 100 hours or so...but I doubt that would be the case.

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post #3199 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 05:09 AM
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Hmmm, and I thought full array backlighting was suppose to mitigate these issues
Me too... That's the whole reason I went with this TV.
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post #3200 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jzkarap View Post
I too had my set replaced. The new one has the same problem, but it's not as pronounced. I don't know if I should settle for this or try again. Is there anyone who has a 2014 E series with uniform lighting?
Yes, my e700i-b3 has almost completely even backlighting, I do however have the dark bands about 3 inches on each side that others have reported.

Last edited by nall256; Yesterday at 08:26 AM.
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post #3201 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 08:58 AM
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Yes, my e700i-b3 has almost completely even backlighting, I do however have the dark bands about 3 inches on each side that others have reported.
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to monitor my set for a few days and exchange again if it doesn't improve.
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post #3202 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jzkarap View Post
I too had my set replaced. The new one has the same problem, but it's not as pronounced. I don't know if I should settle for this or try again. Is there anyone who has a 2014 E series with uniform lighting?
I don't have any issues with black screen uniformity but the grey uniformity is a deal breaker for me. I watch a lot of sports and the significant dirty screen effect is just too much for me to deal with. Other than that the TV was perfect (great black levels, great contrast and great for gaming). However, I need a tv that can perform well in the big 3 (games, movies and sports). The search continues.

Back on topic, There are good panels out there so if this is your only issue I would try to return it and get a new one.
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post #3203 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben7337 View Post
Random question, but does your 700i-b3 have fairly inconsistent backlighting? It almost is like I can see the backlight zones on the tv, when displaying an all white screen. However what really gets me is the dark lines on the left and right side of the screen. It's like the backlight just isn't lighting part of the edges and it looks bad, though I guess not any worse than plenty of other issues people have had with other edge lit tv's, and it's not visible in normal viewing really.
I haven't noticed any of the issues you mentioned yet on the set. The picture looks good to me so far. The only problem I've noticed is when the image switches very quickly to a bright image from a darker image, there is a slight, millisecond delay where the TV almost seems like it is reset. This happens when I change channels or use skip on my DVR to go back.
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post #3204 of 3209 Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by seneschal View Post
I haven't noticed any of the issues you mentioned yet on the set. The picture looks good to me so far. The only problem I've noticed is when the image switches very quickly to a bright image from a darker image, there is a slight, millisecond delay where the TV almost seems like it is reset. This happens when I change channels or use skip on my DVR to go back.
Have you tried making the room dark and turning off the active led zones? That way when a black image displays, the led lights are all on, I tested last night and it was bad, but now with lights on in the room, I can't even notice it.

Overall the tv is pretty good for black levels in general though, and is pretty decent aside from the backlight issues which most people probably wouldn't notice or care about.
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I don't have any issues with black screen uniformity but the grey uniformity is a deal breaker for me. I watch a lot of sports and the significant dirty screen effect is just too much for me to deal with. Other than that the TV was perfect (great black levels, great contrast and great for gaming). However, I need a tv that can perform well in the big 3 (games, movies and sports). The search continues.

Back on topic, There are good panels out there so if this is your only issue I would try to return it and get a new one.
Is the "Dirty Screen" something than can be fixed through firmware updates? Is there any sort of repair for it? I just wish that Vizio would listen to our complaints and really spend the time to Get It Right! It's the details that count.
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post #3206 of 3209 Old Today, 11:38 AM
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Thoughts on “Black Detail” Setting

I am admittedly a bit OCD when it comes to calibration, call it a hobby. I probably spend more time playing around with Calman on my E700i-B3 then I do watching content on the TV. I’ve spent quite a bit time messing around with the “Black Detail” setting and have a few thoughts about it, but I am interested to hear the thoughts and experiences of others. Below I’ve outlined some of the pluses and minuses of this setting followed by my conclusions.

The Good:

This is one of the better black-management features I’ve encountered. If you don’t have a colorimeter and calibration software, and don’t care to pursue professional calibration, then you may want to turn Black Detail on. In some ways, Black Detail addresses some of the goals of a good gamma curve. Basically it is attempting to keep true blacks, black, while preserving black detail (i.e. avoiding black crush). The “Medium” setting seems to be the best at achieving these goals. The “High” setting causes something that can only be described as extreme black crush. Actually, High seems to go way beyond black crush and seems to make nearly everything look black. As far as I am concerned, High is useless. The “Low” setting is better, but tends to wash out blacks. “Medium” appears to have effects that are somewhat analogous to a 2.2 gamma curve. With some major caveats, see below, this setting can actually improve the picture of an uncalibrated set.

The Bad:

If you’re into calibration, you probably don’t want to use this setting. Because it produces dynamic changes in the picture, you can’t really calibrate with this setting turned on. Doing so is like chasing a moving target. If you calibrate with Black Detail off and then turn it on when done, you will seriously screw up your carefully calibrated curve. While the manual claims that Black detail adjusts the overall brightness of the picture depending on what is displayed on the screen, it seems to do much more than this. In fact, the brightness setting appears to be the least affected parameter. Black Detail also causes some significant changes in contrast. The setting significantly lowers contrast in scenes that have a large amount of white. While shifts in contrast with this setting are understandable, more bizarrely, the setting significantly punches up color saturation. If you set Color then turn Black Detail on, you will need to go back and readjust Color again, and possibly Tint, to assure accurate color and natural skin tones. Finally, even on the Medium setting, Black Detail still tends to produce some mild to moderate black crush in certain types of scenes.

Conclusion:

If you typically use factory preset picture modes or only adjust a few basic parameters using a disk, then I can recommend the Black Detail - Medium setting. Play around with it. If your picture improves, then use it.

If you own calibration equipment or have paid to have your TV calibrated, calibrate with Black Detail off and then leave it off. If you have a well calibrated gamma curve that is appropriate for the lighting level of your room, then you don’t need what this setting does. If your TV is properly calibrated, then this setting will not help the picture, but will only harm it.

So that’s where I’m at on this topic, but again, I’d love to hear the thoughts of others.

Chris
What settings did you end up landing on? My replacement set comes soon. I typically spend a few hours tweaking with the WOW and HD709 calibration disk. The 11 point scale seems impossible without a meter. My current tv just had an update with a gamma setting now available.
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post #3207 of 3209 Old Today, 01:09 PM
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What settings did you end up landing on? My replacement set comes soon. I typically spend a few hours tweaking with the WOW and HD709 calibration disk. The 11 point scale seems impossible without a meter. My current tv just had an update with a gamma setting now available.
I'm not at home now to be able to pull the settings off my set. I certainly would be more than happy to share them if I were. However, having said that, I am extremely skeptical about applying calibration settings from one panel to another panel. If that worked, then the factory "Calibrated" profile should be pretty good, but it's not. I think it's entirely likely that using calibration settings from another panel could make yours actually look worse.

For instance, reds on my panel are not very accurate and there was also quite a bit of red push throughout most of the grey scale. So, I've made some pretty hefty corrections to reds, both in color calibration and in grey scale. Now, if your panel handles reds better than mine, and you apply my extreme corrections, you could end up with extremely inaccurate reds that look worse then if you hadn't used my settings. So I don't really recommend using settings from another panel.

As to the new gamma setting with the most recent firmware update: I completely recalibrated from scratch after the update. I like that fact that I can now select a gamma curve and then calibrate to that curve. No one knew what the default baseline was previously so this is an improvement. However, it was unclear to me what effect the new gamma settings would have on existing calibrations so it seemed best to just start over.

If you don't have a meter and don't do a full 11-point grey scale calibration, then there's probably not much reason to do a whole new calibration. I would probably just set gamma to 2.2 and leave it, assuming you have a medium to dim amount of ambient light. If it's a pitch black theater room you might experiment with a 2.4 gamma setting. If you have a very bright room, maybe with some direct sunlight or something, you might experiment with a 2.0 gamma setting.
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post #3208 of 3209 Old Today, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulater View Post
I'm not at home now to be able to pull the settings off my set. I certainly would be more than happy to share them if I were. However, having said that, I am extremely skeptical about applying calibration settings from one panel to another panel. If that worked, then the factory "Calibrated" profile should be pretty good, but it's not. I think it's entirely likely that using calibration settings from another panel could make yours actually look worse.

For instance, reds on my panel are not very accurate and there was also quite a bit of red push throughout most of the grey scale. So, I've made some pretty hefty corrections to reds, both in color calibration and in grey scale. Now, if your panel handles reds better than mine, and you apply my extreme corrections, you could end up with extremely inaccurate reds that look worse then if you hadn't used my settings. So I don't really recommend using settings from another panel.

As to the new gamma setting with the most recent firmware update: I completely recalibrated from scratch after the update. I like that fact that I can now select a gamma curve and then calibrate to that curve. No one knew what the default baseline was previously so this is an improvement. However, it was unclear to me what effect the new gamma settings would have on existing calibrations so it seemed best to just start over.

If you don't have a meter and don't do a full 11-point grey scale calibration, then there's probably not much reason to do a whole new calibration. I would probably just set gamma to 2.2 and leave it, assuming you have a medium to dim amount of ambient light. If it's a pitch black theater room you might experiment with a 2.4 gamma setting. If you have a very bright room, maybe with some direct sunlight or something, you might experiment with a 2.0 gamma setting.
I agree with your assertion that settings may not be the same set to set. I'd still like to see your settings as my TV exhibited the same red push that you describe.

Casey
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post #3209 of 3209 Old Today, 06:27 PM
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A few questions

Has anyone measured the contrast ratio of the E500i-B1? Does anyone know why the 55" only has 12 led zones? Does David Katzmaier post contrast ratio numbers?

rtings.com says the 60" has a contrast of:
Black: 0.022 cd/m2
White: 100.8 cd/m2
Contrast: 4581 : 1

televisions.reviewed.com says the 48" has a contrast of:
Black: 0.042 cd/m2
White: 143 cd/m2
Contrast 3405 : 1

Does anyone know if this issue that David Katzmaier ran into with the 55" has been addressed?

"TV software/firmware version tested: V1.30.25.0854_133 (55-inch)

Unfortunately I ran into some issues with the 11-point grayscale system. Many times when I made adjustments they simply didn't seem to "take," showing no change regardless of how far I adjusted a particular setting. At other times the changes did take, but then I realized the system wasn't adjusting the labeled parameter, but an adjacent one instead. It also proved impossible to adjust anything from 70% to 100%, and I was mystified to find that 5% actually adjusted black level."
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post #3210 of 3209 Old Today, 07:18 PM
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Got my replacement. It's worse than the original.

Guess I'll just keep the original and keep Active Zones on
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