JVC UHD Models coming 10 bit panels - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I just saw this:

JVC Kenwood has jumped on the 4K bandwagon with three new Ultra HD LCD TVs at the 2014 International Consumer Electronics Show (CES). The 55-inch DM55UXA ($1,899.99), 65-inch DM65UXA ($2,499.99) and the largest JVC TV to date, the 85-inch DM85UXA ($9,999.99), are made for the JVC brand by AmTRAN Video Corp., an Irvine, Calif.-based LCD TV maker.

The new lineup has direct LED backlight and 10-bit color capabilities in the 3840 x 2160 resolution. The UHD TVs all feature a total of four HDMI inputs: two HDMI 1.4 ports and two HDMI 2.0 ports with HDCP 2.2 content protection. The units also have ClearMotion 240Hz processing and 50 million-to-one dynamic contrast ratio.

All three JVC 4K Ultra HD displays feature XinemaSound 3D, a proprietary suite of acoustic and digital signal processing technologies designed to elevate the audio performance from built-in TV speakers.

The models are built with Consumer Electronics Control (CEC) capabilities – a feature that allows end-users to easily control as many as 15 CEC compatible HDMI devices. The displays are also highlighted by a smart TV platform that delivers access to streaming audio, video, games, and multimedia services. The displays also come with a sleek remote with a full QWERTY keyboard.

“We keep hearing that consumers are looking for a compelling reason to make the leap to Ultra HD,” says Drew Pragliola, senior vice president of sales and marketing at AmTRAN Video Corp. “With our new UHD displays, I think we’ve given them three compelling reasons, with a feature-packed lineup of high performance, next-generation TVs, in a wide-ranging selection of screen sizes perfect for virtually any environment.


This almost sounds better than the new Vizio's!
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 12:29 PM
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There doesn't seem to be much interest in JVC around here. I didn't even know they still made TV's. Sony, Samsung, Vizio and Sharp seem to get all the attention. I'm interested in a 75"+ display. The 2014 JVC's seem to be reasonably price but I don't know the quality of their TVs.

 

Does JVC have a history with LCD/LED? If so, what's their reputation?

 

I know FALD is the best but where does Direct Lit fit on the hierarchy? Does the JVC have Local Dimming? It must have some type of dimming to claim a 50,000,000:1 contrast ratio.

 

How does Direct Lit with Local Dimming compare to Edge Lit with Local/Micro Dimming? I guess if it's Direct Lit with no local dimming that's a problem? 

 

Thanks.

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post #3 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 01:00 PM
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There doesn't seem to be much interest in JVC around here. I didn't even know they still made TV's.
They don't and haven't for some time. Someone else just slapping their name on their products.
http://www.twice.com/video/tv/amtran-slates-jvc-brand-tv-relaunch/31173

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post #4 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

They don't and haven't for some time. Someone else just slapping their name on their products.
http://www.twice.com/video/tv/amtran-slates-jvc-brand-tv-relaunch/31173

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll take a 2014 Vizio over one of these any day of the week...

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post #5 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll take a 2014 Vizio over one of these any day of the week...

-fafrd

Why? I'm just curious. Isn't the same company (Amtran) making both Vizio and JVC? I just did a quick google search, and it looks like basically AmTran said since Vizio isn't utilizing 100% of their manufacturing, they are going to make JVC TVs as well. Vizio and JVC seem to be the same TV with a different badge. And I personally would take a JVC over Vizio any day of the week - even though it's still the same TV smile.gif The reason being - I've had my 40-inch JVC for the last 6-7 years, and it's been great, I love it.
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post #6 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

Why? I'm just curious. Isn't the same company (Amtran) making both Vizio and JVC? I just did a quick google search, and it looks like basically AmTran said since Vizio isn't utilizing 100% of their manufacturing, they are going to make JVC TVs as well. Vizio and JVC seem to be the same TV with a different badge. And I personally would take a JVC over Vizio any day of the week - even though it's still the same TV smile.gif The reason being - I've had my 40-inch JVC for the last 6-7 years, and it's been great, I love it.
AMTRAN announced that Vizio had cut their use of their panels considerably from 2013, which almost 40% of Vizio TV'S. JVC(AMTRAN) definitely offer a much better audio solution then Vizio,but I can't speak for their UI or video processing.
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post #7 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

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Originally Posted by fafrd 

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll take a 2014 Vizio over one of these any day of the week...

-fafrd

Why? I'm just curious. Isn't the same company (Amtran) making both Vizio and JVC? I just did a quick google search, and it looks like basically AmTran said since Vizio isn't utilizing 100% of their manufacturing, they are going to make JVC TVs as well. Vizio and JVC seem to be the same TV with a different badge. And I personally would take a JVC over Vizio any day of the week - even though it's still the same TV smile.gif The reason being - I've had my 40-inch JVC for the last 6-7 years, and it's been great, I love it.

Doesn't matter to me who manufactures the LCD panels (as long as it is one of the established, high quality suppliers) and it doesn't matter to me whose name has been slapped on the front for marketing purposes (whether JVC, Poloroid, or whatever).

It's the quality of the engineering team that matters to me. When I first heard about these JVC panels I thought, 'wow- JVC should have some pretty high-quality stuff and their pricing looks almost as good as Vizio's!' Now that I've learned that JVCs engineers have had nothing to do with the design of these TVs (except perhaps supplying some higher-quality audio components), I'll take the engineering effort of Vizio/Dolby over Amtran any day.

Don't get me wrong, 5 years ago I would have viewed Vizio exactly the same way as this JVC/Amtran marketing sham (rebadged poorly-engineered copycat products out of China). But Vizio has evolved and seems to now have made a real investment in engineering their own TVs with Dolby's assistance, and that initiative offers much more exciting potential to me than another 'me-too' low-end TV with better audio components.

I see much more possibility that the Visio Reference Series proves itself to be a new LED/LCD panel that surprises us with its picture quality, while the chance of any picture quality surprises from the JVC panels took a huge step backwards (to zero) once I learned that JVC has not been involved in the engineering of the product.

5 years from now, I may view these JVC/Amtran TVs in an entirely different light, but this year, if I am going to take a risk on something 'new', I am confident that Vizio is a far better bet than JVC/Amtran...

-fafrd

p.s. even if it were true that the Vizio UHDTVs and the JVC/Amtran UHDTVs are using the same Amtran panels, that does not mean they are anything like the same TVs. Backlighting, local dimming, upscaling, processing power are just a small subset of the design characteristics of a television that are influenced by the engineering effort and distinguishes the flagship designs from the 'me-too' TVs...
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post #8 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Doesn't matter to me who manufactures the LCD panels (as long as it is one of the established, high quality suppliers) and it doesn't matter to me whose name has been slapped on the front for marketing purposes (whether JVC, Poloroid, or whatever).

It's the quality of the engineering team that matters to me. When I first heard about these JVC panels I thought, 'wow- JVC should have some pretty high-quality stuff and their pricing looks almost as good as Vizio's!' Now that I've learned that JVCs engineers have had nothing to do with the design of these TVs (except perhaps supplying some higher-quality audio components), I'll take the engineering effort of Vizio/Dolby over Amtran any day.

Don't get me wrong, 5 years ago I would have viewed Vizio exactly the same way as this JVC/Amtran marketing sham (rebadged poorly-engineered copycat products out of China). But Vizio has evolved and seems to now have made a real investment in engineering their own TVs with Dolby's assistance, and that initiative offers much more exciting potential to me than another 'me-too' low-end TV with better audio components.

I see much more possibility that the Visio Reference Series proves itself to be a new LED/LCD panel that surprises us with its picture quality, while the chance of any picture quality surprises from the JVC panels took a huge step backwards (to zero) once I learned that JVC has not been involved in the engineering of the product.

5 years from now, I may view these JVC/Amtran TVs in an entirely different light, but this year, if I am going to take a risk on something 'new', I am confident that Vizio is a far better bet than JVC/Amtran...

-fafrd

p.s. even if it were true that the Vizio UHDTVs and the JVC/Amtran UHDTVs are using the same Amtran panels, that does not mean they are anything like the same TVs. Backlighting, local dimming, upscaling, processing power are just a small subset of the design characteristics of a television that are influenced by the engineering effort and distinguishes the flagship designs from the 'me-too' TVs...

Was there any announcement of Vizio engineering their own TVs? All I can find is that they only employ marketing and call center people - everything else is outsourced. I haven't been following Vizio at all, though - so I have no idea. I just remember reading how they didn't make any replacement parts, so once that TV was out of warranty, there was no way to fix it. Again, it was maybe a couple of years ago, so I don't know if that's still the case. I know their marketing people are better than average, and they like to make outrageous claims at CES - like back a few years when they announced their 70 inch TV at a super low price, which made huge waves here on the forum - and it never actually materialized - instead Sharp was the one with a 70 inch affordable TV. But Vizio had all the attention. Since then I just stopped reading about Vizio...
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post #9 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post

AMTRAN announced that Vizio had cut their use of their panels considerably from 2013, which almost 40% of Vizio TV'S. JVC(AMTRAN) definitely offer a much better audio solution then Vizio,but I can't speak for their UI or video processing.

That is interesting. I'm still pretty happy with my 70-inch Sharp, and I thought of maybe looking at the 79-inch Sony XBR as a replacement, but the 84-incher from JVC sounds pretty good as well.
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post #10 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

Was there any announcement of Vizio engineering their own TVs? All I can find is that they only employ marketing and call center people - everything else is outsourced. I haven't been following Vizio at all, though - so I have no idea.

Vizio is private, so very little is known about them.
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

I know their marketing people are better than average, and they like to make outrageous claims at CES - like back a few years when they announced their 70 inch TV at a super low price, which made huge waves here on the forum - and it never actually materialized - instead Sharp was the one with a 70 inch affordable TV. But Vizio had all the attention.

Everything I stated about Vizio is predicated on my perception that the partnership they have announced with Dolby is substantial. Of course, until we see the resulting products, all of this optimism is pure speculation (though the prototypes Vizio demonstrated at CES this year speak to a certain level of advanced engineering effort, regardless of how much contributed by Dolby and how much by Vizio).
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Since then I just stopped reading about Vizio...

Companies evolve, and virtually all of them start out at the bottom and work their way up. Hopefully 2014 s the year Vizio has chosen to prove to the world that they are a world-class TV company worthy of being considered in the top tier. If it's all marketing fluff with no substance and/or they prove incapable of exection, that is another story (though I still prefer the odds on Vizio over JVC/Amtran...).

-fafrd
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post #11 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Vizio is private, so very little is known about them.
Everything I stated about Vizio is predicated on my perception that the partnership they have announced with Dolby is substantial. Of course, until we see the resulting products, all of this optimism is pure speculation (though the prototypes Vizio demonstrated at CES this year speak to a certain level of advanced engineering effort, regardless of how much contributed by Dolby and how much by Vizio).
Companies evolve, and virtually all of them start out at the bottom and work their way up. Hopefully 2014 s the year Vizio has chosen to prove to the world that they are a world-class TV company worthy of being considered in the top tier. If it's all marketing fluff with no substance and/or they prove incapable of exection, that is another story (though I still prefer the odds on Vizio over JVC/Amtran...).

-fafrd


I see...thank you for the explanation.
All I could find was that Vizio employs about 400 people, all of them are call center and marketing. So whichever company makes their TVs probably makes a lot of other companies' TVs as well - Vizio doesn't seem to employ any actual engineers.
Also, the fact that Vizio cut back on their Amtran orders could be due to them switching to some cheaper Chinese-made panels/TVs - of course it's all my speculation, but to me it's just logical. They probably wouldn't switch to Japanese-made stuff from Sharp, or Korean-made from Samsung/LG - those would be a lot more expensive than Chinese-made. In any case, I think a huge part of Vizio's success is those few hundred of marketing people. For some reason Japanese just don't spend much money on marketing - and that is how Samsung and then Vizio pulled ahead. All my wild guesses, of course smile.gif
But too bad JVC didn't get much coverage - I would be curious to see more about the 84-incher. Just some good memories with JVC, I guess - in addition to my 40-incher I also have this bad boy below, still working after probably 30 years in service smile.gif
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post #12 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

I see...thank you for the explanation.
All I could find was that Vizio employs about 400 people, all of them are call center and marketing. So whichever company makes their TVs probably makes a lot of other companies' TVs as well - Vizio doesn't seem to employ any actual engineers.
Also, the fact that Vizio cut back on their Amtran orders could be due to them switching to some cheaper Chinese-made panels/TVs - of course it's all my speculation, but to me it's just logical. They probably wouldn't switch to Japanese-made stuff from Sharp, or Korean-made from Samsung/LG - those would be a lot more expensive than Chinese-made. In any case, I think a huge part of Vizio's success is those few hundred of marketing people. For some reason Japanese just don't spend much money on marketing - and that is how Samsung and then Vizio pulled ahead. All my wild guesses, of course smile.gif
But too bad JVC didn't get much coverage - I would be curious to see more about the 84-incher. Just some good memories with JVC, I guess - in addition to my 40-incher I also have this bad boy below, still working after probably 30 years in service smile.gif
Vizio panels are being manufactured by Sharp,LG,AUOptronics and various other manufacturers.
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20131218PD217.html
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post #13 of 23 Old 01-26-2014, 09:11 PM
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Will the 10-bit panels noticeably improve color reproduction?
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post #14 of 23 Old 01-27-2014, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Will the 10-bit panels noticeably improve color reproduction?

No, there's nothing new about these JVC 10-bit panel TVs, they won't perform differently than anything else.
10-bit panels are used in most 50" 1080p LCD TVs already.

In all UHD TVs only 10 or 12-bit panels are used.
The reason why 10-bit panels are mandatory in UHD standard is because of the higher color gamut of Rec. 2020.
This is simply to ensure that the color gradation performance is at least the same as 8-bit Full HD TVs with lower color gamut.
UHD is not just about higher resolution it also will also bring a bigger color gamut.
Nowadays this advantage in color gamut is not yet exploited because of lack of content created under Rec. 2020 but in the future it should be noticeable.

I have to say the "10-bit panels" reference in the title of this thread is completely unnecessary and can mislead people into thinking that it is some sort of a novelty when it's not.
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post #16 of 23 Old 01-27-2014, 04:39 AM
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No, there's nothing new about these JVC 10-bit panel TVs, they won't perform differently than anything else.
10-bit panels are used in most 50" 1080p LCD TVs already.

In all UHD TVs only 10 or 12-bit panels are used.
The reason why 10-bit panels are mandatory in UHD standard is because of the higher color gamut of Rec. 2020.
This is simply to ensure that the color gradation performance is at least the same as 8-bit Full HD TVs with lower color gamut.
UHD is not just about higher resolution it also will also bring a bigger color gamut.
Nowadays this advantage in color gamut is not yet exploited because of lack of content created under Rec. 2020 but in the future it should be noticeable.

I have to say the "10-bit panels" reference in the title of this thread is completely unnecessary and can mislead people into thinking that it is some sort of a novelty when it's not.

This is not true. The Vizio P series will use 8-bit UHD panels. You can't assume every UHD tv will have a 10-bit panel, especially the cheaper ones.
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post #17 of 23 Old 01-27-2014, 06:07 AM
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Well, I don't know about Vizio but all UHD TVs I know are using 10-bit panels or at least working as such.
If that's true about Vizio P series It's possible the 8-bit panels are emulating 10-bit panels with some dithering, this could be a possibility.
If Vizio UHD TVs use simple 8-bit panels without further dithering, then they are not up to Rec. 2020 Standard and their will either show worse color gradation than other UHD TVs or their color gamut is also not up to standard.

I guess the upgrade to Rec. 2020 is more of a progression made a little bit at a time so not necessarilly all UHD TVs will conform to the same specs today as you say, but as the things become more widespread in content most TVs will eventualy have to cope with it just like most current TVs cope with Rec. 709.
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Originally Posted by vladi123456 View Post

I see...thank you for the explanation.
All I could find was that Vizio employs about 400 people, all of them are call center and marketing. So whichever company makes their TVs probably makes a lot of other companies' TVs as well - Vizio doesn't seem to employ any actual engineers.
Also, the fact that Vizio cut back on their Amtran orders could be due to them switching to some cheaper Chinese-made panels/TVs - of course it's all my speculation, but to me it's just logical. They probably wouldn't switch to Japanese-made stuff from Sharp, or Korean-made from Samsung/LG - those would be a lot more expensive than Chinese-made. In any case, I think a huge part of Vizio's success is those few hundred of marketing people. For some reason Japanese just don't spend much money on marketing - and that is how Samsung and then Vizio pulled ahead. All my wild guesses, of course smile.gif
But too bad JVC didn't get much coverage - I would be curious to see more about the 84-incher. Just some good memories with JVC, I guess - in addition to my 40-incher I also have this bad boy below, still working after probably 30 years in service smile.gif

Funny, my dad has had that same Radio for more then 30 years (and it is still going strong)! JVC sure does know how to build good products... Too bad that JVC won't have anything to do with these new UHDTVs (other than having their name slapped on the front, which may end up harming the reputation they have worked so hard to achieve...).

-fafrd
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post #19 of 23 Old 01-27-2014, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Doesn't matter to me who manufactures the LCD panels (as long as it is one of the established, high quality suppliers) and it doesn't matter to me whose name has been slapped on the front for marketing purposes (whether JVC, Poloroid, or whatever).

It's the quality of the engineering team that matters to me. When I first heard about these JVC panels I thought, 'wow- JVC should have some pretty high-quality stuff and their pricing looks almost as good as Vizio's!' Now that I've learned that JVCs engineers have had nothing to do with the design of these TVs (except perhaps supplying some higher-quality audio components), I'll take the engineering effort of Vizio/Dolby over Amtran any day.

Don't get me wrong, 5 years ago I would have viewed Vizio exactly the same way as this JVC/Amtran marketing sham (rebadged poorly-engineered copycat products out of China). But Vizio has evolved and seems to now have made a real investment in engineering their own TVs with Dolby's assistance, and that initiative offers much more exciting potential to me than another 'me-too' low-end TV with better audio components.

I see much more possibility that the Visio Reference Series proves itself to be a new LED/LCD panel that surprises us with its picture quality, while the chance of any picture quality surprises from the JVC panels took a huge step backwards (to zero) once I learned that JVC has not been involved in the engineering of the product.

5 years from now, I may view these JVC/Amtran TVs in an entirely different light, but this year, if I am going to take a risk on something 'new', I am confident that Vizio is a far better bet than JVC/Amtran...

-fafrd

p.s. even if it were true that the Vizio UHDTVs and the JVC/Amtran UHDTVs are using the same Amtran panels, that does not mean they are anything like the same TVs. Backlighting, local dimming, upscaling, processing power are just a small subset of the design characteristics of a television that are influenced by the engineering effort and distinguishes the flagship designs from the 'me-too' TVs...


My experience with my Vizio XVT553 full array from a few years back was not good. I do think that Vizio buys other brand parts and assembles TV's. After my warranty was up, service was impossible to get. My source of parts was primarily limited to Ebay from owners of dead Vizio's. I do hope they improve their replacement parts system as it was disappointing.
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post #20 of 23 Old 01-27-2014, 01:39 PM
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My experience with my Vizio XVT553 full array from a few years back was not good. I do think that Vizio buys other brand parts and assembles TV's. After my warranty was up, service was impossible to get. My source of parts was primarily limited to Ebay from owners of dead Vizio's. I do hope they improve their replacement parts system as it was disappointing.

Well obviously, if Vizio attempts to serve the high-end market with a similar level of service, all of the effort they are putting into the Reference Series and trying to differentiate themselves in 2014 by making "The Best TV in the World" will be doomed to failure...

Companies evolve, and so all we can do is watch for the early reports and ongoing customer satisfaction with the 2014 panels to understand if Vizio has learned from the disappointment it has caused many of its customers (including you :-) over the past years and has changed their approach to spare parts and customer service to be more aligned with that delivered by the top tier brands like Sony, Samsung, and Sharp...

My point is that Vizio appears to be making a real investment in R&D and Marketing this year and it would be a real shame (and a real waste) if they were not prepared to back that investment up with corresponding investments in execution and customer service.

We'll just have to wait and see... (though I am certainly ready to give them a chance and not ready to dismiss Vizio's 2014 initiative because of past poor performance).

And back to the topic of this thread, which is JVC, I certainly believe it is a better bet to take a chance on the 'new' Vizio than the 'new' JVC (which is noting more than a marketing front for Amtran).

-fafrd
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post #21 of 23 Old 01-28-2014, 09:30 PM
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JVC was best known for their LcOS Sets, I still have a 61" model. When free of dust, and calibrated, they were one of the best 1080P Sets out there. Only Sony also made LcOS sets and they had way more problems with theirs. (Green Blob) But thin and uber bright TVs meant more than PQ to 99% of consumers, so they flew to wayside. Interesting to see their name on a re-branded product, for many years they were known for innovation. (Remember VHS, they created VHS-HQ)

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post #22 of 23 Old 01-29-2014, 03:17 AM
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Both JVC & Sony had problems which id why both dropped the technology which is too bad as it would of been the best by far at the time. Then Samsung decided to drop after only two years, what was better with their DLP TV's replacing a lamp with a triad of LED's. Real stupid move, not to mention a waste of money. Sounds as something the Pentagon would do. tongue.gif

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post #23 of 23 Old 09-04-2014, 08:57 AM
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Has anyone heard more on these, or was this all just vaporware? I was actually interested in the 85" version of this, since it was to be directly lit instead of edge. As we now move into fall, I would expect to hear something if they were actually coming to market.
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